The Ford Barn

J Franklin · 08-26-2021, 07:53 PM

A lot of people don't take everything into consideration when they try modifications from original, it happens.

philcobill · 08-27-2021, 10:01 AM

I placed an order on line for the 3-3/4 " studs at Allens Fasteners. He said that they are on back order and will not be available until at least October.
Does someone know of another source?

alexiskai · 08-27-2021, 10:22 AM

What a pain. Looks like they're sold out at other sites too. One thing you could try is to contact ARP directly and find out which stud kits include that size.

If you end up one stud short I'll send you the one I have.

philcobill · 08-27-2021, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexiskai

What a pain. Looks like they're sold out at other sites too. One thing you could try is to contact ARP directly and find out which stud kits include that size.

If you end up one stud short I'll send you the one I have.

What is the length of the ignition cable stud? Just a stab in the dark, is it possible they could fit?

philcobill · 08-27-2021, 10:50 AM

I am looking at the ignition cable stud in front of me and it is 3-3/4 inches long. It seems to me that they should work. If not I can just return them.

Bill

philcobill · 08-27-2021, 11:09 AM

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Would Grade 5 work? None of the Model A suppliers seem to have Grade 8 3.75 studs

hardtimes · 08-27-2021, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philcobill

Would Grade 5 work? None of the Model A suppliers seem to have Grade 8 3.75 studs

Yes, new grade 5 will work !

Please read the mans original posted WORDS… ALUMINUM head !!

And you should use a good hard quality GOOD fitting (i. e.- inside and outside dia washer).

Question: whose alum head made by ?
Some alum heads are MUCH thicker/ taller than cast iron… for various reasons. Ergo… the stud differences.

Example given: The Brierley alum flathead, comes with longer studs, etc.

alexiskai · 08-27-2021, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philcobill

I am looking at the ignition cable stud in front of me and it is 3-3/4 inches long. It seems to me that they should work. If not I can just return them.

Bill

That's a great idea, you could definitely order 11 more of those.

philcobill · 08-27-2021, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexiskai

That's a great idea, you could definitely order 11 more of those.

I ordered some from a vendor. I hope they will work.

Bill

philcobill · 08-27-2021, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Yes, new grade 5 will work !

Please read the mans original posted WORDS… ALUMINUM head !!

And you should use a good hard quality GOOD fitting (i. e.- inside and outside dia washer).

Question: whose alum head made by ?
Some alum heads are MUCH thicker/ taller than cast iron… for various reasons. Ergo… the stud differences.

Example given: The Brierley alum flathead, comes with longer studs, etc.

I have been trying to find out who made the head, but no one seems to know for sure. On the head, there is a raised mark for 1964 which I imagine was the year it was made, and a raised "R" with a circle around it.

Bill

philcobill · 08-27-2021, 01:29 PM

Several of the surfaces on the head where the washer sits (Not sure, but think they are called "spot faces") are kind of rough and uneven. That is because the nuts on the head were torqued down without washers. I also imagine that before that someone used washers because there are washer-sized indentations on the spot faces.

Do I need to worry about the "spot faces" or am I overthinking this?

alexiskai · 08-27-2021, 01:37 PM

Depends how bad it is. The risk is that the washer will sit cock-eyed because of the galling, which would lead to less of the torque on the nut being transferred to clamp load. You could grind it smooth, but I'm not sure how you'd do that with hand tools in a way that would create a perfectly flat surface.

Again, seems like something you might need to take it to a machinist for. Hard to tell without looking at it.

hardtimes · 08-28-2021, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philcobill

I have been trying to find out who made the head, but no one seems to know for sure. On the head, there is a raised mark for 1964 which I imagine was the year it was made, and a raised "R" with a circle around it.

Bill

Hey Bill,
I believe there were a number of off brand aluminum heads made thru the decades. Hard to ID source of some that I’ve seen.
Since you have this head off, I’d take it to a machinist, to have it lightly ‘spotfaced’.
The mess it is in now…. Is the reason proper washers should have been used originally, eh !

nkaminar · 08-28-2021, 08:54 AM

"I placed an order on line for the 3-3/4 " studs at Allens Fasteners. He said that they are on back order and will not be available until at least October.
Does someone know of another source?"

McMaster Carr has almost any stud. See https://www.mcmaster.com/studs/

alexiskai · 08-28-2021, 09:07 AM

I'd be careful buying cylinder head studs from an industrial supplier. The thread fit is likely to be too loose for this application. When I was researching my block-thread-testing video, I had a really hard time finding a short stud to use for the tests that had the same fit class as normal head studs.

chrs1961815 · 08-28-2021, 09:58 AM

McMaster Carr doesn't carry studs like the Model A that have different threads on both ends.

philcobill · 08-28-2021, 04:48 PM

Well, I took my aluminum head to a local Model A chapter meeting today to have others inspect it. The chapter mechanic looked at the head and pointed out a couple of potential problems. One of the problems he pointed out was that someone used a drill and cut out material around where the gasket touches the cylinder opening on the head. He said that it is very close to being compromised for future potential leaks. I am posting photos of the areas he pointed out to me.

So, I think that even though I could possibly re-use the aluminum cylinder head and get some life out of it, but with the potential for leaks and with the galling on the spot faces, the cylinder head is in marginal condition at best. Therefore, I am seriously considering scrapping the head and purchasing a high compression cast iron head and installing it instead of messing around trying to get the aluminum head to work. This is more likely to be less trouble in the long run.

Bill

nkaminar · 08-28-2021, 05:22 PM

Wise choice, Bill. You can probably sell the aluminum head to someone who wants to re-machine it.

chrs1961815 · 08-28-2021, 07:39 PM

I wouldn't scrap it - keep it for yourself or sell it. It certainly is better than scrap.

aermotor · 08-28-2021, 09:12 PM

I may be assuming incorrectly that this engine was not running when the car was purchased. Referring back to your post #20, how do you know for sure that the distributor fits correctly other than the fact that the distributor may have been seating on the head with the locator pin in. The distributor drive shaft may be too short for the head thickness. Be sure to check all that out with this mod. before dumping more money into stud length etc. You may be looking at a longer drive shaft being machined and/or different thickness or type of head gasket to make it work in addition to stud length. Mods. can end up being an expensive can of worms, nothing wrong with being original and nothing gained with mods. IMHO

John

08-26-2021, 07:53 PM	#21
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,963	Re: Are These Head Studs Long Enough? A lot of people don't take everything into consideration when they try modifications from original, it happens.

08-27-2021, 10:01 AM	#22
philcobill Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: Walworth, New York Posts: 138	Re: Are These Head Studs Long Enough? I placed an order on line for the 3-3/4 " studs at Allens Fasteners. He said that they are on back order and will not be available until at least October. Does someone know of another source? Last edited by philcobill; 08-27-2021 at 10:22 AM.

08-27-2021, 10:22 AM	#23
alexiskai Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Mebane NC Posts: 2,355	Re: Are These Head Studs Long Enough? What a pain. Looks like they're sold out at other sites too. One thing you could try is to contact ARP directly and find out which stud kits include that size. If you end up one stud short I'll send you the one I have.

08-27-2021, 11:09 AM	#26
philcobill Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: Walworth, New York Posts: 138	Re: Are These Head Studs Long Enough? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Would Grade 5 work? None of the Model A suppliers seem to have Grade 8 3.75 studs

08-27-2021, 01:29 PM	#31
philcobill Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: Walworth, New York Posts: 138	Re: Are These Head Studs Long Enough? Several of the surfaces on the head where the washer sits (Not sure, but think they are called "spot faces") are kind of rough and uneven. That is because the nuts on the head were torqued down without washers. I also imagine that before that someone used washers because there are washer-sized indentations on the spot faces. Do I need to worry about the "spot faces" or am I overthinking this?

08-27-2021, 01:37 PM	#32
alexiskai Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Mebane NC Posts: 2,355	Re: Are These Head Studs Long Enough? Depends how bad it is. The risk is that the washer will sit cock-eyed because of the galling, which would lead to less of the torque on the nut being transferred to clamp load. You could grind it smooth, but I'm not sure how you'd do that with hand tools in a way that would create a perfectly flat surface. Again, seems like something you might need to take it to a machinist for. Hard to tell without looking at it.

08-28-2021, 08:54 AM	#34
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Are These Head Studs Long Enough? "I placed an order on line for the 3-3/4 " studs at Allens Fasteners. He said that they are on back order and will not be available until at least October. Does someone know of another source?" McMaster Carr has almost any stud. See https://www.mcmaster.com/studs/ __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

08-28-2021, 09:07 AM	#35
alexiskai Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Mebane NC Posts: 2,355	Re: Are These Head Studs Long Enough? I'd be careful buying cylinder head studs from an industrial supplier. The thread fit is likely to be too loose for this application. When I was researching my block-thread-testing video, I had a really hard time finding a short stud to use for the tests that had the same fit class as normal head studs.

08-28-2021, 09:58 AM	#36
chrs1961815 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Spring Grove, Illinois Posts: 1,371	Re: Are These Head Studs Long Enough? McMaster Carr doesn't carry studs like the Model A that have different threads on both ends. __________________ "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

08-28-2021, 05:22 PM	#38
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Are These Head Studs Long Enough? Wise choice, Bill. You can probably sell the aluminum head to someone who wants to re-machine it. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

08-28-2021, 07:39 PM	#39
chrs1961815 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Spring Grove, Illinois Posts: 1,371	Re: Are These Head Studs Long Enough? I wouldn't scrap it - keep it for yourself or sell it. It certainly is better than scrap. __________________ "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

08-28-2021, 09:12 PM	#40
aermotor Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,099	Re: Are These Head Studs Long Enough? I may be assuming incorrectly that this engine was not running when the car was purchased. Referring back to your post #20, how do you know for sure that the distributor fits correctly other than the fact that the distributor may have been seating on the head with the locator pin in. The distributor drive shaft may be too short for the head thickness. Be sure to check all that out with this mod. before dumping more money into stud length etc. You may be looking at a longer drive shaft being machined and/or different thickness or type of head gasket to make it work in addition to stud length. Mods. can end up being an expensive can of worms, nothing wrong with being original and nothing gained with mods. IMHO John Last edited by aermotor; 08-28-2021 at 09:31 PM.