seat belt photo request - 1931 slant windshield

[townsedan1]

Hello everyone. This is my first post on fordbarn – I just bought my first model A!

My first order of business is to install seat belts. I have spent the last week reviewing all of the information in the forums and have already learned a lot. I feel well-informed regarding the seat belt discussion for Model A’s - I have seen the write-ups and illustrations of 3 point harnesses, lap belts, how people have created a notch for seat belts to pass through the front seat (in my type of Model A), how they have run the belts under the sliding seat assembly, etc. After much thought and consideration, I believe I am going to install lap belts. My expectations of the additional safety offered by seat belts in a car this old are realistic.

I was wondering if anyone has detailed photos of lap belts installed in a car similar to mine – one with the adjustable front bench seat. I can’t seem to visualize how the front seat belts look when viewed from the back seats – can you see them down by the floor or are they hidden by vertical carpet? I have seen where some members have attached the middle front seat anchor points to a metal cross member that exists under the body, in line with the B pillar. After looking at that location in my car, I’m wondering if that is too far forward to mount the belts (for me) – I like to have the seat as far back as I can get it. If anyone has any photos of a similar installation showing this area from the back and sides (by the B pillar), I’d love to see them.

Thanks to everyone for all of the information on here. I have learned a lot already by reviewing the detailed photos of some 3 point installations, articles about seat belts, etc. Can’t thank everyone enough.

Mike

[Lona]

As an avid proponent of seat belts in antique cars, attached are some photos of an installation in the front seat of our 1931 Chrysler sedan which may not be directly applicable to your vehicle but might give you some ideas for your own installation.

This car has an adjustable seat so the belts had to be mounted to the car cross member and then up through holes cut in the oak seat base. These holes had to be large enough to allow the seat to move without binding the belts.

You are wise to take precautions against possible accidents. Good luck with your installation.

Glen

[clocey]

Mike
Thanks for asking this question as I have been struggling with the same issue on my '30 Fordor.
Glen
Thanks for sharing the photos. As they say....a picture is worth a thousand words!

Curt

[Pete]

"I feel well-informed regarding the seat belt discussion for Model A’s."

That may be, BUT, there isn't one in ten seat belt installations in model A's that are much more than self satisfaction.

The primary thing to remember is, there should be absolutely NO engineering compromises for "looks".
If you do not understand proper seat belt installation, the best place to look is the rule books of almost any racing organization.
That won't tell you exactly where to drill holes in a model A but it will show basic angles, type of hardware and anchor points.

Remember, a Mickey Mouse installation could get you set of wings.

[1930artdeco]

Welcome to the club! I will be following this thread closely as I would like to add them to my car. also, we love pictures.

Mike

[mhsprecher]

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One of the Les Andrews books talks about installing seat belts. I have them in my TS, but I won't be able to post pics until this weekend.

[townsedan1]

Thank you to everyone for your replies. Glen - thanks for the photos. Those are very helpful! I have attached a couple quick pics of our car. As someone mentioned, I want to be sure I do the install correctly, and with safety paramount over anything else. mhsprecher - I'd love to see additional photos of your install if you can find the time.

In the second photo I attached, you can see the area I'm questioning with regard to where the belts would penetrate the back of the seat assembly.

Thanks again to everyone.

Mike

[mhsprecher]

My photos are not great, but I hope they provide some information. My installation is similar to Lona's, with the seat belt mounts going through the wood seat base. Under the car, the bolts for the belts go through a piece of U channel steel that is mounted under there. The outboard belts appear to mount through where the seat frame mounts to the frame. I did not install the belts. They were on the car when I bought it. I installed belts in my roadster, although I have not installed them for the rumble seat yet.

This the outboard passenger side belt.

This shows the middle belts. There is a slot in the wood frame that the belts thread through.

This is how they thread through the frame. I cannot see where they connect under the seat.

This is under the car. You should be able to see the U channel steel that the bolts for the belts go through that is under the wooden crossmember.

This is the frame side rail, where the outboard belt attaches to the frame.

This is behind the back seat. The belt attaches to the wooden crossmember. I could not see where it was bolted under the car. That I cannot see the attachment does not give me a lot of confidence in the mounting.

This is the side of the back seat where the outboard belt mounts.

[30FordA50]

Great thread idea as I too have been through just about every article and am still apprehensive in getting into the installation of my 1930 TS. Pictures will definitely help a lot!

[townsedan1]

Thank you for the photos! Very helpful!

Mike

[TechnoMayor]

Here's some pics from my RPU seat belt install. I realize it's a different model, but it might give you some ideas.

https://plus.google.com/photos/10156...30220348625697

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I do not want to be the negative force but there are major differences between a wooden-silled Fordor and a later S/W Fordor. I have also looked at several seat belt installations that have come thru my shop and I must tell you they were a real sense of "false-security" restraint systems installed in Model-As out there.

I have seen some where the belts were anchored to a frame rail, ...which it is repeatedly spoken that this is a huge 'No-No'. The seat carriage on a S/W is a little different and I cannot tell you how many belts I have seen solely attached to the seat carriage itself. When this happens, only the "toothed flatbar" adjuster is holding the seat stationary. When that bends/breaks, now the seat in on a set of rails free to travel in any direction.

I have also seen seat belts anchored to the rear footwell sheetmetal, ...when you look closely will reveal it is only nailed into the wood. Slants aren't much better with their riveted in. Again, factor in G-forces of a frontal impact or roll-over and you quickly realize the sheetmetal is not substantial enough. Does adding a bar to reinforce add any attachment rigidity to where the tub is installed? I don't believe it does.


Now, here is the loaded question, ....is "something" better than 'nothing'? I think it is -HOWEVER the issue as it was explained to me by legal counsel is when you are doing the installation, then any passenger that occupies that seat is expecting that belt to keep them anchored no differently than a modern vehicle. My attorney has the position that it is very plausible that I/You could be held responsible if I/You install any type of restraint system installed in a Model-A failed to perform exactly as the occupant (-or the heirs) expected it to.

Again, I do not have all the answers but please think this through completely.

[Brother Hesekiel]

Under California law, your attorney would be absolutely correct in his assessment. As the owner of a repair shop, I would therefore not perform any questionable installation that is relevant to safety. Even if the vehicle owner expresses that he's okay with it, that something is better than nothing, all of those odds are off when the heirs and their attorneys are in charge. This is nowhere better seen than in racing. Sign all the release forms you want, but once you die in a crash, the game changes.

[H. L. Chauvin]

It is always good to discuss caution with our Model A's..

There are many good honest lawyers in all 50 states; however, I think this rule may apply today, as explained to me by a good lawyer friend.

Our Courthouses are like a Casino.

The judge and/or jury resembles the slot machine(s).

It is always easy to find a gambling lawyer to enter the Casino, through in a case, & odds are after the handle is pulled, court cost is paid, lawyer fees are paid, & those not familiar with what happens behind the "bar", they "all" pay dearly & get a one in a life time education.

Moral of the story may be:

One group runs for office to "make" laws; and,

another group runs for office or gets appointed to "judge" laws; and,

the remaining group visit the Casino often.

[mshmodela]

Yeah same thing on my mind, now the lower seat attachment points to the frame seems somewhat simple but I have a tudor and to see some photos of a 3 point belts for both the front and back seats... thanks you.

[H. L. Chauvin]

I have a 1930 Briggs Town Sedan with all wood sub-rails.

The sheet metal pan under the rear seat & the sheet metal rear floor board behind the front seat are secured to the wood frame with carpet tacks & would offer almost no resistance at all for the uplift of any attached seat belt bolts with or without large washers above or below.

For rear seat belts, provided one 2"x2" steel angle on top of rear wood sill extending to both side wood sills, & one 2"x2" steel angle on bottom of the rear sill also extending to both side wood sills, & through bolted both angles to both rear bumper arm to rear body cross sill "T" brackets, & also through bolted both angles through the centered heavy thick steel rear body panel & rear spare tire steel angle plate support.

Not at all easy -- lots of custom cutting, fitting, & drilling of both steel angles; however, there was nothing else available to secure rear seat belts.

For front seat belts, (not done yet), will try a 2x2 angle on top & bottom of wood cross member behind front seat, extending to out-sides of side wood cross members, with all through bolted to chassis.

Not really funny, but appears like the top might fly off with the windshield, gas tank, & (4) doors, but at least the wood frame through bolted & sandwiched between two (2) 2x2 steel angles should remain attached to the chassis along with the seat belts.

Wood sill & wood frame Model A's left "as is" were just never designed or manufactured for any rigging or attaching seat belts.

[mhsprecher]

Lots of good points made.

I would rather have something than nothing. As a teenager, I put seatbelts in my 56 Chevy. I later put those same seatbelts (Chrysler retractables) in my 54 Ford pickup. I didn't have an accident in either vehicle, thank goodness. In fact, I have never been in a serious accident as a driver or a passenger. I hope never to be in one on a Model A or any other car. I understand the limitations of what we are working with and I never really looked into how the seatbelts were installed in my TS until this post. I feel fairly good about the front seat belts. Not so sure about the back ones.

[Brother Hesekiel]

I don't want to drift too far away from this, but allow me to throw in my 2 cents. There are accidents where seat belts are beneficial, and there are accidents where they are not. The problem is, none of us knows what kind of accident we'll be involved in, if any, so installing seat belts in a car that wasn't designed for them is indeed a personal decision, so there's no right or wrong, only assessment from an individual perspective.

In an open car, just like on a motorcycle, I prefer not to have a seat belt. Case in point: on Memorial Day 2012 I lost all braking capability when my Model T Speedster's Ruckstell rear got stuck between high and low in nowhereland and by the time I realized it, I was just a few car lengths away from the cars waiting at the red stop light. All I wanted to do is not to hit another car or person, to get out of the way, so I pulled to the left, ready to run a red light. However, by the time I got there, the opposite traffic moved into the intersection, so that door closed as well. I then turned to the left again, trying to jump the curb and hopefully emerge unharmed on the other side, finding time to slow down . . . somehow. Yet when hitting the curb, the car jumped to the left, right into a tree. My wife was thrown out to the right, breaking her foot and a toe; I was thrown out to the left, breaking my left knee. Had I been strapped in, the steering column would have been gone through my chest, killing me, while my head would have gone straight into the monocle windshield. That's where my personal preference for no seat belt in an open car or motorcycle comes from. Your personal experience may differ, so more power to you, and be the force with you if you're wrong.

[Roadster62]

Please don't think a closed Model A is somehow safer than an open one. This is how a 1931 Slant Window Fordor looks with the tin removed. Bob

[H. L. Chauvin]

I drove for 11 years with absolutely no automobile insurance. It was not mandatory back then.

My biggest caution back then was thinking if my vehicle got totaled, I would have to walk, hitchhike, or ride everywhere on my bicycle.

When a light turned green, I would look both ways prior to taking off.

I think I am a little more cautious & always in less of a hurry when driving my Model A, with or without passengers, knowing that all the hours I put into it could be a waste of time in just a few careless seconds.

Good to hear about discussing & reading about Model A turn signals, brake lights, seat belts, & improving overall Model A safety in today's traffic ......... appears it can always be helpful.