The Ford Barn

oldsman41 · 05-06-2014, 01:17 PM

hey guys need help here. 51 merc 3 spd w od wont shift to od. I can here the click of the solenoid but it wont go into overdrive any help would be greatly appreciated.

40cpe · 05-06-2014, 01:26 PM

Does the transmission free-wheel when the OD handle is pushed in?

Are you sure the solenoid is clicking, or is it the relay on the firewall?

oldsman41 · 05-06-2014, 01:53 PM

yes it is the solenoid clicking I took it off the trans and tried it and the pin did engage so I think that part is good. it is hooked up straight to the solenoid not through relays that the way I bought the car and it worked fine until now.

rotorwrench · 05-06-2014, 04:09 PM

The solenoid has internal switches that allow multiple function depending on the governor switch, rail switch, and kickdown switch positions. All of the functions can be tested if you have a knowledge of how the system works and a good wiring diagram. If you have a later type transmission, it may not have a rail switch since they were deleted after a few years into the Mercury line. The governor switch can give trouble too and not allow it to kick in when the rpm is up to speed.

The dash relay is an on/off function that relates to initial high current flow for the on function of the solenoid and allows the governor switch to only have a small amount of current down to it if I remember correctly. The ignition coil is also in the circuit to allow the ignition to be mommentarily cut durring kick down or it won't function like it should.

40cpe · 05-06-2014, 04:33 PM

Does the transmission free-wheel when the OD handle is pushed in? If it doesn't free wheel it is not going to go into overdrive.

scooder · 05-06-2014, 05:02 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40cpe

Does the transmission free-wheel when the OD handle is pushed in? If it doesn't free wheel it is not going to go into overdrive.

This would be below the governor cut in speed, when the governor is up to speed (approx 25-30 mph) and the solenoid pin is all the way out of the solenoid or all the way in the transmission (powered up) dash handle in, the transmission should not freewheel, if working correctly.
Martin.

oldsman41 · 05-06-2014, 05:02 PM

40cpe didn't think about trying to see if it coasts I will do that tomorrow if it is nice out. like I said it worked when I put it away for winter.

scooder · 05-06-2014, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldsman41

yes it is the solenoid clicking I took it off the trans and tried it and the pin did engage so I think that part is good. it is hooked up straight to the solenoid not through relays that the way I bought the car and it worked fine until now.

Just to make it clearer, you said "it is hooked up straight to the solenoid not through relays that the way I bought the car and it worked fine until now"
What is hooked up straight to the solenoid? Do you know how is the overdrive wired?
Martin.

40cpe · 05-06-2014, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldsman41

40cpe didn't think about trying to see if it coasts I will do that tomorrow if it is nice out. like I said it worked when I put it away for winter.

If it was working before you put it up, it will most likely freewheel now. I'm leaning toward the solenoid not engaging or something in the pawl area being stuck. The solenoid pushes the pawl into the locking ring which engages the pinion and sun gear.

Is the car still 6v? The battery needs to be strong to work the solenoid to push the pawl. Just because the solenoid works out of the trans doesn't mean it is working when in place.

40cpe · 05-06-2014, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooder

This would be below the governor cut in speed, when the governor is up to speed (approx 25-30 mph) and the solenoid pin is all the way out of the solenoid or all the way in the transmission (powered up) dash handle in, the transmission should not freewheel, if working correctly.
Martin.

He said it isn't working. It should freewheel at any speed with the handle in.

rotorwrench · 05-06-2014, 06:41 PM

You have to completely lock it out with the T-handle to prevent the function of the freewheeling clutch.

These systems can be hot wired with just a solenoid switch but there is a list of "don't do" things when it is. I prefer the full automatic function with all the proper parts wired in. I also like to have the safety features that prevent internal destruction of the transmission.

joe 1950 · 05-06-2014, 07:59 PM

be careful here I agree just because it works outside the trans doesn't tell the whole story its pulling power may be weak it takes a lot of pull when doing its job

Mike51Merc · 05-07-2014, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40cpe

Is the car still 6v? The battery needs to be strong to work the solenoid to push the pawl. Just because the solenoid works out of the trans doesn't mean it is working when in place.

I agree. Anything less than 6 volts seems to cause solenoid engagement problems.

I chased an OD problem for a couple of years. At night my OD wouldn't engage. Turned out (after quite a bit of troubleshooting) to be a combination of my headlights drawing down power and my wiring for the solenoid power was gauged too thin.

oldsman41 · 05-07-2014, 10:19 AM

its 12volt but I will run through the checks you have discussed. this might take a while

scooder · 05-07-2014, 11:42 AM

Working properly, handle out = no overdrive and no freewheel.
Handle in = overdrive above cut in speed (approx 28mph) and freewheel below cut in speed, NO freewheel above cut in speed.
It is a very popular misconception that these freewheel at all speeds in overdrive with the handle in.
If they do freewheel above cut in speed, something is wrong, or its been wired or switched differently than it should. Why you would not have it working without all its bits and bobs is beyond me. But some do.
Martin.

oldsman41 · 05-07-2014, 04:25 PM

well here is the deal it doesn't freewheel with the handle in,so give me the bad news thanks guys

Mike51Merc · 05-07-2014, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldsman41

well here is the deal it doesn't freewheel with the handle in,so give me the bad news thanks guys

Check that the lever is actually moving the lever on the transmission.

oldsman41 · 05-07-2014, 07:34 PM

mike yeah did that already. thanks

Drbrown · 05-07-2014, 10:50 PM

Attached is a wiring diagram for your 51 OD. It shows a "kick-down" switch on the accelerator pedal but many installations did not include them. Ford and many others copied the Borg-Warner OD designs. I have a Borg-Warner OD Trouble-Shooting and Repair Manual in *.pdf format but this site won't load it. Send me your email address by PM and I'll send you several manuals i.e rebuilding and operating OD's. Dan

scooder · 05-08-2014, 02:00 AM

Could you tell us how yours is wired please, and if it has all its proper bits. Earlier you said that it didn't have relays, and is wired directly to the solenoid. What is wired directly to the solenoid? This info will help us understand what's up with your overdrive.
Thanks,
Martin.

Cecil/WV · 05-08-2014, 06:09 AM

My guess is that the planetary gear is locked up if it worked and now doesn't free wheel.. Not what anyone wants to hear. Anxious to hear the final verdict.

TheMerc · 05-08-2014, 11:11 AM

The way I had to wire mine (as governor was bad) was to put in a toggle going to the solenoid that would ground the circuit.
I was driving mine the other day (now I have put a LOT of miles on this trans) and it dropped out of overdrive suddenly. No more freewheel, I can still hear my solenoid click, but it will not engage.
I checked my cable(push lever) and it is still moving the way it should, I'm wondering if, more hoping, that kickdown wire may have gotten melted and grounded, essentially making it not drop into overdrive? Has anyone experienced this before?
If not, does anyone have a 49-50 Mercury 3sp w/ od for sale?

Mike51Merc · 05-08-2014, 11:39 AM

If you remove the solenoid, you can insert something with a hooked end (wire hanger or equivalent) into the part that the solenoid inserts into. See if you can move the pawl in and out manually.

How's the tranny oil level? These transmissions are known for being pretty durable. I just hope you didn't cook it.

rotorwrench · 05-08-2014, 12:21 PM

If the overdrive shift rail & fork is in the overdrive engaged position the output shaft should freewheel. If it doesn't then there is a problem with either the shift rail & fork is not shifting the sun gear properly or the planetary cage is locked up for some reason (frozen planetary gear/s or loose pieces in the way). The freewheeling rollers or cage can give out if severly worn too.

I've known people that had some scary things happen with these units if something gets out of place inside. When the transmission locks up while motoring down the road at 70 MPH it will get a person's attention pretty quick. These units have to be maintained in top condition for piece of mind.

oldsman41 · 05-08-2014, 07:02 PM

guys it is wired through a toggle switch. checked everything yesterday and today the unit still will not free wheel with the cable pushed in. I will try and see if the pawl will move with the hanger in the morning. thing is when I parked it for winter it worked and no noises or leaks either both boxes are still right up on oil. thanks for the sugestions will keep trying.

scooder · 05-09-2014, 03:26 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Guys, if you put " Borg Warner overdrive" into Google, you'll find down loadable pdf workshop manuals. Weather it be a Ford one or Studebaker or whatever, all good. The overdrive unit is the same and they have good trouble shooting stuff in them. They are honestly not that complicated, has testing stuff too, "if this does this, then move to this" type stuff. Have a plug through them and see what you find. If you need further clarification just shout. You can print the manual off and lay under your car with it in your hand, would be a quicker way of pinning down the problem.
Martin.

oldsman41 · 05-10-2014, 04:24 PM

pulled the tranny today then took the housing apart and it was pretty glued together. I don't get it the box was still full of oil but it will need a rebuild now have to find a good rebuilder. thanks everyone. anyone have a rebuilder you used or a good trans hoghead style give me a shout.

green50 · 05-10-2014, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldsman41

pulled the tranny today then took the housing apart and it was pretty glued together. I don't get it the box was still full of oil but it will need a rebuild now have to find a good rebuilder. thanks everyone. anyone have a rebuilder you used or a good trans hoghead style give me a shout.

Check your PM box.

rotorwrench · 05-11-2014, 11:38 AM

I still see the B/W R10 planetary shafts for the old Mercury and Ford cars now and then on flea-pay but they are getting harder to find now days. A guy might have to find another transmission for repair parts if something needs replacement. You really have to know what gearboxes to look for to get the correct parts. If yours in a later 51 Merc trans with the smaller input and four bolt pattern then at least it is interchangeable with the same years of Ford car transmissions. Some of the parts carried well into the 50s for those.

05-06-2014, 01:17 PM	#1
oldsman41 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 157	51 merc od hey guys need help here. 51 merc 3 spd w od wont shift to od. I can here the click of the solenoid but it wont go into overdrive any help would be greatly appreciated.

05-06-2014, 01:26 PM	#2
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: 51 merc od Does the transmission free-wheel when the OD handle is pushed in? Are you sure the solenoid is clicking, or is it the relay on the firewall?

05-06-2014, 01:53 PM	#3
oldsman41 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 157	Re: 51 merc od yes it is the solenoid clicking I took it off the trans and tried it and the pin did engage so I think that part is good. it is hooked up straight to the solenoid not through relays that the way I bought the car and it worked fine until now.

05-06-2014, 04:09 PM	#4
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: 51 merc od The solenoid has internal switches that allow multiple function depending on the governor switch, rail switch, and kickdown switch positions. All of the functions can be tested if you have a knowledge of how the system works and a good wiring diagram. If you have a later type transmission, it may not have a rail switch since they were deleted after a few years into the Mercury line. The governor switch can give trouble too and not allow it to kick in when the rpm is up to speed. The dash relay is an on/off function that relates to initial high current flow for the on function of the solenoid and allows the governor switch to only have a small amount of current down to it if I remember correctly. The ignition coil is also in the circuit to allow the ignition to be mommentarily cut durring kick down or it won't function like it should. Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-06-2014 at 04:19 PM.

05-06-2014, 04:33 PM	#5
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: 51 merc od Does the transmission free-wheel when the OD handle is pushed in? If it doesn't free wheel it is not going to go into overdrive.

05-06-2014, 05:02 PM	#7
oldsman41 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 157	Re: 51 merc od 40cpe didn't think about trying to see if it coasts I will do that tomorrow if it is nice out. like I said it worked when I put it away for winter.

05-06-2014, 06:41 PM	#11
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: 51 merc od You have to completely lock it out with the T-handle to prevent the function of the freewheeling clutch. These systems can be hot wired with just a solenoid switch but there is a list of "don't do" things when it is. I prefer the full automatic function with all the proper parts wired in. I also like to have the safety features that prevent internal destruction of the transmission.

05-06-2014, 07:59 PM	#12
joe 1950 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Green Bay Wi Posts: 400	Re: 51 merc od be careful here I agree just because it works outside the trans doesn't tell the whole story its pulling power may be weak it takes a lot of pull when doing its job

05-07-2014, 10:19 AM	#14
oldsman41 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 157	Re: 51 merc od its 12volt but I will run through the checks you have discussed. this might take a while

05-07-2014, 11:42 AM	#15
scooder Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,593	Re: 51 merc od Working properly, handle out = no overdrive and no freewheel. Handle in = overdrive above cut in speed (approx 28mph) and freewheel below cut in speed, NO freewheel above cut in speed. It is a very popular misconception that these freewheel at all speeds in overdrive with the handle in. If they do freewheel above cut in speed, something is wrong, or its been wired or switched differently than it should. Why you would not have it working without all its bits and bobs is beyond me. But some do. Martin.

05-07-2014, 04:25 PM	#16
oldsman41 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 157	Re: 51 merc od well here is the deal it doesn't freewheel with the handle in,so give me the bad news thanks guys

05-07-2014, 07:34 PM	#18
oldsman41 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 157	Re: 51 merc od mike yeah did that already. thanks

05-08-2014, 02:00 AM	#20
scooder Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,593	Re: 51 merc od Could you tell us how yours is wired please, and if it has all its proper bits. Earlier you said that it didn't have relays, and is wired directly to the solenoid. What is wired directly to the solenoid? This info will help us understand what's up with your overdrive. Thanks, Martin.

05-08-2014, 06:09 AM	#21
Cecil/WV Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gerrardstown, WV Posts: 2,266	Re: 51 merc od My guess is that the planetary gear is locked up if it worked and now doesn't free wheel.. Not what anyone wants to hear. Anxious to hear the final verdict.

05-08-2014, 11:11 AM	#22
TheMerc Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Waterloo, IA Posts: 3	Re: 51 merc od The way I had to wire mine (as governor was bad) was to put in a toggle going to the solenoid that would ground the circuit. I was driving mine the other day (now I have put a LOT of miles on this trans) and it dropped out of overdrive suddenly. No more freewheel, I can still hear my solenoid click, but it will not engage. I checked my cable(push lever) and it is still moving the way it should, I'm wondering if, more hoping, that kickdown wire may have gotten melted and grounded, essentially making it not drop into overdrive? Has anyone experienced this before? If not, does anyone have a 49-50 Mercury 3sp w/ od for sale?

05-08-2014, 11:39 AM	#23
Mike51Merc Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Northeast Pennsylvania Posts: 1,582	Re: 51 merc od If you remove the solenoid, you can insert something with a hooked end (wire hanger or equivalent) into the part that the solenoid inserts into. See if you can move the pawl in and out manually. How's the tranny oil level? These transmissions are known for being pretty durable. I just hope you didn't cook it.

05-08-2014, 12:21 PM	#24
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: 51 merc od If the overdrive shift rail & fork is in the overdrive engaged position the output shaft should freewheel. If it doesn't then there is a problem with either the shift rail & fork is not shifting the sun gear properly or the planetary cage is locked up for some reason (frozen planetary gear/s or loose pieces in the way). The freewheeling rollers or cage can give out if severly worn too. I've known people that had some scary things happen with these units if something gets out of place inside. When the transmission locks up while motoring down the road at 70 MPH it will get a person's attention pretty quick. These units have to be maintained in top condition for piece of mind.

05-08-2014, 07:02 PM	#25
oldsman41 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 157	Re: 51 merc od guys it is wired through a toggle switch. checked everything yesterday and today the unit still will not free wheel with the cable pushed in. I will try and see if the pawl will move with the hanger in the morning. thing is when I parked it for winter it worked and no noises or leaks either both boxes are still right up on oil. thanks for the sugestions will keep trying.

05-09-2014, 03:26 AM	#26
scooder Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,593	Re: 51 merc od Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Guys, if you put " Borg Warner overdrive" into Google, you'll find down loadable pdf workshop manuals. Weather it be a Ford one or Studebaker or whatever, all good. The overdrive unit is the same and they have good trouble shooting stuff in them. They are honestly not that complicated, has testing stuff too, "if this does this, then move to this" type stuff. Have a plug through them and see what you find. If you need further clarification just shout. You can print the manual off and lay under your car with it in your hand, would be a quicker way of pinning down the problem. Martin.

05-10-2014, 04:24 PM	#27
oldsman41 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 157	Re: 51 merc od pulled the tranny today then took the housing apart and it was pretty glued together. I don't get it the box was still full of oil but it will need a rebuild now have to find a good rebuilder. thanks everyone. anyone have a rebuilder you used or a good trans hoghead style give me a shout.

05-11-2014, 11:38 AM	#29
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: 51 merc od I still see the B/W R10 planetary shafts for the old Mercury and Ford cars now and then on flea-pay but they are getting harder to find now days. A guy might have to find another transmission for repair parts if something needs replacement. You really have to know what gearboxes to look for to get the correct parts. If yours in a later 51 Merc trans with the smaller input and four bolt pattern then at least it is interchangeable with the same years of Ford car transmissions. Some of the parts carried well into the 50s for those.