Fertile imagination-alternative engine

[Russell Reay]

Now that I am deep into my rebuild, all sorts of possibilities come to mind. Most notably an alternative to the standard model A engine. FBarn members have described insert upgrades, Burtz engines, model B's, OHV kits, Cummins diesel, and the concept of an electric A really stirs the pot. I am thinking about a 4 cyl 'modern' alternative such as CJ 3- CJ 5, Ford 800 series tractor, Chevy II 4 cyl (not sure if there is such a thing), or Toyota 22 R. The plan would be to mate the engine to the model A flywheel housing so as to leave the wishbone intact, and leave everything aft of the clutch as Henry meant it. Mine currently runs fine, and I need to experience the true model A experience before embarking on a wild-a-s lark, but I wonder what others may have tried.

[Jordan]

One of my Model A's has a '73 Mustang II 2.8 mated to a Model A flywheel housing and transmission. I still say it took quite a bit of modification to the flywheel housing. This set up has bounced between different Model A's since the 70's. It is the smallest v6 ford ever made so it did not require any cutting to the frame or firewall.

The set up works well. The engine is getting tired. I will likely pull it soon and replace with something different. I am confident that if it had new rings it would go for another 40 years no problem. The only reason I am pulling is due to lack of compression and burning a little oil. It'll still cruise at 65 all day long if I want it to tho.

[old ugly]

seams you are talking about not so modern 4cylinder motors most of those are antiques.
pinto 2.3 motors fit into that category.

with all those installs come a complete driveline change, unless you can fine an adaptor.

in this forum you are probably not going to ge a lot of enthusiastic responses on this topic.

choices are yours. but if you are thinking that you will put a newer style engine in for now then go back to stock later, that will never happen, i have seen that so many times. once modified it wont go back.
if you want a hotrod build it. your choice. if you want stock. build it , your choice. but build it rite the first time.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by old ugly

seams you are talking about not so modern 4cylinder motors most of those are antiques.
pinto 2.3 motors fit into that category.

with all those installs come a complete driveline change, unless you can fine an adaptor.

in this forum you are probably not going to ge a lot of enthusiastic responses on this topic.

choices are yours. but if you are thinking that you will put a newer style engine in for now then go back to stock later, that will never happen, i have seen that so many times. once modified it wont go back.
if you want a hotrod build it. your choice. if you want stock. build it , your choice. but build it rite the first time.

This is very good advise.

However, I do believe that the more Model A’s that are butchered or rodded, this will only help the value of a really stock car. There only stock, non modified once.

Enjoy.

[eagle]

If you are going to replace the engine, why not the whole drivetrain? Find something that has the same or close width and length and drop the model A body on it, figure for the extra width requirements of wheel adapters for the original wheels. That way you'll get all of the advantages of modern brakes, auto transmission, modern efficient engine etc. Go big or go home. This is not for me, I love my stock A and I'll be keeping it that way.

[old ugly]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by WHN

This is very good advise.

However, I do believe that the more Model A’s that are butchered or rodded, this will only help the value of a really stock car. There only stock, non modified once.

Enjoy.

i am not an anti hotrodder. hotrodders have saved a lot of car bodies that would never have been used by anyone else. i have built lots of different style of cars and have brought back onto the road , as hotrods, cars that were beyond the realm of restoration. most will start with an inexpensive derelict and build from the ashes.
as far as value. a model A hotrod will fetch a greater $ than a stock one, in the same physical condition. the old guys are mostly too thrifty with their budgets and have more attachment to the old days. younger generation like the drivability at road speed and the attraction that goes with a hotrod.

my interests are in original cars or which i own 2 and have restored lots.
i like driving a car that operates and feels like it would have in its hayday.
i don't need to make my model A do 65mph and steer like a modern Japanese car.

[electricman]

After over 50 years of owning both restored and hot rod Model A's I am building a 30 coupe with a 81 Buick v6 backed by a Chevrolet S 10 five speed transmission and a Ford Maverick 8 inch third member. While not for everyone I am having a ball being challenged by the build and hope to end up with an original looking fun car to drive that can be returned to stock if someone chooses in the future. What ever you decide I hope you enjoy your time working in your shop. Eric

[Russell Reay]

Originally Posted by electricman

After over 50 years of owning both restored and hot rod Model A's I am building a 30 coupe with a 81 Buick v6 backed by a Chevrolet S 10 five speed transmission and a Ford Maverick 8 inch third member. While not for everyone I am having a ball being challenged by the build and hope to end up with an original looking fun car to drive that can be returned to stock if someone chooses in the future. What ever you decide I hope you enjoy your time working in your shop. Eric

My current build is my first model A. It is in sufficiently abused or neglected shape that I could rod it any which way and not feel guilty, but my interest is in rebuilding it (NOT restoring) to what it could have been. I would never rod/ modify a decent model A body, but a basket case mixed with some fiberglass, several unplanned drive train components, add a pile of welding rods, stir in many hours of free time, and the result could be fun.

[Als48]

I remember a thread on one of these sites, maybe HAMB, where a fellow was quite involved with using Chevy II/Mercruiser engines in his Model A. Charley Stevens comes to mind, not sure if that was him or not. Those are larger versions of the Chevy II/S-10 four cylinder engines from marine applications. 130 hp was a common boat size engine of that type.

Al H

[GeneBob]

When you start looking for engines that will fit without having to change the steering, brakes, firewall, frame, etc, there are not many that will work. The other factor to look at, if you are wanting to use the original trans and rear, is the torque of the replacement engine. The Model A engine provides a healthy amount of torque when compared to most of the newer engines that use twice the RPMs. The Model A engine with performance upgrades like ignition and especially higher compression does the Model A proud.
On the other hand, one engine family that you didn't list is the GMC "big block V6". These are monster truck motors that showed up in Suburbans and pickup trucks in the later 1960's. Look pretty cool for this application though.

[rotorwrench]

The Iron Duke is good engine but a person might consider a Burtz engine. It's modern, has 200 Cid, and bolts right in.

[Synchro909]

In this jurisdiction, if the power of the engine of a car is increased by 25% or more, it must be approved by a qualified (and registered) Automotive Engineer. Before he approves it, it must comply with the latest design rules. It is considered a new build. That means it must have seat belts installed to a satisfactory standard (almost impossible), 2 speed windscreen wipers, collapsible steering column, demister etc etc. The list goes on and on.
The options mentioned above are not going to happen but back in the 1980s, a way around the rules was found. A Mitsubishi Express van was stripped of its body and a vintage car body (not necessarily Model A) was planted on top. Most of the compliance issues had been taken care of by Mitsubishi but man, were there some weird looking cars about.

[Russell Reay]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The Iron Duke is good engine but a person might consider a Burtz engine. It's modern, has 200 Cid, and bolts right in.

From all I have read and heard about the Burtz, that would be my first choice if $$ were no object. Estimates for the cost of a Burtz ready to run is more than I spend for my daily driver--the whole car ! My strongest reservation about the original model A engine is the risk of failure of the babbit bearings and/or crankshaft due to lack of mains. Adding a HC head, and never-fail ignition and carb would be fun, but the lipstick on a pig analogy immediately comes to mind.

[GeneBob]

I don't know how far you think the newer engines would get you but the best bang for the buck is a good HC head, improved intake/exhaust manifolds, and improved ignition. The next stage would be a good cam. With these improvements, properly balanced in application, you can get most of the same HP as the 4 cylinder engines you were thinking about. It is hard to match the torque of the Model A engine with any of the newer 4 cylinder engines.

I think you should take a long look at the dynomometer results presented at the website for Piriano's Model A before you discount the original engine.

[rotorwrench]

To perform a complete overhaul with all needed repair items and new babbitt is also very expensive. A person has to weigh all of it to see what may be the best bang for the buck. Rebuilding any older 4-cylinder car engine other than OEM will save the babbitt cost but it still won't be real cheap and especially if a lot of adapt and change has to be done.

[nkaminar]

As others have mentioned the Burtz engine is a modern engine that looks like a Model A engine on the outside. With a Weber Carburetor, high compression head, a good cam, and some other minor modifications the output can be doubled. If you have an engine you can take a lot of the parts off of it, such as the flywheel housing, starter, water pump, generator/alternator, etc. Considering what you would have to do to install some of the engines you mentioned, this is probably the lowest cost option.

Synchro reminded me of a Model A pickup that had been grafted onto a small 4-wheel drive truck, like an old Toyota. This was many years ago. It looked pretty cool.

[gdmn852]

The Burtz engine would be a good choice,one EBay now is a 31 Slant Windshield Fordor that has a Toyota engine in , looks otherwise stock.

[old ugly]

a complete rebuild, here in Canada, on an original Model A engine, if you do every thing yourself except the machining and including the babbitt will cost you around $5500 cnd, i don't know what that would be in US dollars.
here in Canada to put that burtz engine together would be $10,000 cnd.

if the car is going to run at the speeds it was originally designed for (averaging 40-50mph) the oem engine will last a long time, trouble free. with regular maintenance it will probably out last its owner.

it may be less expensive to run an modern engine and travel faster but brakes, steering driveline and suspension are areas that will use up your money quickly.

before you start you need to know how the car is going to be used.

[Russell Reay]

Appreciate all the opinions. There is no such project planned, but I had to ask.

[old ugly]

keep us up to date on your progress. no matter what you do on it.
i like to see pictures, show us as you go.