Synthetic Oil for Model A

[clo2jim]

I am currently cleaning out some sludge in the oil pan for my Town Sedan. I have been using Pennzoil 5W30 oil. Last oil change showed that I had sludge in the oil pan. I range from 23 to 230 miles per year on this car. I usually change oil once per year.



I am thinking of switching to Mobil I Synthetic Oil to get away from the sludge problems.


What are your thought on the use of Synthetic Oil in a Model A engine.


Thanks from snowy Northern Ontario Canada

[Kurt in NJ]

I have seen modern synthetic oil all its life engines sludge up too, short trips, bad thermostat,mixture problems, do you use a thermostat? , drive till oil is up to temperature to boil off condensation, get fuel mileage over 17?

[1931 flamingo]

Unless you drop the pan and open the valve galley up and remove the existing sludge it's stilll going to be there. Lot of work IMO opinion for only driving what you do. JMO
Paul in CT

[nkaminar]

100 years ago, the standard recommendation when changing oil was to fill the crankcase with kerosene and run the engine until all the sludge was dissolved. Then drain out the kerosene and fill the crankcase with fresh oil. One trick I used to do with my Model T was to jack up the front end or run the front of the car up a ramp to drain out the oil in the rod pans. I am sure not everyone will agree with the kerosene method. Otherwise, use a good grade of multi grade detergent oil and run the car non stop for 100 mile, drain out that oil and fill with fresh. For the 100 miles, if cold out, cover part of the radiator to really warm up the engine. Or put in a 160 degree thermostat.

[clo2jim]

No Thermostat


Never measured fuel mileage. Only put 1,900 mile on it since I got it in 2009.


I do know short trips does not help


Thank-you for all the comments so far.

[HDowse]

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The thermostat would help a lot. It did on my A and especially on the V8 that had a lot of sludge when I bought it 5 years ago. No oil filter but I’ve made it a practice to change the oil every 350-500 miles, done it 12 times now and there’s no sludge that I can feel through the very large oil drain hole. But that doesn’t answer your question....I use Rotella 15-40 in my cars and feel the synthetic might not make any difference. Frequent changes and a warm engine should help. Others will definitely have differing opinions.

[WHN]

I have been using 20w-50 HD for many, many years. Only drive 150 to 200 miles per year. Last time I dropped the oil pan, no sludge at all. Just a very light film of what might have become sludge later on.

When I do go for a drive, I try to make it over 10 miles. No thermostat.

Sometime I think we worry to much about these cars.

Enjoy.

[California Travieso]

Originally Posted by WHN

I have been using 20w-50 HD for many, many years. Only drive 150 to 200 miles per year. Last time I dropped the oil pan, no sludge at all. Just a very light film of what might have become sludge later on.

When I do go for a drive, I try to make it over 10 miles. No thermostat.

Sometime I think we worry to much about these cars.

Enjoy.

WHN,

I’m with you. Model A’s have probably taken a lot more abuse over the years than we’ll even know.

I would only worry if I had just paid $4K or $5K to have the engine rebuilt.

David Serrano

[Richard in Anaheim CA]

I can't argue with the advice you were given but most of you are doing your Model as a real disservice. You need to follow the motorcycle guys slogan from the 70's.
TAKE IT OUT AND PLAY WITH IT

Take it on the road and drive it 45 mph or so for an hour or more. Go visit someone. Go to breakfast, lunch, Then repeat Often. Use any modern multi grade oil you use in your modern car.

You aren't going to hurt your Model A by driving it.

Richard
Anaheim CA

[Mister Moose]

What am I missing here? Any modern ashless dispersant oil, ie detergent oil, will hold particles in suspension and sludge does not form. We are all changing our oil at very short intervals.

Is anyone running straight mineral oil other than for beak in?

[hardtimes]

15w40 Rotella, is what I use.
If your in cold country, a thermostat is recommended. If you do few miles and short trips , let the engine WARM UP.
Also, a 180 degree thermostat would be more applicable.

[ronn]

with synthetic oil basically the same price as regular oil at Walmart- I have been running only synthetic in EVERYTHING.

even the lawn tractor. it protects far better then reg oil which breaks down much faster.
to me there is nothing to think about.
you will never have any motor "lock up" using pure synthetic.

[JayJay]

This same subject - what type of oil to use - comes up repeatedly on every antique/classic car/motorcycle forum I've ever had the pleasure to grace. My $0.02 worth:

1. Any oil is better than no oil.
2. Clean oil is better than dirty oil.
3. If your oil is low, add a quart of whatever you have rather than wait until you have the "right" stuff. See #1.
4. Any oil these days, synthetic or dinosaur based, is better oil than what went into these cars when they were new.
5. Since we change the oil so often (see #2) it really doesn't make much difference what we use.
6. Pick whatever oil you like and can get locally and inexpensively (in my case it's Mobil 1 20-50), carry a couple quarts when you go on tour, check the level frequently and don't sweat it.

JayJay

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by ronn

you will never have any motor "lock up" using pure synthetic.

Hmmm, can't say I have had any engine "lock up" because I used a regular oil either...

[Chris Haynes]

Synthetic oil lubricates better. With this in mind if your car leaks a drop of oil every mile with synthetic it will leak five drops a mile.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Mister Moose

What am I missing here? Any modern ashless dispersant oil, ie detergent oil, will hold particles in suspension and sludge does not form. We are all changing our oil at very short intervals.

Is anyone running straight mineral oil other than for beak in?

Detergent oil can only do so much. Sludge results from moisture in the oil reacting with combustion byproducts that end up in the oil from blow-by past the rings and exhaust valve guides. Water (and whatever contaminants it has absorbed) does not mix with oil. It settles to the bottom of the pan when the engine is not running. The only way to get rid of this moisture is to get the oil hot enough to evaporate (boil off) the moisture. This moisture comes from condensation and also combustion. Water is a byproduct of burning gasoline, which is a hydrocarbon ("hydro" refers to hydrogen). We've all seen water dripping out a tailpipe on a cold day. Some of this water gets past the rings into the oil.
If a person starts and idles his Model A for 10-20 minutes every couple weeks or monthly in the winter, he is doing more damage than not starting it all winter. This includes corrosion in the exhaust system.

[shookie]

Ronn: Please check your oil prices again if you are still on this Planet .

[Kevin in NJ]

Oil basics.

What I have learn by listening to oil engineers specifically talking about the oil in antique cars. These are people who make a living dealing with the science behind the oil in your car. The advice is simple..


Oils need detergents and additives to keep the oil clean and free of bad chemicals. These wear out over a fairly long time.

Modern oils are really good and only lose their lubricating properties in high heat. Much higher then the A can give it.

Synthetic oils are for the engines which see much higher heat or more modern designs where they will work for a very long time. The A really does not need any of these improvements. You are just wasting your money.

Changing your oil too often is a waste of resources and money. A few years, a few thousand miles it will be fine. Keep in mind few will ever approach 50,000 to 80,000 miles which is the life of the engine. 99% of the engines will fail because they were not built right long before they wear out.

500 miles was the recommendation in 1930 because the oil molecules would break down and not lubricate. They know how to make oil not break down today. Except under extreme heat, then you use synthetics.

Here is the quick summary:

Use an oil with additives and detergent and do not change it too often.

Synthetic is overkill and a waste of money.

There may be some merit to using a compression ignition based oil because the additives are better tailored for the kind of bad chemicals found in the crankcase of the A engine. This means you do not have to change it as often.

[George D]

When I change the oil in the A I usually very slowly pour about a half quart oil in before replacing the drain plug. The fill pipe is in the front of the block the fresh oil slowly cascades through the dipper tray pushing the old oil along with it. Watch the oil drain when it starts to run clean replace the plug. There is little to no waste just a more complete oil change.

[MickyD]

That sounds like a good idea. I checked today and I have only put a total of 250 miles on my 28 since I bought it in 2014. It has set for various reasons. I took my carburetor to a top carburetor builder and it took him 6-8 months before I got it back. He would rather make a lot off a 4 barrel than deal with me. I just finally got it set to run real good..I am going to check my oil tomorrow. A friend is coming over and if weather permits we will take a ride.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by MickyD

That sounds like a good idea. I checked today and I have only put a total of 250 miles on my 28 since I bought it in 2014. It has set for various reasons. I took my carburetor to a top carburetor builder and it took him 6-8 months before I got it back. He would rather make a lot off a 4 barrel than deal with me. I just finally got it set to run real good..I am going to check my oil tomorrow. A friend is coming over and if weather permits we will take a ride.

Yikes, 250 miles in 7 years!!! I say these cars are for driving, not setting. I have done more than double that many miles in a day more than once.
Not meaning to chastise but I wonder whether you would get more out of your investment by using it.

[ronn]

Ronn: Please check your oil prices again if you are still on this Planet .


5 quarts for under 15.00???????????????

guess they have a different walmart out your way.

[ronn]

Supertech FULL synthetic for 14.63 for FIVE quarts............

granted the words triple titanium, super premium, jumbalala, quadruple gold standard

arent in the title. Me thinks walmart isnt really in the oil production business, so yes, you are getting top rate for pretty much the same as your dinosaur oil.

can lead a horse to water, but sure as heck cant make him drink. Was hoping I might save just "one" lost soul! LOL

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Yikes, 250 miles in 7 years!!! I say these cars are for driving, not setting. I have done more than double that many miles in a day more than once.
Not meaning to chastise but I wonder whether you would get more out of your investment by using it.

When I purchased my '30 pickup about a year ago the previous owner had completed a frame-off resto in 1981, and then driven it less than 1000 miles since then. That's right, 1000 miles in close to 40 years. Needless to say, it took a bit of work to get it road-worthy. I've put close to 600 miles since I got it running, would have been a lot more except for that pesky virus keeping us all cooped up.

JayJay

[clo2jim]

Follow-up:
Side panel was removed - no sludge found
Found about 1/4" or so of sludge in the oil pan which was cleaned up after the baffle was removed

Ordered a new oil pump screen

[GerryAllen]

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Guys, please get out and drive your cars. This Flu virus would be tough to catch if you were driving your A at 35 -40 mph. Please don't let the Pandemic rule your life, do what you can with little or no contact. I drove my A 60 miles the other day to pick up some oil. Put on my mask when going into the NAPA store then left.
Had a great drive, I average 5000 miles a year and have had little trouble with it,
Gerry Birch Bay WA

[The Master Cylinder]

Originally Posted by GerryAllen

Guys, please get out and drive your cars. This Flu virus would be tough to catch if you were driving your A at 35 -40 mph. Please don't let the Pandemic rule your life, do what you can with little or no contact. I drove my A 60 miles the other day to pick up some oil. Put on my mask when going into the NAPA store then left.

Flu virus??

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by The Master Cylinder

Flu virus??

COVID-19. Heard of it?

[Flyboy1st]

Best set up for a clean non sludge Model A engine is a 160 thermostat, Mobil One 5W30 full synthetic oil and a cam cover full flow oil filter. Change every 3000 miles or every six months, combustion causes acid so the time change of the oil. Also always let it get up to the 160 degree temp to evaporate moisture, don't let it sit and idle needlessly. In my area, Virginia, that oil and filter runs about $40, pretty cheap insurance for a restored 91 year old engine, love these old engines!

[Model A Ron]

I would think Shell Rotella 15w40 T6 would be the way to go with a full flow oil filter for some added insurance. Change it once per year or every 2000......again cheep insurance. I also agree that we cannot stop living because of the China Virus. Be safe keep your distance and enjoy you A's.

Ron

[KenBolton]

Rather than flushing the engine putting a quart of kerosine, fuel oil or diesel in when it is hot and circulating it for a few minutes may result in a better clean out.

[The Master Cylinder]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

COVID-19. Heard of it?

COVID-19 is not considered the flu. COVID-19 is caused by a new coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2, while the flu is caused by influenza A and B viruses. The coronavirus is more contagious and spreads more quickly than the flu, causes a loss of taste or smell and symptoms generally appear two to 14 days after exposure.[/QUOTE]

[40 Deluxe]

I was of the understanding that cold and flu viruses are also known as coronaviruses, and the current pandemic was the result of a new strain, therefore the novel (meaning "new") virus.

[SAJ]

KenBolton, I have an image in my head of a motor with sludge containing years of unfiltered metal particles from normal wear processes, plus cotton fibres released from a worn cam gear and maybe gritty bits where the dipstick missed the hole on first try by a half blind pump jockey years ago when garages checked your oil. Also bits of babbit and other particulates all locked into the unfiltered goop that set and sits in valve chamber and sump.
In my image, fuel oil might unlock this detritus and diesel or kerosene certainly would. And it would pass right through the oil pump and into the gravity-fed bearings, and be deposited in the tray where the conrod scoops deliver it into the big ends.
A clean engine wouldn't suffer this ( and wouldn't need flushing anyway) but an old, dirty, unfiltered one would not like it at all.
I may be wrong here, but I am a great fan of removing sump and valve cover, cleaning everything out properly, having first blocked the mains oil tubes with pipe cleaners if really dirty in the valve chamber. And then using full synthetic oil with a good amount of zinc and phosphorous (1200 parts per million or thereabouts), added at the refinery not by the car owner, because too much ZDDP is corrosive.
I use Mobil 1 15W-50 in temperate Auckland with full flow oil and air filters.
Before anyone comments that Model A's have steel camshafts, not cast iron, with light valve spring loads, the ZDDP is in my engines to protect pistons, bores and bearings more than the cams and tappets, which we know are lightly loaded in the standard Model A engine.
As I said, just my opinion, but based on a study of tribology during university years and manufacturing industrial oils and greases for many years after I qualified.
SAJ in NZ

[ronn]

Hmmm, can't say I have had any engine "lock up" because I used a regular oil either...


true story that Ive told many times........ buddy worked at the local bus garage. the drivers were brutal and sometimes would run a hole in the oil pan,
while driving over a manhole cover. Bus's would come back in totally dry and engines still running. Buddy would install a new oil pan- fill again with synthetic and on their way they would go.
try that with reg oil and now youve just bought a new engine.

[The Master Cylinder]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

I was of the understanding that cold and flu viruses are also known as coronaviruses, and the current pandemic was the result of a new strain, therefore the novel (meaning "new") virus.

Well, best of luck to you. I have had my flu shot and both of my "flu" shots...

[Flyboy1st]

Originally Posted by Model A Ron

I would think Shell Rotella 15w40 T6 would be the way to go with a full flow oil filter for some added insurance. Change it once per year or every 2000......again cheep insurance. I also agree that we cannot stop living because of the China Virus. Be safe keep your distance and enjoy you A's.

Ron

I like the synthetic more than the Rotella which at one time was really a top notch oil but the synthetic has advanced to the point that metal to metal friction is next to nothing. Based most of my experience on old Harleys(1936-1984)which used to manufacture sludge to the point of a comedy routine. Started to use Mobil One back in the 1990s and you could not find sludge buildup at all if changed the same as the old organic oil. Nothing will overcook oil better than on old air cooled Hog.

[Model A Ron]

Originally Posted by Flyboy1st

I like the synthetic more than the Rotella which at one time was really a top notch oil but the synthetic has advanced to the point that metal to metal friction is next to nothing. Based most of my experience on old Harleys(1936-1984)which used to manufacture sludge to the point of a comedy routine. Started to use Mobil One back in the 1990s and you could not find sludge buildup at all if changed the same as the old organic oil. Nothing will overcook oil better than on old air cooled Hog.

FYI Shell Rotella T6 is synthetic and I use it in all my older cars and 2003 VW diesel due to the ZDDP. As for my modern cars I have used Mobil 1 for over 20 years now and it is good oil but no ZDDP.

Ron

[SAJ]

Model A Ron, all of the Mobil 1oils I see listed contain both zinc and phosphorous in the form of ZDDP.
The lowest phosphorous is 650 ppm and the highest is way up at 1750. I use 15W50 which has 1200 ppm Phosphorous and 1300 zinc. The zinc numbers are about 100 ppm higher than the phosphorous numbers across the Mobil 1 range.
They also contain molybdenum-sulphur complexes that release moly disulphide (a simplification)) under boundary lubrication and also boron complexes, both of which are proprietary to Mobil and not listed.
To talk about "zinc" is a little confusing. ZDDP is zinc dialkyl dithio phospate. The phosphorous component is what forms replaceable wear protection domains when aluminium or steel surfaces experience severe pressure and heat from excess friction. They are phosphate glasses, separating the wearing surfaces and helping prevent seizure when things go awry, such as overheats, piston seizures from too little clearance, and the same for both Babbitt and silicon-aluminium bearing shells.
ZDDP is the common abbreviation for a family of similar compound nor just a single one- again each proprietary to the oil companys' oil additive suppliers like Lubrizol corporation.
In an old worn engine this protection may not be needed, but there are many cases where new engines have seized due to close tolerances, overheating, lugging, bad machining, bad piston alloys etc.
SAJ in NZ

[California Travieso]

Originally Posted by ronn

Ronn: Please check your oil prices again if you are still on this Planet .


5 quarts for under 15.00???????????????

guess they have a different walmart out your way.

Ronn,

I got two 5 quart jugs of Kirkland Synthetic Oil for $28 at Costco, so that’s less than $15 per jug not counting State taxes.

David Serrano

[ronn]

good deal David!


nothing to complain about at those prices.

[fried okra]

I've always had a positive experience with Kirkland brand things.

I'm sure their synthetic oil is good.....hard to say who refines it though.