The Ford Barn

union865 · 02-27-2014, 06:07 PM

I'm having a tough time trying to get my '28 started, and have looked at many things. I do have 6 volts going to the positive side of the coil when not cranking the motor over. I get 4.11 volts on both sides of the coil where the wires connect to it, while I'm cranking it over. I just bought the coil, but the one that was in there was new also, albeit 7 years old. When I check to see if any spark is coming out of the coil, using either coil, I use the coil wire going to the distributor and set it close to the motor and then crank the motor over. No spark, even with the garage lights out. So, I ran another wire directly from the ground side of the battery to the positive side of the coil and then crank the motor over. Still no spark. I also took a spark plug wire off my Harley and tried that, and still no spark. This doesn't make any sense to me unless the 2nd brand new coil is bad also. Does anyone know how to check a coil to see if it's bad? I do have a volt meter, but am a novice with it. Any other ideas why I can't get any voltage out of the coil???

Bob C · 02-27-2014, 06:28 PM

Have you cleaned and gaped the points, make sure the rotor is turning when the engine is cranking.

Bob

Dave Mc · 02-27-2014, 06:33 PM

disconnect or replace the condenser , then try it for spark

union865 · 02-27-2014, 07:22 PM

OK, can you tell me how gapping the points will get a pulse to come out of the coil? I don't need to do anything with the points if there is no pulse getting to them, right? Or, did i miss something? And I do thank you for the info.

Also, will changing the condenser make a pulse come out of the coil???

Sounds to me that I can't check the pulse coming out of the coil unless it's connected to the distributor. Is this what the both of you are inferring?

union865 · 02-27-2014, 07:27 PM

If I can't check the pulse coming out of the coil unless it's connected to the distributor, then your fixes could get spark to my plugs. I'll wait for your answers. Again, thank you both for giving me an answer.

Bob C · 02-27-2014, 08:04 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

The opening of the points is what fires the coil.
This article will explain how the system works http://www.gasenginemagazine.com/Gas...n-Systems.aspx

Bob

jmeckel · 02-27-2014, 08:55 PM

The point side of the coil should pulse from supply to ground with each lobe on the cam, if it never changes you have a problem in the point / condenser area of the distributor or the switch / wire. Another way to check the coil is to place a piece of paper between the points and then short them together with a screwdriver. You should get a spark out of the coil. No need to crank engine to test the coil.

Idaho Brett · 02-27-2014, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by union865

Does anyone know how to check a coil to see if it's bad?

To answer this question you'll need an OHM meter or a Multi-meter that can measure Ohms which is the "Greek Omega symbol" or the "Horse Shoe" looking symbol.

To test the "primary side"....put one test lead on the Positive Labeled Side of the coil and the other test lead on the Negative Labeled Side of the coil. You should see 1.4 to 1.8 (around 1.6) Ohms.

To test the "secondary side"....put one test lead on either the Positive Labeled Side OR the Negative Labeled Side of the coil (makes no difference which one you choose). Then put the other test lead where the Coil to Distributor wire comes out. You should see 8,000 to 12,000 (around 10,000) ohms. you might see 10.0 ohms depending on how your meter scale is set up.

BUT it's been my experience that although coils can go bad, MOST of them just don't. Especially if you've tried 2 coils and have the same result with both. Odds are the points and/or condenser are suspect. If the points are not opening and closing correctly, the coil doesn't have a chance to build up the required voltage to allow the coil to work properly and "throw a spark". Or if the condenser is bad it could be absorbing all the voltage meant to be going to the coil. Again not allowing the coil to work properly.

Also if the wire from the ignition switch to the Distributor base is grounding out some how, it can make the coil look like it's the problem. I'd check-out that possibility too.

Keep searching.......you'll eventually find the problem.

SDJason · 02-27-2014, 10:14 PM

If it were me, I'd be checking for a short somewhere in the distributer; with the ignition switch ON and the points open (slip a piece of paper between them), do you have 6V on the point arm?

Mike V. Florida · 02-27-2014, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by union865

I'm having a tough time trying to get my '28 started, and have looked at many things. I do have 6 volts going to the positive side of the coil when not cranking the motor over. I get 4.11 volts on both sides of the coil where the wires connect to it, while I'm cranking it over. I just bought the coil, but the one that was in there was new also, albeit 7 years old. When I check to see if any spark is coming out of the coil, using either coil, I use the coil wire going to the distributor and set it close to the motor and then crank the motor over. No spark, even with the garage lights out. So, I ran another wire directly from the ground side of the battery to the positive side of the coil and then crank the motor over. Still no spark. I also took a spark plug wire off my Harley and tried that, and still no spark. This doesn't make any sense to me unless the 2nd brand new coil is bad also. Does anyone know how to check a coil to see if it's bad? I do have a volt meter, but am a novice with it. Any other ideas why I can't get any voltage out of the coil???

Take a piece of paper and place it between the points to keep them open. Using a voltmeter as you have, there should be the same 6 volts from the battery terminal that connects to the frame on either side of the 6 volt coil with the switch on.

If this is good, connect the meter to a head bolt and check the voltage at the coil again. You are checking the engine to chassis ground.

If you have a different voltage from battery to coil and head to coil you have a ground problem with the engine and frame.

If you have a different voltage on the coil terminals you have a bad coil.

Remove the paper and close the points you should have voltage on one side of the coil only.

Let us know how this goes.

Forgot to ad that when the points are closed and you have 6 volts only on one side or the coil, if you open the points you should have a spark from the center of the coil wire to a head bolt when the wire is within 1/4 inch of the bolt.

700rpm · 02-28-2014, 01:05 AM

Check your point gap. Got one? Good. Rotate the engine till the points are for certain closed. Is your primary lead firmly inserted into the coil? Yes? Good. Are you absolutely sure your ignition switch is good? Yes? OK. Now, turn the key on. Remove the distributor body. Take the tip of the loose end of your primary lead in one hand, and reach over with the other hand and break the points open with your fingernail. That will tell you right away if the coil (or primary circuit) is working.

Willie Krash · 02-28-2014, 01:45 AM

All good advice.
Turn on key. hook test light to engine. Hook other side of light to battery side of coil, it should light up (Key verified),
Go to the Dist side of coil with light. Turn engine over, key on.
If the light does NOT go on and off, on and off....you will have no spark.
A 30 second test. If the light stays on or just off, you have enough info here to track it down. A test light is an important tool.

Mike V. Florida · 02-28-2014, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie Krash

All good advice.
Turn on key. hook test light to engine. Hook other side of light to battery side of coil, it should light up (Key verified),
Go to the Dist side of coil with light. Turn engine over, key on.
If the light does NOT go on and off, on and off....you will have no spark.
A 30 second test. If the light stays on or just off, you have enough info here to track it down. A test light is an important tool.

A lot of people use lights for testing. I don't like them, if the voltage is low say from poor grounds, the light may light but there is not enough voltage to work well been there done that and have seen it with other peoples car problems. It might be just me, but I like a meter so I know what voltage I have and not just a voltage. Like I said a lot of people have had a lot of success with test lights.

union865 · 02-28-2014, 03:59 AM

Thanks to everyone that gave me some advice. I'll get a set of points and condenser today and try it. IT's 2:30AM so it'll be a few hours before the store owners get up for the day. Again, thank you to everyone that gave me an opinion.

Tom Wesenberg · 02-28-2014, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by union865

I'm having a tough time trying to get my '28 started, and have looked at many things. I do have 6 volts going to the positive side of the coil when not cranking the motor over. I get 4.11 volts on both sides of the coil where the wires connect to it, while I'm cranking it over. I just bought the coil, but the one that was in there was new also, albeit 7 years old. When I check to see if any spark is coming out of the coil, using either coil, I use the coil wire going to the distributor and set it close to the motor and then crank the motor over. No spark, even with the garage lights out. So, I ran another wire directly from the ground side of the battery to the positive side of the coil and then crank the motor over. Still no spark. I also took a spark plug wire off my Harley and tried that, and still no spark. This doesn't make any sense to me unless the 2nd brand new coil is bad also. Does anyone know how to check a coil to see if it's bad? I do have a volt meter, but am a novice with it. Any other ideas why I can't get any voltage out of the coil???

4.11 volts is pretty low.
Do you have a weak battery?
Measure the battery voltage while cranking and not cranking.
Check the points for .020" gap on the highest point of the cam, and make sure it rotates while cranking.
Do you have a repro switch that might have one terminal toucing the gas tank?
Is the armored cable screwed too far into the distributor, thus grounding the circuit?

By running a wire from the battery ground to the points side of the coil you are grounding out the points and will never get a spark.

Stop the engine with the points open and the key ON, then measure the voltage at the movable points contact. It should be battery voltage.
When the points close it should be ground, or 0 volts.

To check for spark I like to stop the engine with the points open and the key on, then short the points with a screw driver while holding the coil wire 1/4" from ground.

rons49 · 02-28-2014, 10:50 AM

Is it possible that the "pig tail " wire broke? So replacing the condenser will not help. The pigtail is viewed by removing the "movable" upper plate in the distributor. Twenty years ago the same thing happened to me. I replaced the wire with a "wireless pigtail" and never a problem since. It's easy to check before replacing stuff.

Marco Tahtaras · 02-28-2014, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by union865

Thanks to everyone that gave me some advice. I'll get a set of points and condenser today and try it. IT's 2:30AM so it'll be a few hours before the store owners get up for the day. Again, thank you to everyone that gave me an opinion.

Don't go changing points and condenser until you find out what the problem is. It hasn't been properly tested yet. Changing them MAY get it to run better just because you fiddled with the distributor and not due to the new parts. then the problem could reoccur leaving you stranded.

Ignition points don't just fail. About the only thing that will prevent the points from functioning is the rubbing block wearing down so far that the surrounding frame arcs to the cam.

Now I may have missed it but I didn't see where you checked if you get an arc at the points. This is the FIRST check I ever do when suspecting an ignition issue. If the points are open then bridge across them with the tip of a screw driver while the switch is on. You should see and hear a spark. If the points are closed then use the screw driver to open them or maybe something insulated or wooden to be sure you aren't grounding the tip of the points. The same spark should occur whether bridging open points or opening closed points.

Assuming you do get a spark then as mentioned previously, properly adjust you point gap.

union865 · 02-28-2014, 06:48 PM

OK, here's what I found out. I did not have any spark with the points. I checked the wire under the points plate and that wire was contacting the distributor body and the points plate. I checked voltage at this wire and had nothing with the switch turned on. I replaced the wire ends with new terminals that would not make any contact with ether the distributor body now the points plate, and then checked the wire voltage and it had 5.78 volts. I checked the spark with the points open and the ignition turned on and I did hear a click and saw a faint spark. I put everything back together and tried to start it, and I finally had one pop, and then nothing. I do not know if the distributor cam is set correctly, so I'm waiting for the battery to recharge and then will reset that. I thought I'd check spark at the plugs and now I have nothing. I'm waiting for tomorrow to check the voltage at the wire under the points plate again and see if I have an intermittent problem there. I thought that might be a problem when I was checking it yesterday too. I tried to reset timing and cannot find the indentation that the timing plug goes into. I turned the fan blade so much looking for it that my hand hurt. I guess that's a 2 man job. Anyway, if I have an intermittent voltage in the wire under the points plate, what might cause that? Does the spark at the points need to be bright??? Thanks again.

Tom Wesenberg · 02-28-2014, 08:00 PM

Actually the spark at the points should be very small. If it's much of a spark you might have a bad condenser.
It's hard on the fan to turn it by hand, at least on the original steel fan.
Intermittent voltage at the points could be poor ignition switch contacts. I had that problem with a repro switch, but was able to remove the rear plate and make the contacts better.

I would remove all 4 plugs then see when #1 starts having compression as you hand crank it. Once #1 piston is about an inch from the top go real slow while holding the timing pin in, and you should be able to find it.

SDJason · 02-28-2014, 08:00 PM

A few things:

- I wouldn't stress the fan blades by trying to turn over the engine with them - not unless you want a blade to go flying off sometime when the engine's running (and hopefully not when somebody is nearby to catch it with their skull). If you can't crank by hand, then use the starter to get the rotor near to TDC (near the front passenger side of the car), then finish the job by leaving the car in 2nd or 3rd gear, and rock the car back & forth with the front right wheel, while feeling the timing pin for when it hits the indent. Once there, take the car out of gear and put the parking brake on.

If the ignition switch checks out, you may have a problem in the distributer somewhere - I went through a very similar thing almost exactly a year ago. You need to follow the entire electrical path inside there and pinpoint where things are failing (armored cable plunger > lower tab > pigtail > upper plate > points arm > points block):

the armored cable to the lower tab: is the armored cable screwed in too far & shorting out, or not screwed in far enough & not making good contact?

- is the lower tab bent a bit and shorting out? to prevent that, some folks cover it with tape everywhere except for where the condenser & armored cable plunger make contact

- is the points block screwed down tight (that was one of the problems I had - if it's loose, it can lead to an intermittent connection)

- do you have excess oil on the points or points block? that can interfere with the electrical path

By checking for spark, I mean hold the coil wire near a head bolt when manually opening the points - you should get a nice 1/2" or more blue spark from it to the headbolt.

02-27-2014, 06:28 PM	#2
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,751	Re: 1928 no spark out of coil Have you cleaned and gaped the points, make sure the rotor is turning when the engine is cranking. Bob

02-27-2014, 06:33 PM	#3
Dave Mc Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Indian Hills,Nevada Posts: 358	Re: 1928 no spark out of coil disconnect or replace the condenser , then try it for spark __________________ Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the Government take care of him, better take a closer look at the American Indian!" - Henry Ford

02-27-2014, 07:22 PM	#4
union865 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10	Re: 1928 no spark out of coil OK, can you tell me how gapping the points will get a pulse to come out of the coil? I don't need to do anything with the points if there is no pulse getting to them, right? Or, did i miss something? And I do thank you for the info. Also, will changing the condenser make a pulse come out of the coil??? Sounds to me that I can't check the pulse coming out of the coil unless it's connected to the distributor. Is this what the both of you are inferring?

02-27-2014, 07:27 PM	#5
union865 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10	Re: 1928 no spark out of coil If I can't check the pulse coming out of the coil unless it's connected to the distributor, then your fixes could get spark to my plugs. I'll wait for your answers. Again, thank you both for giving me an answer.

02-27-2014, 08:04 PM	#6
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,751	Re: 1928 no spark out of coil Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) The opening of the points is what fires the coil. This article will explain how the system works http://www.gasenginemagazine.com/Gas...n-Systems.aspx Bob

02-27-2014, 06:07 PM	#1
union865 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10	1928 no spark out of coil I'm having a tough time trying to get my '28 started, and have looked at many things. I do have 6 volts going to the positive side of the coil when not cranking the motor over. I get 4.11 volts on both sides of the coil where the wires connect to it, while I'm cranking it over. I just bought the coil, but the one that was in there was new also, albeit 7 years old. When I check to see if any spark is coming out of the coil, using either coil, I use the coil wire going to the distributor and set it close to the motor and then crank the motor over. No spark, even with the garage lights out. So, I ran another wire directly from the ground side of the battery to the positive side of the coil and then crank the motor over. Still no spark. I also took a spark plug wire off my Harley and tried that, and still no spark. This doesn't make any sense to me unless the 2nd brand new coil is bad also. Does anyone know how to check a coil to see if it's bad? I do have a volt meter, but am a novice with it. Any other ideas why I can't get any voltage out of the coil???

02-27-2014, 08:55 PM	#7
jmeckel Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Luck WI Posts: 550	Re: 1928 no spark out of coil The point side of the coil should pulse from supply to ground with each lobe on the cam, if it never changes you have a problem in the point / condenser area of the distributor or the switch / wire. Another way to check the coil is to place a piece of paper between the points and then short them together with a screwdriver. You should get a spark out of the coil. No need to crank engine to test the coil. __________________ Jon "If you choose to not decide, you still have made a choice!" RUSH Don't tell me what you know..... Tell me what you have done.

02-27-2014, 10:14 PM	#9
SDJason Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 442	Re: 1928 no spark out of coil If it were me, I'd be checking for a short somewhere in the distributer; with the ignition switch ON and the points open (slip a piece of paper between them), do you have 6V on the point arm?

02-28-2014, 01:05 AM	#11
700rpm Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 5,906	Re: 1928 no spark out of coil Check your point gap. Got one? Good. Rotate the engine till the points are for certain closed. Is your primary lead firmly inserted into the coil? Yes? Good. Are you absolutely sure your ignition switch is good? Yes? OK. Now, turn the key on. Remove the distributor body. Take the tip of the loose end of your primary lead in one hand, and reach over with the other hand and break the points open with your fingernail. That will tell you right away if the coil (or primary circuit) is working. __________________ Ray Horton, Portland, OR As you go through life, keep your eye on the donut, not the hole.

02-28-2014, 01:45 AM	#12
Willie Krash Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Phoenix, Oregon Posts: 661	Re: 1928 no spark out of coil All good advice. Turn on key. hook test light to engine. Hook other side of light to battery side of coil, it should light up (Key verified), Go to the Dist side of coil with light. Turn engine over, key on. If the light does NOT go on and off, on and off....you will have no spark. A 30 second test. If the light stays on or just off, you have enough info here to track it down. A test light is an important tool. __________________ Mike Stitt "A business that make nothing but money is a poor business." -Henry Ford

02-28-2014, 03:59 AM	#14
union865 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10	Re: 1928 no spark out of coil Thanks to everyone that gave me some advice. I'll get a set of points and condenser today and try it. IT's 2:30AM so it'll be a few hours before the store owners get up for the day. Again, thank you to everyone that gave me an opinion.

02-28-2014, 10:50 AM	#16
rons49 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: tucson Posts: 136	Re: 1928 no spark out of coil Is it possible that the "pig tail " wire broke? So replacing the condenser will not help. The pigtail is viewed by removing the "movable" upper plate in the distributor. Twenty years ago the same thing happened to me. I replaced the wire with a "wireless pigtail" and never a problem since. It's easy to check before replacing stuff.

02-28-2014, 06:48 PM	#18
union865 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10	Re: 1928 no spark out of coil OK, here's what I found out. I did not have any spark with the points. I checked the wire under the points plate and that wire was contacting the distributor body and the points plate. I checked voltage at this wire and had nothing with the switch turned on. I replaced the wire ends with new terminals that would not make any contact with ether the distributor body now the points plate, and then checked the wire voltage and it had 5.78 volts. I checked the spark with the points open and the ignition turned on and I did hear a click and saw a faint spark. I put everything back together and tried to start it, and I finally had one pop, and then nothing. I do not know if the distributor cam is set correctly, so I'm waiting for the battery to recharge and then will reset that. I thought I'd check spark at the plugs and now I have nothing. I'm waiting for tomorrow to check the voltage at the wire under the points plate again and see if I have an intermittent problem there. I thought that might be a problem when I was checking it yesterday too. I tried to reset timing and cannot find the indentation that the timing plug goes into. I turned the fan blade so much looking for it that my hand hurt. I guess that's a 2 man job. Anyway, if I have an intermittent voltage in the wire under the points plate, what might cause that? Does the spark at the points need to be bright??? Thanks again.

02-28-2014, 08:00 PM	#19
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: 1928 no spark out of coil Actually the spark at the points should be very small. If it's much of a spark you might have a bad condenser. It's hard on the fan to turn it by hand, at least on the original steel fan. Intermittent voltage at the points could be poor ignition switch contacts. I had that problem with a repro switch, but was able to remove the rear plate and make the contacts better. I would remove all 4 plugs then see when #1 starts having compression as you hand crank it. Once #1 piston is about an inch from the top go real slow while holding the timing pin in, and you should be able to find it.

02-28-2014, 08:00 PM	#20
SDJason Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 442	Re: 1928 no spark out of coil A few things: - I wouldn't stress the fan blades by trying to turn over the engine with them - not unless you want a blade to go flying off sometime when the engine's running (and hopefully not when somebody is nearby to catch it with their skull). If you can't crank by hand, then use the starter to get the rotor near to TDC (near the front passenger side of the car), then finish the job by leaving the car in 2nd or 3rd gear, and rock the car back & forth with the front right wheel, while feeling the timing pin for when it hits the indent. Once there, take the car out of gear and put the parking brake on. If the ignition switch checks out, you may have a problem in the distributer somewhere - I went through a very similar thing almost exactly a year ago. You need to follow the entire electrical path inside there and pinpoint where things are failing (armored cable plunger > lower tab > pigtail > upper plate > points arm > points block): the armored cable to the lower tab: is the armored cable screwed in too far & shorting out, or not screwed in far enough & not making good contact? - is the lower tab bent a bit and shorting out? to prevent that, some folks cover it with tape everywhere except for where the condenser & armored cable plunger make contact - is the points block screwed down tight (that was one of the problems I had - if it's loose, it can lead to an intermittent connection) - do you have excess oil on the points or points block? that can interfere with the electrical path By checking for spark, I mean hold the coil wire near a head bolt when manually opening the points - you should get a nice 1/2" or more blue spark from it to the headbolt.