Straightening up a couple of Model A's (Advice needed)

[Jyromefedx]

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Hello and good day all.
This is my first post to these forums so please be gentle.

Before the snow fell I made a purchase of my dream car, in this case cars.
A Model A Sedan, I however did not quite realize what I was biting off with the fact that the Sedan versions have most of the main structure fastened with wood, and in my case, the remnant ghost of wood. I am looking to bring my car back to life as I have been amassing parts for it but I need to start with the structure.

I am a mechanic by trade but know very little on body work, especially structural. So I have come to the experts.

A few questions:

Is there any resources that would show me in detail the internal dimensions of the sedan when sitting properly?

Has anyone resources for a documented account of restoring the structure of a Sedan?

Is this indeed a 1930 Murray Sedan?

Thank you kindly.

[ronn]

just a suggestion-sell them both off at a slight profit and start a little higher up the chain.


so much work here. better suited for a rodder.

[nkaminar]

Hi Jyrome,

Welcome to the Barn and to the Model A hobby. What Ron was trying to say is that it takes a lot of time and money to restore one of these cars. The people who restore them do so because they love the work and are proud of the results. But it is a lot faster and cheaper to just buy one that has most of the work done.

If you like doing the work then proceed. The usual vendors sell wood kits. I use Snyder's (https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/). Also look there for books on restoring these cars. There is a judging guide that has a lot of information but I don't know how to obtain it. Perhaps another Barn member can jump in.

[old31]

Jyro, welcome to the forum.

Being a mechanic is great that will help.

But, if you cant do body work, paint, wood, and upholstery you might be in for a bad day.

If you have real deep pockets, a lot of time on your hands, are looking for a challenge then go ahead with the project. Otherwise do as Ronn has suggested.

[Canton_Model_A's]

I also agree with Ronn. Those 2 would take a ton of work and a lot of time. Sell both for a profit, and start a little higher on the food chain.

And welcome to the Barn. No question is too dumb to ask, we are here to help.

Dave

[mngrant]

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Myron,

Yes, welcome. My suggestion would be view MAFCA.com. There is publications available and join a chapter. Model A people, a great community.

[Y-Blockhead]

Jyrome, there is a lot of wood in the fordors, a lot of time and money to replace it. As others sugessted, maybe think about starting with a better candidate for restoring.

This picture doesn't even show the wood for the four doors.

Yes, the one in the front appears to be a 1930 Murray fordor. I can't see enough of the other to tell for sure.

[oldspert]

Maybe the Les Andrews book Volumn II would be a help. Covers some of the wood installation on two doors but might help with the four door too.

[Ordsgt]

I am completing my 1930 Tudor. It is on the road and driven often. I am, like you, mechanically inclined. The new top wood for my Tudor was about $900 and needed final fitting. The upholstery kit now goes for $4000 and a 1 year back log. You can find running A's for around $8000. I am not trying to discourage you but both those cars are monumental projects.

[1930artdeco]

Yep, I have to agree with the others. If both cars have curved window tops then they are Murry's. If one has square windows then it is a Briggs and nothing will interchange after the A pillar. But you are in for one hell of a project if you keep them-I am in the same boat with my other car.

Mike

[redmodelt]

Unless you have the paper work/title that you can put in your name and do so, I would not suggest dropping any money/time it them above what you already paid.
See it often enough, people drop a butt load of cash into restoring a car, then when they can't get title to it, sell with bill of sale.
Sure, there are ways, but in my OP, that should be done before starting, not after.

[Bob C]

I added up the wood for one of the Fordors from Snyder's and it came out to $8800 without shipping.

[Chuck Dempsey]

Welcome to the 'Barn. Good Luck!

[rotorwrench]

The 155C Town Sedan was an elegant model for 1930 through mid 1931 but they did have a lot of wood structure. A person with a well stocked wood shop and a fair amount of ash wood in inventory would take a while to fabricate all the pieces even if they had the patterns. Ford Wood and other suppliers have what I refer to as oversize patterns so that a fit can be better guaranteed but it required some careful fitting (removal of the slight excess) to get all the structure to fit the sheet metal back over it. You can take wood off a piece but it's not so easy to add it back.

A friend of mine from my early days growing up in Kansas, helped his Dad build up an old family owned since new Model A Fordor Sedan. I donated some very nice headlights that had been in our barn to the project. His Dad had been a body man for a while after the war and he was also an excellent carpenter that built two of the family homes. He had to make the wood to fit the sheet metal and that was all they had to work with. By trial and error, they managed to get everything back together and fitting as good as it was when it left the Murray body plant. This was it the time when we had no internet nor cell phones. It was hard to get everything back in the 60s & 70s but they got it done in the space of about 2-years. They were farming by this time and had the winters to give them more time to work. The car is beautiful and quite an accomplishment. They later restored several other body types after they got the bug.

Anyone with good skill sets and a lot of time can do it but it will be quite a challenge. I learned body work and upholstery work with publications and repetition. I was an aircraft mechanic by trade for 40+ years so that helped. I've tried a lot of things that most people have never though of doing and have been relatively successful. I figure if I can do it then anybody can.

Finding one of the model A body designs that have less wood is sometimes a better choice for the beginner. Not being able to drive the thing will sometimes make a person lose interest and there is will set.

[w.michael]

The Fordors are very desirable and very elegant cars; but one in poor condition is a major project to undertake. If you restore one, you will have a great car and an accomplishment to be proud of. If you have the patience and the temperament and the work space, go for it! I think the complete wood system is available from Classic Wood in Greensboro, NC. It’s not cheap. But unless you are a master woodworker, that’s the only way to go. Good luck!

W. Michael

[Model "A" Fords]

Hello Jyrome.

Nice to welcome another Model "A" man!

I would agree the front car is a 1930 Standard Fordoor Murray. There aren't signs of any holes for cowl lights that could indicate a Town Sedan. If the dash panel is the clover leaf shape it would be 1930 through June. July onwards would have the wide oval shape dash.

There aren't very many Standard Sedans around as fewer were made and over time many were modified into Town Sedans. They have a lot of wood as Y- Blockhead shows. Even without the doors, there is actually more wood that isn't shown but you get the idea.

Depending whether you want a driver or fine points car, the cost to restore differs considerably. For my 1930 Standard Sedan I chose to restore it as a driver while learning what I needed for fine points. This way I could enjoy and drive it before the next step.

At first everyone suggested just buying a restored car as they are always less expensive than restoring. It was good advice, except this was the first car I ever bought. This meant alot to me and I've had it since 1967 at the age of 13. It was also a local Canadian car.

After years of enjoyment, it was in a severe collision on a one way street with a car going the wrong way. I didn't want the expense to put it back as just a driver so went for a points car a little earlier than expected. It is still in restoration mode.

Had this specific car not meant so much to me, buying a driver would have been my choice. Definitely, way less expensive than restoring a car to driver statice! Having a driver while meeting like minded Model "A" people has benefits. In a short time you're surrounded with knowledgeable Model "A" people that would love to support you in any project.

If you can afford a roadworthy car and keep the two Sedans, I would. As you learn more about them you might enjoy restoring while not feeling rushed to get a car on the road.

It would be great if you could post more photos of the two cars. These really peek my interest! Thank you for sharing.

Have fun whatever your decision!

[updraught]

I'd start by going to see the new film "The Boys in the Boat"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3XoBhL_xv8

You've certainly got that "Grapes of Wrath" look going on there in spades.

https://www.typelish.com/b/a-look-at...f-wrath-104410

[oldspert]

My second Model A was a 1929 Town Sedan. Murray body. Was in pretty good shape when I bought it. Was a college student and did not have enough time to finish it but it was still very restorable. This was in 1965.

[ModelA29]

Sit back and take stock on what you'll need to hire out. Yes you're a mechanic but you'll still need machine work on the engine for babbitt or insert bearings. That plus the other parts and a trans/rear end build. Brakes, tires, etc.

Like was mentioned $4,000 for interior. A guy at our last A meeting just paid $12,000 for body and paint (wood was OK). Materials are a fortune today for a good paint job.

Once you add it all up you'll see buying one already done will save you money. If you've got room keep one to tinker with.

MAFCA and MARC both sell the same Judging Standards book.

[gdmn852]

Hello, granted you will have more in it than it’s probably worth, but that can be said for many hobbies. I am restoring a 31 roadster, and know I have more in it than it is worth, along with my 49 Buick and also a 71 MGB . But to me it’s not about cash value ,rather it’s about history. Also when you are done, you will have the pride of knowing the car inside and out. If you have the time to restore it , being able to save it from the scrap yard.

[Jyromefedx]

Hello and happy Friday all.

I'll try my darndest so respond to everybody. A little back ground to where I live and my plans for my cars will catch about half of you fine folks.
I really appreciate all of your personal stories.

So I'm a prairie boy in Saskatchewan Canada.
I have titles for both of mine and a good daily driver.

Selling and finding another really isn't a huge option around here, the market is small and has either cars in the same condition as mine but missing doors and main body components for slightly more than what I paid, or cars that are done up and have a tag of near 20,000.00 USD.

That isn't to say I don't have money to spend forwarding these cars to get back on the road, but I'm looking to do it in a way some might not find the most pure. I am looking to make this my daily driver down the line, all year long snow or shine. To accomplish that I am staying away from any hopes of this being a show car, back to Fords intended purpose of a durable everyday commuter.

My skills and parts hoarded:

I have a complete functioning drivetrain in storage (Engine to rear axle)
I have seating secured
I have a recored radiator

I plan to paint it, wire it and do the bodywork myself.

The biggest thing I am stuck on is mounting the body to the frame, not the act of it, but how to space the internal dimensions of the completely wooden B pillar spaces the door to the frame. 'Y-Blockhead's reply has helped how everything goes together to the floor of the frame with wood from factory.

This may be the part I lose a few of you. I plan on doing the floor in metal so it can last another 100 years. Does anyone know of a kit that sells a full floor kit for Murray Fordor's?

Or is there any resources out there that have the interior dimensions fully blueprinted so I could fabricate my own flooring?


If I missed anyone's question or it looks like I didn't get into detail please let me know.

More pictures to come when the three feet of snow melts.

[Model "A" Fords]

Jyrome,

Are these Canadian cars?

[rotorwrench]

Fabricating a metal subframe may be a challenge since the wood subframes were bolted to the frame with no need for body blocks like a Tudor or Coupe types. There were also steel braces that held body wood to subframe wood. It will be a lot of work either way. I've never seen anyone restore a car with a steel subframe to replace the wood but a lot of hot rodders do it.

[Gene F]

Jyromefedx don't let us all scare you off. Just know that this is not a quick thing. I restored my car, and if I had the mind to I could certainly drive it daily.

I have a 1928 Tudor, and I replaced the wood from the beltline up, and those pieces that go vertical at the rear of the door jambs. Get a kit from Snyders. Lay it out sorta and you will figure it out. I coated my wood with linseed oil using an old t-shirt. That is what Ford did. I coated it 3 times. Is there a local Model-A club near you? If so join, and the other guys in your club likely will be happy to stop over from time to time, and coach you. It's like a giant lego kit. Avoid cutting wood. I bought a good wood kit, and I never cut one piece. I did file a piece or two though, but no major changes.

The body of a Model-A just sits on the frame, and 6 or 8 bolts simply hold the coach onto the frame. Don't tighten those bolts down till you get closer to final assembly, so you can move things around a bit to align things. Yes the doors on a 4-door do have wood frames, and they will require some extra work. I never pulled my coach fully off the frame. There is a piece of fabric material between the coach and frame, and all the supply houses sell that material by the roll.

As far as a metal floor goes, you are thinking overkill. Plywood will last ages. If you are concerned use marine grade plywood. The rear flooring in my car was the crates Ford salved and used for flooring in 1928.

You can do it if you put your mind to it. Many a Model-A has been put back together with worse to start with. A lot of people quit part way through. That is the real risk in your case. I am guessing you are fairly handy, and can think things through, and/or ask questions.

The rule of thumb is that for an experienced restorer a Model-A can be restored in 1,000 hours. I can't do it in that few of hours, but maybe someone can. I would figure about 2,000 hours for your car. As far as wiring goes, the harness is a part you can buy for not a lot of money, and put on your car in about an hour. The model A only has a handfull of circuits.

Jyromefedx don't start on it unless you talk to some guys and look at it and figure out your game plan. If you start and simply disassemble it then quit then it will be junk. Get yourself a cup of coffee, a parts catalog, a clipboard, and think on it a bit. You can do it IF YOU WANT TO, I know you can.

PS; If you want it to be a streetrod this is not the car for you. I have hotrods (and a streetrod), and speak from experience.

[Gene F]

FYI, screws on the model A wood framing are often "reed & prince" head screws, not phillips heads. Like furniture screws.

[Ayers1]

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Originally Posted by gdmn852

Hello, granted you will have more in it than it’s probably worth, but that can be said for many hobbies. I am restoring a 31 roadster, and know I have more in it than it is worth, along with my 49 Buick and also a 71 MGB . But to me it’s not about cash value ,rather it’s about history. Also when you are done, you will have the pride of knowing the car inside and out. If you have the time to restore it , being able to save it from the scrap yard.

I have to admit I agree with this advice. If you don't know how to do body work then start with what you do know. Mechanical. Buy both of Les Andrew's books, the red and the green one. You will learn most of what you need to know on the mechanics from them. If you know anyone that can do bodywork see if they would be willing to help out and show you how to get started. That should take you a long ways towards your goal!
Welcome to the Forum and the Model A hobby!

[Jyromefedx]

Hello and once again, thank you for the replies.
Again, I'll try to respond to everyone.



-Ayers1

Thank you for the welcome, for my plan I have the mechanics down tickety-boo. There is one fella I've been talking to about metal fab and he's talking about $100/h, so the more I can do the better. I have a welder and I have welded, structural bodywork is new new new to me.

-Model "A" Fords
"Jyrome,

Are these Canadian cars?"

They have CA Serial Numbers


-Gene F
"If you want it to be a streetrod this is not the car for you. I have hotrods (and a streetrod), and speak from experience."

This really lead me to something, I can finally put a word to what I am looking to do, a street rod. For my first one I am not looking to restore it to factory, more just get together a drivable, reliable vehicle. Now that I have a name and baring in mind the scarcity of other options in my area, why would this be a bad candidate for a street rod?

The electrical I am plenty fine with alongside the mechanical portion, specifically a straight body to frame mounting is where my head is at.

-rotorwrench

"Fabricating a metal subframe may be a challenge since the wood subframes were bolted to the frame with no need for body blocks like a Tudor or Coupe types. There were also steel braces that held body wood to subframe wood. It will be a lot of work either way. I've never seen anyone restore a car with a steel subframe to replace the wood but a lot of hot rodders do it."

In my mind I am looking to more so make a full encased metal body as my end result. The steel braces that I seen in the prior picture have helped me understand how it went together from factory. Do you have any resources on a hotrodder doing it in a Fordor?

[Gene F]

The frame and suspension are not really compatible for a lot of torque, and that kind of weight. That is the short answer.

I have an A, a streetrod, and other collector cars. Some cars accept radical updates better than others. You can make some modifications to the A and still be ok. Stuff like changing to a 4-speed, or maybe a Model-B engine. Things like that.

Something to run around in, erands, back and forth to work...yes your A will be perfect for that. Fun too. Always nice when you get out of your A in a parking lot, and someone yells over "hey nice car". The car need not be perfect.

[CarlG]

Just going by the title or the thread, I'd send them to their corners with a promise of a good whoopin' if they didn't straighten up! (:>)

[Model "A" Fords]

Jyrome,

CA designations were from the start of Canadian Model "A" production, February 1st, 1928, until August 31st, 1929. Following the CA series numbers, a three letter designation was used with numbers from 1 to 10,000 for each letter combination, starting with CAQ 1-10,000. The letter Q being the first number on the typewriter keyboard, continuing with W ,E, R, T and so on, skipping letter A. Letter D being the last produced in February 29th, 1932.

Engine replacements from earlier vehicles placed into later cars was common, as seems to be in your case. I can give you the production date of the engines if you give me the serial numbers. Your ownership will likely have the original engine number that would date the actual car.

Canadian cars used many Robertson square socket drive screws that you may want to pass on if you build a custom car. There are also many Canadian specific parts that may not be needed. If you advertise them for sale, mention they are Canadian parts.

Have fun with your projects!

[Roger V]

I have restored several Model A's and bought one very similar to yours years ago. Even with a complete woodshop and making some other Model A body wood pieces, I sold the Fordor. Even if I bought a complete wood kit (requiring a lot of rework), I knew I could do it but also realized my enthusiasm would dwindle so agree with the majority of the responses.

[rotorwrench]

I would look for a 1931 slant windshield model if I wanted a mostly steel Fordor body.

If you do away with the flexibility of the wood frame Fordor body, it will have to be built as you go for door fit and function plus cowl to engine fairings in order to get it to look and work right. With the wood body it still has to be built back up for good fit as well but as long as it is close, the body can be shimmed to the frame to tweak it for small irregularities. Building with steel can make for a pretty rigid structure with little give in it.

I've experienced doors that come open after hitting a bump in the road when the body and doors aren't well adjusted.

[Jyromefedx]

Hello and good day to you all.

I have been investigating around and have come back to rephrase my initial question as I think I can ask it better now.

I have found a site solely dedicated to Model A Trucks, and on that site they have tons of valuable detailed drawings of floor board dimensions like the one that follows.



Are there and sites or resources that will have these kind of blueprints for a Model A Sedan?

I've also been looking at steel floor pans offered through a few Model A part suppliers, I do not know if they would help accomplish my idea as I am unsure if they are supposed to mount the woodwork on the chassis
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/p...4496&cat=41637

Now for replies.

-rotorwrench

"I would look for a 1931 slant windshield model if I wanted a mostly steel Fordor body..."

The door fitting part is something that has my attention, I would not put off the idea of using wood to aid with door placement and additional latches for security.


-Roger V

"I have restored several Model A's and bought one very similar to yours years ago. Even with a complete woodshop and making some other Model A body wood pieces, I sold the Fordor..."

As my job has taken me away from home, friends and family, I have a ton of free time on evening and weekends to sink my teeth into something.
I can see me viably getting one driving within a two years time once I get my floor figured out.

-Model "A" Fords

"CA designations were from the start of Canadian Model "A" production, February 1st, 1928, until August 31st, 1929. Following the CA series numbers, a three letter designation was used with numbers from 1 to 10,000 for each letter combination, starting with CAQ 1-10,000. The letter Q being the first number on the typewriter keyboard, continuing with W ,E, R, T and so on, skipping letter A. Letter D being the last produced in February 29th, 1932..."

Once the snow melts I will have to try and find the serial numbers on Chassis, only one of my cars has an engine.



-Gene F

"The frame and suspension are not really compatible for a lot of torque, and that kind of weight. That is the short answer..."

The engine I have is more modern but is by no means a power house in its state. A 2.3l Inline 4 with a 4 speed transmission at about 89hp

[Jim M]

My Model A was a find in West Virginia. Had sat in a barn for over 40 years. The mice had chewed up the upholstery and top. I put new oil and gas in and it started right up. Had a new top made and have been driving it now for over 20 years. Enjoy the hobby...you have a wonderfull piece of history.

[Jyromefedx]

Hello folks.
The snow melted enough to got out and get more pictures.
I'm still not certain of the years and makes of both cars.

Update on the flooring is I did find a youtuber who is bracing the body in a way that fits what I am looking to do.

[langus480]

Hi Jerome, great project cars. As a fellow mechanic (aviation) and fellow car enthusiast, I would start out with deciding what YOU want to do. If you want to fully restore these two cars, great. FIRST, buy these books (you'll find them very informative, and you'll begin to think 'these were written especially for me'):


https://www.amazon.com/COMPLETE-MECH.../dp/B00XABG49W

Keep in mind that what ever you choose to do will take time, but take steps that make progress. Meaning, get the necessary things to get it running and driveable.


Driveable means you can take it out and enjoy it between upgrades and improvements.


Then, maybe work on replacing the wood (they sell kits for all the wood- I know, I just bought all the wood for my pickup). You'll be able to fix the roof at that point as well and knock out two of the items at once. Then, what ever else you want to do, but the key point to take away from this is, you learn as you work on these old cars, and what ever you choose to do, you'll basically resurrect them from the scrap pile or modifiers torche for hot rodding. BUT ITS ENTIRELY UP TO YOU TO CHOOSE. If you need help and assistance reach out here on the forum, there are a great amount of talented people on here willing to help.



Lastly there are so many resourses for parts, just do an internet search for what you may need or are missing. If you need any parts that you can't find then post a request or question again here on the forum, someone will reply.


One more thing, join the local Model A club in your area. They to will help you get under way on achieving your goals.



STAY THE COURSE and KEEP THEM FLYING (down the highway anyways)!!!

[MickyD]

I agree with gdmn852. I have restored several cars in my life time and although they cost me a lot, I had fun and enjoyed doing so. Either way that you go , having a Model A is a lot of fun and some headaches.Good luck with your venture.

[Gene F]

jyromefeed - good start. Many of us have started with less. Hang in there, and take your time.

[Randy in ca]

Originally Posted by Jyromefedx

Hello folks.
...........I'm still not certain of the years and makes of both cars........

-
I believe both are Fordors manufactured by Murray. The one in you first post is a 1930 (at least the fenders,running board aprons and hood are - body not sure, need to see the firewall). The black one in your last post is a 28-29 Murray.

From the engine/serial number *CA43246* I get August 1928 production.

You've got your work cutout for sure!! Best of luck with it all.

[rotorwrench]

The center mount E-brake is a late 1928 & early 29 thing too. To do the floor out of steel, a person would need to figure out the best way to tie the body parts into the floor. If your building it to look original then the body will have to mate up with not only the doors but the cowl, hood, and radiator cowl as well. You will have to get creative for sure. A person may be able to use tudor sedan sub-rails or something of that nature to get a good floor to cowl fit and then start piecing in the doors and body shell parts. Murray and Briggs both attached the body to wood sub-rails with various support braces to hold the B pillar and C pillar around the front and back doors. It will take a lot of thought and fitting to get it all to fit well together. This is one reason that there are fewer other models on the road due to the manufacturers using so much wood in that time frame. The Dodge Brothers were the only ones that used all steel at least until they died and Walter P took it over. Ford only used the subcontractors because the fordors were not fast selling cars at the time.

[Bob C]

The black one is a 1929 Town Sedan. Be very careful with the cowl
band they are very fragile and hard to find.

[Jyromefedx]

Thank you all for the replies, especially the pointing out of years. If there are places I can take pictures of for you guys to confirm years further please let me know.

My objective is pretty clear in my mind, a maintainable daily driver for the black 29' Sheet metal floor and roof, more modern drivetrain as I only have the one A block and I have multiple 2.3l Inline 4s sitting in a shed.

The blue one identified as a 28' will have a full actual restoration.

The black one will be the first one started as it'll never be a points car, just a daily driver.

I think I have come as close as I will get for the dimensions I have been looking for by finding this https://www.mafca.com/images/measure...rdor-sedan.jpg

Through some maths I may be able to make this work until such a time as a person with a fordor sedan can give me the exact b pillar width dimensions.