The Ford Barn

CatMan1 · 08-30-2021, 07:13 AM

I have the 'Death Wobble' at low speeds around town. Never on the highway. While jacking up my car to work on the oil leak (fixed) I noticed that the right front (and also left) wheel is loose. I checked by putting my hands at 12 & 6. Yep, loose. I also checked by putting my hands at 9 & 3. Yep, loose. So, apparently I have BOTH bad wheel bearings and king pins? Is there another reason? Is there some adjustment that the last guy didn't do? How could both be bad? I'm going to tear it apart tonight.

chrs1961815 · 08-30-2021, 07:21 AM

Make sure that your lugnuts are tight first. The wheel being loose really goes back to your hubs and studs. Some studs have the shoulder in the wrong spot. The other thing is that you can have n early hub with a later wheel or a later hub with an early wheel.

1931 flamingo · 08-30-2021, 07:24 AM

9 & 3 may be just adjusting the wheel bearings. Are the wheels tight to the drum?? How old are the tires?? Tire pressure?? Condition of the radius rod ball?? Looseness of the tie rod ends?? Play in the strg box itself?? Loose pitman arm??

Start at the strg box and work your way out to the spindles. You might get away with just doing the king pins.

Paul in CT

CatMan1 · 08-30-2021, 07:34 AM

....And to add to this the steering is really, really hard to turn when stopped. (I know, there's no power steering.) There is literally NO play in the wheel! We think he did this to compensate for the wobble. I'm thinking he didn't do anything to the front end. It's supposedly been roughly 1,000 miles since the restoration.

nkaminar · 08-30-2021, 07:40 AM

Could be just loose bearings. You can look at the king pins while checking at 12:00 and 6:00 and see if they are moving. You can also see if the tie rods are loose by looking at them while at 9:00 and 3:00. It may be time for new front wheel bearings.

Easy steering has to do with the steering geometry as much as the steering box. If the geometry is not right the steering will be hard. The caster, camber, and king pin angle all have to be correct. Of course it helps to have a rebuilt steering box, and to have the proper lubrication in the box. Plus, the tires should be at 35 psi.

Patrick L. · 08-30-2021, 08:35 AM

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Yep, good info above.

Looseness can be anything from the steering box adjustment down thru anything to the wheel bearings and anything in between.

Just because the wheel bearing adjustment may be a bit loose doesn't mean they are bad. Remove the wheel and take a look, probably just need to be repacked and put back together. Adjust them correctly [ snug but no tension, back off till the next castle]

Check everything, steering box adjustment, mounting bolts, drag link, tie-rod adjustment, king pin bushings, perch bolts, rear arm mount under bell housing, etc. Check everything to make sure they are snug.

rotorwrench · 08-30-2021, 09:43 AM

Uncontrolled wobble in steering components is an exaggerated feedback or resonance. This type of control vibration generally has both a control condition cause and an induced vibration cause.

Any looseness in linkage or hinge components such as gearbox play, tie rod or drag link play, and king pin play can make it worse. Even loosness in the suspension components can play a part. The dynamic vibration cause is generally in the tire or wheel assembly when it reaches an rpm where it starts to resonate. The resonance is the cause and the play in the parts exaggerates the situation.

In the helicopter world it is called ground resonance. The rotor imbalance is the cause and the play is in the control and landing gear components exaggerates the level of movement in the vibration. This condition can destroy a helicopter pretty quickly if the pilot doesn't know how to handle the situation.

I would take a good look at the tires and wheels. A bent rim or a tire with a carcass to tread separation could be the cause. If I suspect a tire to have a tread separation, I take it off the car and roll it on the shop floor. If it won't roll straight then the tire is bad.

CatMan1 · 08-30-2021, 09:48 AM

Other than Taking the wheels off and taking a peek, is there a procedure to follow? As mentioned, should I start up at the steering wheels and just make sure everything is in spec and put it back if not?

Tacoma Bob · 08-30-2021, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatMan1

Other than Taking the wheels off and taking a peek, is there a procedure to follow? As mentioned, should I start up at the steering wheels and just make sure everything is in spec and put it back if not?

As stated start at he steering box and move forward. It can be one little thing or one big thing or a combination of little and big things. One thing I did not see mentioned was the steering arm balls and pitman arm ball. I believe Tom Endy mentioned that often times it's best to remove the entire front end and do a proper rebuild on the bench.

Patrick L. · 08-30-2021, 11:30 AM

Just jack it up and put stands under the axle. Have someone work the steering wheel and look for any looseness. Then fix it. The 2 tooth steering box has 4 adjustments which need to done in order, then repeat it just to make sure. Procedure is in the Service Bulletins.Tie-rods can be snugged up, then the toe-in needs to be set [ 1/32-1/16" in ]. The pitman arm is famous for getting loose on the sector shaft.
Once you're out to the king pins, and the wheel bearings are tightened as they should be, wiggle the wheels at 12:00 and 6:00 and look for the looseness. I don't think loose king pins are prune to cause the 'wobble' but if they are too loose then maybe they should be changed. The top of wheel when pulled/pushed shouldn't move more than a 1/4".

CatMan1 · 08-30-2021, 11:52 AM

I failed to mention that I have a '28 Sport Coupe. I would figure that the steering adjusts differently through the years?

Patrick L. · 08-30-2021, 03:18 PM

Yep, the early ones have a 7 tooth box. So the 2 tooth box info doesn't apply unless it has been changed over the years.

Gene F · 08-30-2021, 04:41 PM

Do the easy stuff first. repack the wheel bearings. Make them just snug. I mean just snug. Remember they are going to expand. I like to use the ford grade grease. It is stiffer. Go to NAPA they will know what you mean. Tight lug nuts. Tighten the pitman arm. I know you think it is tight, bet it is not as tight as you think it is... Replace the spring and cups on the bellhousing where the front wishbone attaches. I bet the problem is fixed.

08-30-2021, 07:13 AM	#1
CatMan1 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Location: Pella, IA Posts: 337	Loose Front End! I have the 'Death Wobble' at low speeds around town. Never on the highway. While jacking up my car to work on the oil leak (fixed) I noticed that the right front (and also left) wheel is loose. I checked by putting my hands at 12 & 6. Yep, loose. I also checked by putting my hands at 9 & 3. Yep, loose. So, apparently I have BOTH bad wheel bearings and king pins? Is there another reason? Is there some adjustment that the last guy didn't do? How could both be bad? I'm going to tear it apart tonight.

08-30-2021, 07:21 AM	#2
chrs1961815 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Spring Grove, Illinois Posts: 1,371	Re: Loose Front End! Make sure that your lugnuts are tight first. The wheel being loose really goes back to your hubs and studs. Some studs have the shoulder in the wrong spot. The other thing is that you can have n early hub with a later wheel or a later hub with an early wheel. __________________ "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

08-30-2021, 07:24 AM	#3
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: Loose Front End! 9 & 3 may be just adjusting the wheel bearings. Are the wheels tight to the drum?? How old are the tires?? Tire pressure?? Condition of the radius rod ball?? Looseness of the tie rod ends?? Play in the strg box itself?? Loose pitman arm?? Start at the strg box and work your way out to the spindles. You might get away with just doing the king pins. Paul in CT

08-30-2021, 07:34 AM	#4
CatMan1 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Location: Pella, IA Posts: 337	Re: Loose Front End! ....And to add to this the steering is really, really hard to turn when stopped. (I know, there's no power steering.) There is literally NO play in the wheel! We think he did this to compensate for the wobble. I'm thinking he didn't do anything to the front end. It's supposedly been roughly 1,000 miles since the restoration.

08-30-2021, 07:40 AM	#5
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Loose Front End! Could be just loose bearings. You can look at the king pins while checking at 12:00 and 6:00 and see if they are moving. You can also see if the tie rods are loose by looking at them while at 9:00 and 3:00. It may be time for new front wheel bearings. Easy steering has to do with the steering geometry as much as the steering box. If the geometry is not right the steering will be hard. The caster, camber, and king pin angle all have to be correct. Of course it helps to have a rebuilt steering box, and to have the proper lubrication in the box. Plus, the tires should be at 35 psi. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

08-30-2021, 08:35 AM	#6
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Loose Front End! Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Yep, good info above. Looseness can be anything from the steering box adjustment down thru anything to the wheel bearings and anything in between. Just because the wheel bearing adjustment may be a bit loose doesn't mean they are bad. Remove the wheel and take a look, probably just need to be repacked and put back together. Adjust them correctly [ snug but no tension, back off till the next castle] Check everything, steering box adjustment, mounting bolts, drag link, tie-rod adjustment, king pin bushings, perch bolts, rear arm mount under bell housing, etc. Check everything to make sure they are snug.

08-30-2021, 09:43 AM	#7
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: Loose Front End! Uncontrolled wobble in steering components is an exaggerated feedback or resonance. This type of control vibration generally has both a control condition cause and an induced vibration cause. Any looseness in linkage or hinge components such as gearbox play, tie rod or drag link play, and king pin play can make it worse. Even loosness in the suspension components can play a part. The dynamic vibration cause is generally in the tire or wheel assembly when it reaches an rpm where it starts to resonate. The resonance is the cause and the play in the parts exaggerates the situation. In the helicopter world it is called ground resonance. The rotor imbalance is the cause and the play is in the control and landing gear components exaggerates the level of movement in the vibration. This condition can destroy a helicopter pretty quickly if the pilot doesn't know how to handle the situation. I would take a good look at the tires and wheels. A bent rim or a tire with a carcass to tread separation could be the cause. If I suspect a tire to have a tread separation, I take it off the car and roll it on the shop floor. If it won't roll straight then the tire is bad.

08-30-2021, 09:48 AM	#8
CatMan1 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Location: Pella, IA Posts: 337	Re: Loose Front End! Other than Taking the wheels off and taking a peek, is there a procedure to follow? As mentioned, should I start up at the steering wheels and just make sure everything is in spec and put it back if not?

08-30-2021, 11:30 AM	#10
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Loose Front End! Just jack it up and put stands under the axle. Have someone work the steering wheel and look for any looseness. Then fix it. The 2 tooth steering box has 4 adjustments which need to done in order, then repeat it just to make sure. Procedure is in the Service Bulletins.Tie-rods can be snugged up, then the toe-in needs to be set [ 1/32-1/16" in ]. The pitman arm is famous for getting loose on the sector shaft. Once you're out to the king pins, and the wheel bearings are tightened as they should be, wiggle the wheels at 12:00 and 6:00 and look for the looseness. I don't think loose king pins are prune to cause the 'wobble' but if they are too loose then maybe they should be changed. The top of wheel when pulled/pushed shouldn't move more than a 1/4".

08-30-2021, 11:52 AM	#11
CatMan1 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Location: Pella, IA Posts: 337	Re: Loose Front End! I failed to mention that I have a '28 Sport Coupe. I would figure that the steering adjusts differently through the years?

08-30-2021, 03:18 PM	#12
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Loose Front End! Yep, the early ones have a 7 tooth box. So the 2 tooth box info doesn't apply unless it has been changed over the years.

08-30-2021, 04:41 PM	#13
Gene F Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,971	Re: Loose Front End! Do the easy stuff first. repack the wheel bearings. Make them just snug. I mean just snug. Remember they are going to expand. I like to use the ford grade grease. It is stiffer. Go to NAPA they will know what you mean. Tight lug nuts. Tighten the pitman arm. I know you think it is tight, bet it is not as tight as you think it is... Replace the spring and cups on the bellhousing where the front wishbone attaches. I bet the problem is fixed.