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Old 05-30-2020, 10:53 AM   #1
PeteVS
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Default A question about colors

I've attached a couple of pictures and I'm wondering about the colors.
First is the dust jacket from Henry's Lady showing what I assume to be a '29 Phaeton. I like the color, sort of a khaki and orange wheels.
Second is a page from the MAFCA Paint and finish guide showing that a '29 Phaeton with orange wheels would be painted Rose Beige body color with Seal Brown belt moulding color.
Third, from the same book, is the color sample page showing "Rose Beige" but this Rose Beige looks nothing like the car in the first photo.
So, is the book cover car painted an "inappropriate" color? Or, is the page showing the color combination wrong? Or, is the color sample wrong? I had bought this book several years ago and remarked that most of the "dark" colors looked way too dark. I managed to lose that copy and recently bought this new copy and it still appears that those dark colors are still way too dark.
Thanks for any explanation you can offer!!
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File Type: jpg Model A color 01 small.JPG (111.7 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpeg Model A color 02 crop.jpeg (73.7 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg Model A color 03 small.jpg (26.9 KB, 82 views)
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Last edited by PeteVS; 05-30-2020 at 11:11 AM. Reason: Forgot images!
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:18 AM   #2
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Default Re: A question about colors

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteVS View Post
I've attached a couple of pictures and I'm wondering about the colors.
First is the dust jacket showing what I assume to be a '29 Phaeton. I like the color, sort of a khaki and orange wheels.
Second is a page from the MAFCA Paint and finish guide showing that a '29 Phaeton with orange wheels would be painted Rose Beige body color with Seal Brown belt moulding color.
Third, from the same book, is the color sample page showing "Rose Beige" but this Rose Beige looks nothing like the car in the first photo.
So, is the book cover car painted an "inappropriate" color? Or, is the page showing the color combination wrong? Or, is the color sample wrong? I had bought this book several years ago and remarked that most of the "dark" colors looked way too dark. I managed to lose that copy and recently bought this new copy and it still appears that those dark colors are still way too dark.
Thanks for any explanation you can offer!!
The table in the Paint & Finish Guide is correct. Rose Beige and Seal brown with an Orange pinstripe is one of the authentic paint combinations for a '29 Phaeton or Roadster. Painting the wheels Orange was an option done by many dealers at extra cost.

Which edition of the P&FG do you have? Does it have a date or an Edition number? The color chips in that book are probably correct.

If the color chips look dark to you, compared to printed images you see online or in books, it is because the printed materials are not accurate. It is very difficult to get those images to reproduce correctly. Many people lighten up the images because the look better in print (but they are not correct).

You also need to take the color chips in the book outside, not in direct sun, but in outdoor indirect light, to see the correct color. You can't trust what you see on a computer monitor.

There were some color charts printed in the 60's and 70's by major paint suppliers that had some colors done incorrectly. These errors have propagated through the hobby for years. This is often why people think the P&FG chips are too dark.

I hope this helps.
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:20 AM   #3
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Default Re: A question about colors

The closest authentic color combination for the jacket color is the Rose Beige and Seal Brown. Too often, restorers choose a 'close' color from a generic paint store chip book, and then tell onlookers that is is an authentic color.
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:49 AM   #4
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Default Re: A question about colors

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Which edition of the P&FG do you have? Does it have a date or an Edition number? The color chips in that book are probably correct.
I have the 3rd Edition Revised April 2008. I might have gotten a copy from old stock. Looking at the color samples under ANY light, outdoor, outdoor full sun, indoor incandescent or fluorescent or LED, there's no way that the color chip can be right.

So, is there a better source for color chips?
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Old 05-30-2020, 12:14 PM   #5
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Default Re: A question about colors

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I have the 3rd Edition Revised April 2008. I might have gotten a copy from old stock. Looking at the color samples under ANY light, outdoor, outdoor full sun, indoor incandescent or fluorescent or LED, there's no way that the color chip can be right.

So, is there a better source for color chips?
OK, you have the latest book. The colors of the paint chips in that book are correct. Those chips were printed, at considerable expense, by a company that specializes in this for the automotive and industrial paint industry. Every chip was compared to original Ford factory paint chips for each color.

As Brent said, many people in the past have used an existing paint color, chosen from a book, intended to be for another later model car, that they felt was "close enough" and used it because they liked it. Maybe they had no original sample to go by. Maybe they just liked what they chose more than the authentic color. I don't know.

You are not the first person to conclude that the paint chips in the P&FG are "wrong", "too dark", "can't be right". I've heard it before. They have been verified several times and are correct. Sorry that you don't like them.

This is why my Dad painted his '29 phaeton in a 1931 color scheme. He liked it better, even though it was incorrect for his year. He thought the '29 colors were not bright enough, not vibrant enough.
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Old 05-30-2020, 12:53 PM   #6
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Default Re: A question about colors

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I have heard the same thing about colors from the 60’s. Dad painted his Townsedan the correct color scheme in 67. But the rumor I heard was the DuPont had lost their codes and substituted a green for the copra and chicle drab. I have seen an original TS with the same combo and it way more on the brown side.

Side question for my own education. The color guide has chips but no codes. How does a paint shop make up the paint to the correct color? Do they have a database somewhere or do they scan the color chip?

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Old 05-30-2020, 01:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: A question about colors

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I have heard the same thing about colors from the 60ís. Dad painted his Townsedan the correct color scheme in 67. But the rumor I heard was the DuPont had lost their codes and substituted a green for the copra and chicle drab. I have seen an original TS with the same combo and it way more on the brown side.

Side question for my own education. The color guide has chips but no codes. How does a paint shop make up the paint to the correct color? Do they have a database somewhere or do they scan the color chip?

Mike
They scan the chip and mix some up. Some jobbers complain that the chip is too small for their scanner, others don't.

You take it home and spray a test panel. Prime the test panel with the same primer you plan to use on the vehicle. Color sand it out the same.

Compare test panel to the chip in the book out in indirect daylight. Bring it back to them to tweak if you do not like the match.
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Old 05-30-2020, 02:09 PM   #8
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Default Re: A question about colors

I don't know but that car on the dust jacket looks like the 1928 Arabian Sand color combination. This combination wasn't available in 1929. Rose Beige is not as light a color and Seal Brown is a dark brown color.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-31-2020 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 05-30-2020, 02:19 PM   #9
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Default Re: A question about colors

Does anyone have a good color picture of a Model A in "authentic" Rose Beige that they'd be willing to post here? Thanks! If it's actually a good match for the MAFCA color chip, I'll have to look elsewhere for a color I like.
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Old 05-30-2020, 02:39 PM   #10
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Default Re: A question about colors

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They scan the chip and mix some up. Some jobbers complain that the chip is too small for their scanner, others don't.

You take it home and spray a test panel. Prime the test panel with the same primer you plan to use on the vehicle. Color sand it out the same.

Compare test panel to the chip in the book out in indirect daylight. Bring it back to them to tweak if you do not like the match.
If you look up how the system works you will find that the scanner finds the closest color to what they have in their database not how to custom mix a color to match the sample.

"MeasureColor Mobile, available in the United States and Canada, combines cloud technology with a handheld, Bluetooth-enabled scanning device to read a color, interpret the data and quickly send the closest PPG color match to the app on a customerís tablet or smartphone."
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Old 05-30-2020, 09:37 PM   #11
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Default Re: A question about colors

Pete... here is my Rose Beige/Seal Brown phaeton ….. BUT it is a '28 and should not have been painted this scheme. But I hope it will help you.
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Old 05-31-2020, 03:56 AM   #12
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Default Re: A question about colors

A good tip I read, probably in this forum, is to get a sheet of black paper, and cut out a square the same size as the paint chip. Then pop it over the colour you are after and have a look. You will be surprised at the difference it makes.
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Old 05-31-2020, 06:06 AM   #13
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Default Re: A question about colors

I think my 29 Tudor may be Rose Beige/Seal Brown but not sure.
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Old 05-31-2020, 06:37 AM   #14
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Default Re: A question about colors

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Pete... here is my Rose Beige/Seal Brown phaeton Ö.. BUT it is a '28 and should not have been painted this scheme. But I hope it will help you.
Thanks Al!
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:07 AM   #15
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Default Re: A question about colors

Speaking of paint, where can i get lacquer paint? I know that it is prohibited in many states but if i can get a source i'll work out that problem. Jack
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Old 05-31-2020, 10:47 AM   #16
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Default Re: A question about colors

If they are very good like my friend at my workplace, they can scan it, locate the code, and adjust it to the chip. His mixings have always been spot on with no need for going back and test spraying.

Btw, laquer paint is not worth it. Almost everybody has moved to single stage at this point because of its durability, superiority, and ease of obtaining compared to laquer.
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Old 05-31-2020, 10:18 PM   #17
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Default Re: A question about colors

1931 coupe rose beige seal brown taken from a 1972 Model A paint pamphlet in existent at the time.




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Old 05-31-2020, 11:34 PM   #18
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Default Re: A question about colors

I have a roadster, Sierra blue and Washington blue. Many people look at it and see the car as two tone, one being a light blue with the mold lines being a darker blue with a pin stripe centered on it. I see three shades of the light blue, the front, hood and cowl is almost blue/green to me and it changes going toward the back, doors are a bit darker and the rear is darker yet, with no green to it that I see. Others see it as just the same light blue from front to back, so I'm guessing that I see colors differently than others. I have noticed the same thing on modern cars at car shows, where perhaps a tan fender will appear considerable more brown to me. If it is just one fender I often find that the fender has been resprayed the factory color and most people cannot detect a difference.
One of the firemen I worked with had a brand new Mustang and we were all admiring it. I told one of the guys I thought the front end was darker red and the guy really examined it closely and told me it was all the same. A week or two later he called me and said the dealer had taken the car back and repainted the whole thing as it had gone through a wall of their showroom, and when the buyer was getting a service some kid that worked there told him he had wrecked it and wondered how much off the dealer had allowed for that little error. They repainted the entire car and the paint all matched the next time I saw it.(Buyer sold the car shortly after as he couldn't drive a "wreck.")
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Old 06-01-2020, 08:07 AM   #19
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Unhappy Re: A question about colors

Here are two pictures of the same car under different lighting conditions. This car was painted with Ditzler lacquer paint 50 years ago. The painter had access to older Ditzler formula books to mix the paint. The painter was considered one of the best painters at that time and had several of his paint jobs on cars that won Best of Show awards at Dearborn. That is not to say that this is necessarily an exact representation of the actual Seal Brown/Rose Beige from the factory. I am guessing it is very close to factory colors. After 50 years the paint still looks good and is still waiting for the pin striper.
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Old 06-01-2020, 08:09 AM   #20
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Default Re: A question about colors

Second picture
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