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Old 04-14-2020, 02:27 PM   #1
DRG-ler
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Default Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Hi Guys,

I would like to install some copper water pipes for heating in my 1930s Tudor. These should be placed long on the left of the cylinder head. But since there is no good fastening option there, I would like to build brackets that are fastened with the cylinder head nuts.

How are your experiences with loosening and tightening the nuts regarding the tightness of the head gasket? My head gasket is already sweating a bit on the left. A mix of petrol and coal comes out above the engine number. But not so much that I want to replace the cylinder head gasket. A drop every 100km.

Now I have concerns that the conversion will make it worse.
What is the experience like when retrofitting the heat protection for the ignition distributor? This is also assembled this way.

What are your experiences with the material pairings cast iron / stainless steel in relation to corrosion?

Thank you in advance.

Andy
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Old 04-14-2020, 04:02 PM   #2
Mike Peters
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

It doesn't take much head bolt loosening to get a water leak. A friend removed his popout head bolt to work on the distributor over winter. By spring there was water/antifreeze in #3 cylinder. It messed up his engine to the point that he had to tear it down and get the cylinders bored out and oversize pistons installed.
If you take off head bolt nuts, replace them as soon as possible. Minutes, not days.
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Old 04-14-2020, 04:56 PM   #3
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Do not know if it will cause gasket problems or warping of the head. During re-torque, or loosening the head nut, it is recommended to drain coolant so the coolant level is below the head. Done to prevent seepage/leaks while the head is not properly torqued.


As Mike posts, do it as quickly as you can.


After a couple of thermal cycles, and some miles perhaps do an additional re-torque on the head to play things safe.
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Old 04-14-2020, 06:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Just use the water inlet elbow bolts to anchor your tubes.
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Old 04-14-2020, 06:47 PM   #5
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Weeping along the left side of the engine is almost expected on a Model A engine so I wouldn't get excited about it. As for loosening a nut, I once had the thread in the block strip on me when I was retorquing the nuts on a newly rebuilt engine. It was one of the two that hold the water outlet as well. I knew the thread was not very good but I also knew I could fix it later if it let go. When it went, I drove the car 25 miles with that stud in my pocket to a friend's place to install a Helicoil and the head gasket was fine (still is).
In your case, if you are concerned, I suggest draining the coolant to below the head and go for your life.
BTW, Why are you opting to do things that way? There would be no drilling into the head if you were to put a short length of metal tube in the top radiator hose for your source of warm water and return it to the one running from the bottom of the radiator to the engine. A thermostat fitted above the attachment in the top hose would help the flow.
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Old 04-15-2020, 01:52 AM   #6
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

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Sorry, I may have mispronounced myself. I don't want to drill holes in the cylinder head!
I have already upgraded this thermostat.
https://vintageprecision.com/product...ing/index.html
This has two connections on the side. I want to use the small one for a temperature sensor and the big one for heating.
When I installed the thermostat, I just did it that way. Screw turned down, hose connection removed, thermostat on top and screwed tight. Has held, is still tight.
Only now, with the screws long ago to the block, I'm afraid of tension.
The second connection at the bottom of the elbow pipe was already there.
The water must be drained completely during this conversion.
Ultimately, it's a minor intervention. Remove screw, put sheet metal bracket underneath and screw back on ...

Maybe you should just let it matter. Just do it and hope it will be good. If not, then you have to rework.

What torque do the cylinder head screws actually need? I don't want to tighten more than the factory specification. That would certainly cause tension.

After 100-200 km you can unscrew the candle and see if water enters the cylinder.

Sorry for my bad English.
Written with Google Translator.

Thanks from Berlin
Andy
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Old 04-15-2020, 07:14 AM   #7
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Head torque - 55 lbs.


Others can comment on torqueing the upper block/head radiator "elbow". Some people like to torque at less than 55 lbs. to prevent the "ears" from breaking off the elbow.
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Old 04-15-2020, 07:21 AM   #8
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Drain some water out of the system to below the head........
Paul in CT
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Old 05-04-2020, 07:53 AM   #9
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

thanks all
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Old 05-04-2020, 08:18 AM   #10
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo View Post
Drain some water out of the system to below the head........
Paul in CT
and
Quote:
Do not know if it will cause gasket problems or warping of the head. During re-torque, or loosening the head nut, it is recommended to drain coolant so the coolant level is below the head. Done to prevent seepage/leaks while the head is not properly torqued.

A leak path, once established, will continue to leak. Not having made that path is much in your favor.



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Old 05-04-2020, 08:37 AM   #11
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

as far as the heat protector for the dist.it is not needed,just looks pretty,install a burnout proof condensor and you are all good.gutten tag.
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Old 05-05-2020, 04:18 PM   #12
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG-ler View Post
Hi Guys,

I would like to install some copper water pipes for heating in my 1930s Tudor. These should be placed long on the left of the cylinder head. But since there is no good fastening option there, I would like to build brackets that are fastened with the cylinder head nuts.

How are your experiences with loosening and tightening the nuts regarding the tightness of the head gasket? My head gasket is already sweating a bit on the left. A mix of petrol and coal comes out above the engine number. But not so much that I want to replace the cylinder head gasket. A drop every 100km.

Now I have concerns that the conversion will make it worse.
What is the experience like when retrofitting the heat protection for the ignition distributor? This is also assembled this way.

What are your experiences with the material pairings cast iron / stainless steel in relation to corrosion?

Thank you in advance.

Andy
As you describe the cylinder head slight creosoting issue, I am going to suggest, you first, do a loosening and tightening of all cylinder head bolts with final FT/lb number of 55. There is sequence of performing this bolt tightening that will assure doing it the right way. Once that is done, and you can clean the existing residue, I would run the engine a bit on the road or ?? however and see if the leaks have slowed or better yet stopped. There is one Headbolt nut by the distributor and it can be loosened and tightened using a crowsfoot wrench. My concern is the head leaking and next the clamp bolting of water pipe! Hope things work out!
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Old 05-05-2020, 09:58 PM   #13
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Do not know if mentioned previously, drain coolant below the level of the head before torqueing or re-torqueing.
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Old 05-25-2020, 02:36 PM   #14
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

So ... I risked it. A little over two weeks ago I dared to do the conversion and loosened the cylinder head nuts individually. The engine was without water! Then tightened again with torque, and the head is still tight! The aim of the campaign was to create a mounting option for my heating water pipes. The conversion is now complete and works great! After 2-3 minutes, the heater brings warm air!

Here are two pictures ...






A first way to tidy up the engine compartment again.

Greetings

Andy
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Old 05-25-2020, 09:37 PM   #15
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Wow, that is a very interesting and creative set-up.
If I didn't know any better I'd think you were an American farmer back in the '30's.
That's the way to think outside the box.
Good job
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Old 05-25-2020, 11:28 PM   #16
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Wow, that's impressive.
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Old 05-26-2020, 01:41 AM   #17
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Yes, I have already seen some conversions to water heating. But 98% of the conversions had one thing in common. The heating cables were completely made of rubber, and so long that you could wrap them around the engine 3 times. Only fastened with cable ties, really not nice. I wanted a solution that could be from Henry Ford or that he would at least have found good. I think I've found a good way.

If I had found a way to bend the whole copper line out of one piece, I would have saved myself from wrapping it around. But all attempts failed. With soft annealing, with preheating, WITH and WITHOUT sand in the tube, I was not able to bend such tight radii. Even a pipe bender would have had a bending diameter of at least 4 ". So I had to take pre-made bends out of the water installation and solder them myself. To hide this, I then" insulated "the pipe.

Greetings
Andy
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Old 05-26-2020, 07:52 AM   #18
1931 flamingo
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Looks like the tubes run up the firewall, where to??
Paul in CT
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Old 05-26-2020, 10:32 AM   #19
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Yes you are right. A heating heat exchanger with fan would be installed on the back of the firewall. The device itself is called "Bosch car heater" and was offered for retrofitting on the accessories market from 1936. So it is an authentic and antique heater that fits the car perfectly.






In the second picture you can see hose connections. Hoses for the front window defrosting have been and will be connected to these.
I am currently working on an air flow distributor, which is located behind the Dashrail and blows the air out of the hoses against the windscreen. The raw model made of wood is already finished. Over the next few weeks, this will be read in with a 3D scanner, processed on a computer and then printed out on a 3D printer. The goal is to create a ventilation nozzle for the windscreen that is not seen. The air hoses are routed under the tank on the left and right. At least that's the wish.



Here again a description from the manufacturer.

https://www.bosch.com/de/stories/the...als-und-heute/


And the original instruction manual.
https://www.yumpu.com/de/document/re...-robert-bosch-



Greetings Andy
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Old 02-16-2021, 08:49 AM   #20
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Default Re: Loosen / tighten individual cylinder head nuts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
Weeping along the left side of the engine is almost expected on a Model A engine so I wouldn't get excited about it. As for loosening a nut, I once had the thread in the block strip on me when I was retorquing the nuts on a newly rebuilt engine. It was one of the two that hold the water outlet as well. I knew the thread was not very good but I also knew I could fix it later if it let go. When it went, I drove the car 25 miles with that stud in my pocket to a friend's place to install a Helicoil and the head gasket was fine (still is).
In your case, if you are concerned, I suggest draining the coolant to below the head and go for your life.
BTW, Why are you opting to do things that way? There would be no drilling into the head if you were to put a short length of metal tube in the top radiator hose for your source of warm water and return it to the one running from the bottom of the radiator to the engine. A thermostat fitted above the attachment in the top hose would help the flow.
I am new to Model A's, but mine runs fine but does weep at a small spot on the left side between the cylinder head and block. I was going to replace the head gasket to fix this, but according to your comment this is normal? please explain further.
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