Why So Few (Apparent) Sheet Metal Makers?

[ericr]

Ill-fitting repro sheet metal causes many complaints on this blog, apparently the company in Texas has a monopoly on a lot of it.

If anyone feels one can validly criticize an enterprise without deciding to embark upon it, is there an explanation why a better-quality product does not appear from a competing source? Why aren't body pans etc. made overseas to more original standards?

[Terry, NJ]

I think I read that the one producing the sheet metal has some original dies and they're wearing out. Any form that requires the metal to slide against the dies will have a lot of wear. Front fenders are especially bad. In your mind's eye imagine taking that from a flat sheet and making that form. The pulling and stretching forces are terrific. It's miracle that HF was able to form these at in one or two operations. It will take a young fortune to re-create the tooling to do this. I've always wondered what his scrap rate was.
Terry

[Jon W]

I have no knowledge of the quality level of various parts, but with today's manufacturing methods and automated means by which shapes can be digitized and tools created it is only the size of the market that determines if a new tool is justified or the old tool should be nursed along.

If tooling for a full set of fenders costs $200,000 in some offshore country and the number produced is only 1000 fenders of each the cost of tooling is relatively small. The cost of accurate tooling is the same as the cost for tooling that does not produce parts that fit right.

[ronn]

With as many original model A fenders that still exist, I am always amazed that repros
are even being reproduced and sold. It is quite a commitment to go that way and apparently,
not many lining up to do it. So good that there are suppliers at all.

[mhsprecher]

"The cost of accurate tooling is the same as the cost for tooling that does not produce parts that fit right."

I disagree with this statement. If it were as easy or the same cost, then the parts would be better. My conclusion is that the reason they do not fit is because it is either too difficult or too expensive to make them better.

[txkhog]

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There are several custom sheet metal crafts people that can make you any part you require with any precision you specify. Sorry but I am not one of those sheet metal people. If you look over on the custom build threads there are people that make miracles out of metal.

If you like/want that quality and you willing to pay for it, I am sure they will be glad to take your money.

Like it is said "if it was easy, everybody would do it". I make fancy stuff by machining metal and wood, but it is very difficult to support my family just doing that because people expect me to live on .50 cents an hour. Therefore I must have a real job.

Sorry for the rant
GDG

[DougVieyra]

TXKhog:

Your 'rant' helps us to better understand the answer to the question. Thank you for taking the time to help us understand.

[Bill Stipe]

The cost of tooling and big enough equipment to run the parts along with how many can be sold is the main reason I believe more quality parts are not reproduced.
I made 30-31 cowl patch dies back in 2004 there was a lot of design time to start with plus we made a proto type die to test first.
I wanted to make more panels but its always a gamble how many will sell to break even on our dies.

[jeep44]

I don't think some people realize how big a press is required to form a fender, and the size and complexity of the dies needed to produce those fenders. It's not just one *boom* operation, either- you have those wire-rolled edges, and the reinforcing plates in the "tail" of the fender.

[Larry Jenkins]

Originally Posted by jeep44

I don't think some people realize how big a press is required to form a fender, and the size and complexity of the dies needed to produce those fenders. It's not just one *boom* operation, either- you have those wire-rolled edges, and the reinforcing plates in the "tail" of the fender.

Way back when.. I saw an image of the huge press that was used to form the Model A front fenders.

I'll bet the forming dies cost more than the two-story press. There is actually not enough sales volume to justify the costs of producing the necessary tooling to make exact reproductions.

And, most of us do not have the skill to accurately do that. So, enter the marginal repros. Just hope you have the skills or know a Craftsman who can rework them into usable pieces.

Fiberglass entered the market, but does not satisfy the purist.

So.. What do we do?

[Mike V. Florida]

Price!

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Bill Stipe

The cost of tooling and big enough equipment to run the parts along with how many can be sold is the main reason I believe more quality parts are not reproduced.
I made 30-31 cowl patch dies back in 2004 there was a lot of design time to start with plus we made a proto type die to test first.
I wanted to make more panels but its always a gamble how many will sell to break even on our dies.

They are top notch!!!

[jeep44]

I was in a bit of a hurry when I dashed off my previous reply, but let me expand on that a bit: I'm a journeyman Diemaker, and I was also a press operator at times,too. As an example, I ran a press making a steel "bowl" for a transmission-it was about 12" in diameter, and maybe 2.5" deep-the press I ran was an 800 ton press, and the part was somewhat thinner than a model A fender. That press was two stories high, and maybe 20 feet long. That was one of our smaller presses-we had them up to 4000 tons-as big as a house, for sure, and three stories high. A part like a fender is Drawn in a die-basically held at the edges and stretched over the form of the die steels-so once you have formed the basic form of the fender, you still have to trim the uneven edges before you can proceed to the next operation, which would probably be rolling the edges. That fender die is also going to have to have accurately located details to produce the headlight bar mounts, and other closely-toleranced holes on the edges. The die sets are of course, going to have to be quite a bit bigger than the fender itself, with the details made up of specially coated die steels such as D-2-so many things to consider, but I've just touched on them.
So you want to find a factory in a foreign country to do it? No matter where you do it, they will still require skilled Diemakers and machinists, expensive materials, and enough press capacity to do it. Once they get the dies built, there will always be considerable try-out time and modifications involved before an acceptable-to-print part is produced.
I honestly don't think there are enough Model As being restored these days to justify the staggering cost.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ericr

Ill-fitting repro sheet metal causes many complaints on this blog, apparently the company in Texas has a monopoly on a lot of it.

If anyone feels one can validly criticize an enterprise without deciding to embark upon it, is there an explanation why a better-quality product does not appear from a competing source? Why aren't body pans etc. made overseas to more original standards?

Playing Devil's Advocate, why isn't there more Model-A hobbyists that actually do restoration work instead of replacement work? Maybe a kinder but just as blunt way to ask this is, What if no one reproduced any part for a Model-A except for tires & tubes. How many hobbyists could honestly say they have at least the minimum skills to be able to perform all facets of restoring a Model-A with some sort of resemblance of authenticity? Is part of the problem that we demand greater quality from others because we are unwilling to produce the acceptable level of quality ourselves?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Playing Devil's Advocate, Is part of the problem that we demand greater quality from others because we are unwilling to produce the acceptable level of quality ourselves?

No, we "demand greater quality" because we are parting with our hard earned money for a part advertised as a replacement for original. They are the professionals, they are making a living from making the parts. If a company that depends on sales to support themselves and those that work for them, a company whose workers are on the job 8 hours a day 5 days a week, can't produce a proper part, what chance do we have? Stipes can do it, why not others? (see post #11)

How many would be happy if after spending $500.00 you received a flat piece of steel, a hammer, and a photo of a front fender?

Again, playing devils advocate, if we were to "produce the acceptable level of quality ourselves", we would not need you and what would you do for a living?

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Playing Devil's Advocate, why isn't there more Model-A hobbyists that actually do restoration work instead of replacement work? Maybe a kinder but just as blunt way to ask this is, What if no one reproduced any part for a Model-A except for tires & tubes. How many hobbyists could honestly say they have at least the minimum skills to be able to perform all facets of restoring a Model-A with some sort of resemblance of authenticity? Is part of the problem that we demand greater quality from others because we are unwilling to produce the acceptable level of quality ourselves?

I for one don't have the knowledge, skill or ability to make sheet metal parts. Therefore I must rely on those who do. Sadly I relied on those folks from TX and got unusable junk.

[Randy in ca]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Playing Devil's Advocate, why isn't there more Model-A hobbyists that actually do restoration work instead of replacement work? Maybe a kinder but just as blunt way to ask this is, What if no one reproduced any part for a Model-A except for tires & tubes. How many hobbyists could honestly say they have at least the minimum skills to be able to perform all facets of restoring a Model-A with some sort of resemblance of authenticity? Is part of the problem that we demand greater quality from others because we are unwilling to produce the acceptable level of quality ourselves?

Well, for what it's worth, not very long ago there was a poll where a very high percentage of respondents (about 68% I think) claimed to do absolutely everything themselves. Must be at least a few who do!!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Interesting responses guys. So let me twist it this way, what if you were restoring a 1928-31 Harmon Sedan, ....who sells reproduction parts for those? The answer is; Some of the same guys that sell reproduction parts for Model-As.

If I have you confused, then consider that there are sheetmetal craftsmen out there that can reproduce Model-A sheetmetal to fine-point quality standards. The only issue i find is that most hobbyists will not budget the funds for that level of quality. Therefore is the issue with the craftsman ....or the hobbyists??

[ericr]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Interesting responses guys. So let me twist it this way, what if you were restoring a 1928-31 Harmon Sedan, ....who sells reproduction parts for those? The answer is; Some of the same guys that sell reproduction parts for Model-As.

If I have you confused, then consider that there are sheetmetal craftsmen out there that can reproduce Model-A sheetmetal to fine-point quality standards. The only issue i find is that most hobbyists will not budget the funds for that level of quality. Therefore is the issue with the craftsman ....or the hobbyists??

-neither, IMHO, it is merely the economics of supply and demand. look at the wonderful woodwork in houses from many decades ago, and then try nowadays to find a decent finish carpenter that you don't have to beg and wheedle to show up and work for you.

[Terry, NJ]

The reason you have to beg and wheedle is that the carpenter is so swamped with requests to do "My job"! If you are producing quality, there will always be a demand.
Terry

Originally Posted by ericr

-neither, IMHO, it is merely the economics of supply and demand. look at the wonderful woodwork in houses from many decades ago, and then try nowadays to find a decent finish carpenter that you don't have to beg and wheedle to show up and work for you.