The Ford Barn

wmws · 06-18-2015, 04:36 PM

If the brakes are fairly close to being centered do not the brakes center themselves when you apply the brakes? After all you are forcing the shoe out against the drum. Can someone explain. Thanks.

Kurt in NJ · 06-18-2015, 04:59 PM

What year brakes

wmws · 06-18-2015, 05:27 PM

My brakes are 28's, but don't they all work on the same principal?

Kevin in NJ · 06-18-2015, 07:41 PM

They are very restricted in their movement.

The wedge/cam end has some movement back and forth, but up and down (kind of sideways for the rear) the adjuster links are very restrictive.

Plus as you move the adjuster out you move the effective center of the shoes towards the wedge.

Keep in mind that Ford built the brakes with fairly tight tolerence when they were new. They clearly were not the best idea. If you were to follow the progession of the mechanical brakes you would get to 1936. By then they had the shoes with much more lattitude for floating in all directions.

Y-Blockhead · 06-18-2015, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

Plus as you move the adjuster out you move the effective center of the shoes towards the wedge.

So if I understand what your saying correctly every time the brakes are adjusted your shoes are no longer centered in the drums? Interesting.

nick c · 06-18-2015, 08:57 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I'm going to try and answer this one? They sell a brake centering tool with a dial indicator on it. To use this tool you would first have to adjust the top brake adjusting wedge. Second adjust your brake rods. Now slide your drum off. Install a brake centering tool check the top of the shoe and then the bottom, if they don't read the same then maybe the roller track is wore out and so is the pin that rides on the track. Hope this helps.
carry on nick c

Kevin in NJ · 06-19-2015, 05:58 AM

Something more to consider about the adjusting and center moving.

It is a very serious issue you need to be aware of when setting up you brakes initially. If you mess up something and have to move the adjuster out then you are messing up the center. This will cause less shoe contact and reduced braking. This is an issue if you have to move the adjuster a lot.

On the Other Hand....

If you have your shoes well fit and worn into the drums, then the adjustment is less of an issue as the shoes are pretty close to the drum. The effective movement of the center is not much.

Doing the brakes right on the A is something you really need to think about. Like many mechanical parts on the A. They are deceptively simple and need to be set up carefully. Done right they just work great for a long time.

Y-Blockhead · 06-19-2015, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

So if I understand what your saying correctly every time the brakes are adjusted your shoes are no longer centered in the drums? Interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

Something more to consider about the adjusting and center moving.

It is a very serious issue you need to be aware of when setting up you brakes initially. If you mess up something and have to move the adjuster out then you are messing up the center. This will cause less shoe contact and reduced braking. This is an issue if you have to move the adjuster a lot.

On the Other Hand....

If you have your shoes well fit and worn into the drums, then the adjustment is less of an issue as the shoes are pretty close to the drum. The effective movement of the center is not much.

Doing the brakes right on the A is something you really need to think about. Like many mechanical parts on the A. They are deceptively simple and need to be set up carefully. Done right they just work great for a long time.

Thanks for the feedback, it's all good to know.

ericr · 06-19-2015, 11:03 AM

I'm not sure anyone has directly answered Y-Blockhead's excellent question, nor do I have the answer. he is saying that a new brake job can be centered, but eventually the lining wears and even though the wear is even on the linings, a later adjustment is only on one end of the shoes. ergo adjustments for ordinary wear will throw the system off center.

wmws · 06-19-2015, 07:07 PM

How do you even go about centering the shoe. If your roller track is not worn and at the proper hight how do you adjust for centering?

Chris H · 07-28-2015, 07:30 AM

I see that no one has really answered the question in post #10. I have been searching the posts for the procedure on properly centering the shoes inside the drums but really don't see an answer. (Unless I missed it, somehow!) I have looked thru all my books, Andrews, Ford service, etc. (and I have a pretty good library on the A). I even bought the video, How to Stop on A Dime. Centering is not even mentioned!
I am getting ready to install new drums and rebuilt backer plates from Randy Gross, but don't really know where to begin to do the centering. I have a centering tool on it's way. I just want to do it right. I want to learn on the way.
Thanks again for all the help.
Chris

Y-Blockhead · 07-28-2015, 10:34 AM

While I’m sure there is a right way to center the brakes (and possibly easier) what I did since I had to build up the front brake roller tracks is when I was grinding them flat, while trial fitting, I got the up and down fitment as close as possible. Then I installed the front brake wedge stud floater kit (Bratton’s #2870) for the front to rear alignment of the shoes.

On the rear I also had to build up the brake roller tracks but just ground them down to specs. Then I installed Flat Head Ted’s shoe centering pins. I like these because not only do they help center the shoes but since they are flat they have much more contact area on the roller tracks than the stock round pins, thus the tracks should wear evenly.

All this I basically had to teach myself as I went along because as you stated there isn’t much info on centering the shoes (that I could find). It is certainly NOT a job you can rush, especially for the first time. Gives a new meaning to "Brake Job". I found the “How to Stop on a Dime” video a waste of time and money.

After a couple miles (hundreds?) I plan to pull the drums and see how everything is seating in.

Chris, hope some of the above helps you. I'm open to suggestions from others. Or if I'm full of crap you can tell me that too...

It does STOP good!!

redmodelt · 07-28-2015, 10:55 AM

Back in the day you could buy the roller pin with a larger head depending on your need to move the shoe up to center better. So far what I have been doing is;
set all the rods to the same length,
install new clevis pins (over sized or standard as needed).
replace clevis or repair as needed,
re-do the tracks,
pick the shoes with the best holes along with new pins and rollers,
get a set of adjusting pins that are all about the same,
re-line the shoes with woven lining,
fit the shoes to drums,
add pills as needed to front along with floaters,
new bushing and cams for rear,
install new cast iron drums,
install shoes and drums,
adjust,
test drive,
adjust as needed.
After the car has been driven a while have customer bring car back to check adjustment of shoes. That give brake shoes time to get seated.

Chris H · 07-29-2015, 07:26 AM

Thanks Y-Blockhead and Redmodelt for the reply. I would agree that the video "How to Stop on a Dime" was a waste of money! It was described to cover centering, and didn't. I am very disappointed.
I guess I will fumble through the process. Maybe it will become apparent to me in the process of doing it. If it means shifting things around to center the shoes before installing the drums? That is what I will try first. I have heard of trying to bend the roller tracks, but that does not sound right to me. Sounds like that is a good way to break something. In any event, I will give the shifting a try and see what happens, without bending anything, that is. Thanks again.
Chris

BILL WILLIAMSON · 07-29-2015, 09:48 AM

Those available "FLOATER" anchor pins for the brake operating wedge are quite a help in brake shoe centering. Chief said they used to file the originals, to get a little "slop"---In his OLD DAYS, it was a common thing for the Dealers' Shops to file them. The Dealers even used the ROOFING NAIL, in the overflow, ALSO! Between crops, Chief worked part time, for a small Dealer & picked up on some of their "FIXES"!--SO, I'm not just spouting B.S, it came straight from the HORSES' MOUTH!
Bill W.

redmodelt · 07-29-2015, 10:04 AM

"I have heard of trying to bend the roller tracks" Read that too. After ruminating on it a bit came to the conclusion, why would you make a ramp that would push the shoe up as it moved out after doing all that work to bring the tracks back to correct configuration.

I think Ted's kit comes with square headed roller pins. Each side is made to allow the shoe to be moved up or down by a certain amount for centering. Instead of rolling they slide.

ericr · 07-29-2015, 10:56 AM

in one of the Service Letters, there is a discussion about how dealers had requested to purchase new roller tracks for reinstallation on old backing plates, which the Company refused to do, saying that manufacture of the assembly required putting it on a factory jig to grind the ears to precise specs. yet another example of where we have problems with these cars today that owners never had to face when the cars were new and factory parts available.

it is odd to me that no detailed service information ever appeared in writing regarding centering, etc., especially when one sees great specifics in the Service Bulletin over what seems like common-sense situations.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 07-29-2015, 10:05 PM

[QUOTE=ericr;1129714]in one of the Service Letters, there is a discussion about how dealers had requested to purchase new roller tracks for reinstallation on old backing plates, which the Company refused to do, saying that manufacture of the assembly required putting it on a factory jig to grind the ears to precise specs. yet another example of where we have problems with these cars today that owners never had to face when the cars were new and factory parts available.

it is odd to me that no detailed service information ever appeared in writing regarding centering, etc., especially when one sees great specifics in the Service Bulletin over what seems like common-sense situations[QUOTE]
Remember, these cars were something NEW & Dealer Technicians were learning NEW STUFF & we have no idea what types of WARRANTY problems they might be encountering & the types of FIXES they might have devised to keep a customer HAPPY. Just because a car is NEW, doesn't make it PERFECT.
Even the ROOFING nail in the overflow was an early DEALER FIX!
Bill W.

redmodelt · 07-29-2015, 10:12 PM

Someone here pointed out that the later (V8?) Service Letters did have centering information the applied to the Model A as well as Wilson tools to do the job. For most of us there are tools and parts that we don't have access to that would have been off the shelf items in the day.

06-18-2015, 05:27 PM	#3
wmws BANNED Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Coatesville, Pa Posts: 719	Re: Brake centering My brakes are 28's, but don't they all work on the same principal?

06-18-2015, 07:41 PM	#4
Kevin in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South East NJ Posts: 3,398	Re: Brake centering They are very restricted in their movement. The wedge/cam end has some movement back and forth, but up and down (kind of sideways for the rear) the adjuster links are very restrictive. Plus as you move the adjuster out you move the effective center of the shoes towards the wedge. Keep in mind that Ford built the brakes with fairly tight tolerence when they were new. They clearly were not the best idea. If you were to follow the progession of the mechanical brakes you would get to 1936. By then they had the shoes with much more lattitude for floating in all directions.

06-18-2015, 08:57 PM	#6
nick c Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 260	Re: Brake centering Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I'm going to try and answer this one? They sell a brake centering tool with a dial indicator on it. To use this tool you would first have to adjust the top brake adjusting wedge. Second adjust your brake rods. Now slide your drum off. Install a brake centering tool check the top of the shoe and then the bottom, if they don't read the same then maybe the roller track is wore out and so is the pin that rides on the track. Hope this helps. carry on nick c

06-19-2015, 05:58 AM	#7
Kevin in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South East NJ Posts: 3,398	Re: Brake centering Something more to consider about the adjusting and center moving. It is a very serious issue you need to be aware of when setting up you brakes initially. If you mess up something and have to move the adjuster out then you are messing up the center. This will cause less shoe contact and reduced braking. This is an issue if you have to move the adjuster a lot. On the Other Hand.... If you have your shoes well fit and worn into the drums, then the adjustment is less of an issue as the shoes are pretty close to the drum. The effective movement of the center is not much. Doing the brakes right on the A is something you really need to think about. Like many mechanical parts on the A. They are deceptively simple and need to be set up carefully. Done right they just work great for a long time.

06-19-2015, 11:03 AM	#9
ericr Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 1,542	Re: Brake centering I'm not sure anyone has directly answered Y-Blockhead's excellent question, nor do I have the answer. he is saying that a new brake job can be centered, but eventually the lining wears and even though the wear is even on the linings, a later adjustment is only on one end of the shoes. ergo adjustments for ordinary wear will throw the system off center.

06-18-2015, 04:36 PM	#1
wmws BANNED Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Coatesville, Pa Posts: 719	Brake centering If the brakes are fairly close to being centered do not the brakes center themselves when you apply the brakes? After all you are forcing the shoe out against the drum. Can someone explain. Thanks.

06-18-2015, 04:59 PM	#2
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,166	Re: Brake centering What year brakes

06-19-2015, 07:07 PM	#10
wmws BANNED Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Coatesville, Pa Posts: 719	Re: Brake centering How do you even go about centering the shoe. If your roller track is not worn and at the proper hight how do you adjust for centering?

07-28-2015, 07:30 AM	#11
Chris H Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Wood River, IL Posts: 119	Re: Brake centering I see that no one has really answered the question in post #10. I have been searching the posts for the procedure on properly centering the shoes inside the drums but really don't see an answer. (Unless I missed it, somehow!) I have looked thru all my books, Andrews, Ford service, etc. (and I have a pretty good library on the A). I even bought the video, How to Stop on A Dime. Centering is not even mentioned! I am getting ready to install new drums and rebuilt backer plates from Randy Gross, but don't really know where to begin to do the centering. I have a centering tool on it's way. I just want to do it right. I want to learn on the way. Thanks again for all the help. Chris

07-28-2015, 10:34 AM	#12
Y-Blockhead Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Redondo Beach, CA Posts: 5,856	Re: Brake centering While I’m sure there is a right way to center the brakes (and possibly easier) what I did since I had to build up the front brake roller tracks is when I was grinding them flat, while trial fitting, I got the up and down fitment as close as possible. Then I installed the front brake wedge stud floater kit (Bratton’s #2870) for the front to rear alignment of the shoes. On the rear I also had to build up the brake roller tracks but just ground them down to specs. Then I installed Flat Head Ted’s shoe centering pins. I like these because not only do they help center the shoes but since they are flat they have much more contact area on the roller tracks than the stock round pins, thus the tracks should wear evenly. All this I basically had to teach myself as I went along because as you stated there isn’t much info on centering the shoes (that I could find). It is certainly NOT a job you can rush, especially for the first time. Gives a new meaning to "Brake Job". I found the “How to Stop on a Dime” video a waste of time and money. After a couple miles (hundreds?) I plan to pull the drums and see how everything is seating in. Chris, hope some of the above helps you. I'm open to suggestions from others. Or if I'm full of crap you can tell me that too... It does STOP good!! Last edited by Y-Blockhead; 07-28-2015 at 01:06 PM.

07-28-2015, 10:55 AM	#13
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,347	Re: Brake centering Back in the day you could buy the roller pin with a larger head depending on your need to move the shoe up to center better. So far what I have been doing is; set all the rods to the same length, install new clevis pins (over sized or standard as needed). replace clevis or repair as needed, re-do the tracks, pick the shoes with the best holes along with new pins and rollers, get a set of adjusting pins that are all about the same, re-line the shoes with woven lining, fit the shoes to drums, add pills as needed to front along with floaters, new bushing and cams for rear, install new cast iron drums, install shoes and drums, adjust, test drive, adjust as needed. After the car has been driven a while have customer bring car back to check adjustment of shoes. That give brake shoes time to get seated.

07-29-2015, 07:26 AM	#14
Chris H Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Wood River, IL Posts: 119	Re: Brake centering Thanks Y-Blockhead and Redmodelt for the reply. I would agree that the video "How to Stop on a Dime" was a waste of money! It was described to cover centering, and didn't. I am very disappointed. I guess I will fumble through the process. Maybe it will become apparent to me in the process of doing it. If it means shifting things around to center the shoes before installing the drums? That is what I will try first. I have heard of trying to bend the roller tracks, but that does not sound right to me. Sounds like that is a good way to break something. In any event, I will give the shifting a try and see what happens, without bending anything, that is. Thanks again. Chris

07-29-2015, 09:48 AM	#15
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Brake centering Those available "FLOATER" anchor pins for the brake operating wedge are quite a help in brake shoe centering. Chief said they used to file the originals, to get a little "slop"---In his OLD DAYS, it was a common thing for the Dealers' Shops to file them. The Dealers even used the ROOFING NAIL, in the overflow, ALSO! Between crops, Chief worked part time, for a small Dealer & picked up on some of their "FIXES"!--SO, I'm not just spouting B.S, it came straight from the HORSES' MOUTH! Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

07-29-2015, 10:04 AM	#16
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,347	Re: Brake centering "I have heard of trying to bend the roller tracks" Read that too. After ruminating on it a bit came to the conclusion, why would you make a ramp that would push the shoe up as it moved out after doing all that work to bring the tracks back to correct configuration. I think Ted's kit comes with square headed roller pins. Each side is made to allow the shoe to be moved up or down by a certain amount for centering. Instead of rolling they slide.

07-29-2015, 10:56 AM	#17
ericr Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 1,542	Re: Brake centering in one of the Service Letters, there is a discussion about how dealers had requested to purchase new roller tracks for reinstallation on old backing plates, which the Company refused to do, saying that manufacture of the assembly required putting it on a factory jig to grind the ears to precise specs. yet another example of where we have problems with these cars today that owners never had to face when the cars were new and factory parts available. it is odd to me that no detailed service information ever appeared in writing regarding centering, etc., especially when one sees great specifics in the Service Bulletin over what seems like common-sense situations.

07-29-2015, 10:05 PM	#18
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Brake centering [QUOTE=ericr;1129714]in one of the Service Letters, there is a discussion about how dealers had requested to purchase new roller tracks for reinstallation on old backing plates, which the Company refused to do, saying that manufacture of the assembly required putting it on a factory jig to grind the ears to precise specs. yet another example of where we have problems with these cars today that owners never had to face when the cars were new and factory parts available. it is odd to me that no detailed service information ever appeared in writing regarding centering, etc., especially when one sees great specifics in the Service Bulletin over what seems like common-sense situations[QUOTE] Remember, these cars were something NEW & Dealer Technicians were learning NEW STUFF & we have no idea what types of WARRANTY problems they might be encountering & the types of FIXES they might have devised to keep a customer HAPPY. Just because a car is NEW, doesn't make it PERFECT. Even the ROOFING nail in the overflow was an early DEALER FIX! Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

07-29-2015, 10:12 PM	#19
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,347	Re: Brake centering Someone here pointed out that the later (V8?) Service Letters did have centering information the applied to the Model A as well as Wilson tools to do the job. For most of us there are tools and parts that we don't have access to that would have been off the shelf items in the day.