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Old 05-18-2019, 06:26 AM   #1
1929
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Default Gas?

I was at a landscape equipment store yesterday, the owner said, do not leave gas in any equipment, lawnmower, leaf blower etc. for over a month. Should that be the same rule with The Model A, since all gas here has 10% Ethanol? I do use Sta-bil additive, does that help if its over a month in the tank?
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:30 AM   #2
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1929,
Some winters I've used Sta-bil and some winters I haven't. It doesn't seem to make any difference. I've driven my car for 26 years. I guess it's your choice.
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:36 AM   #3
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We try to leave as little gas as possible in our car when we put it away, also Sta-bil. November to May and in over 40 years never a problem.

With our mowers, generator, and tractor. Also use Sta-bil. Run carburetors dry. Enjoy.
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Old 05-18-2019, 08:12 AM   #4
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Sta-bil is not the only product which will prolong the "life" of gasoline with ethanol. There are several on the market however I've not seen anything about which one is supposed to be the best......
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Old 05-18-2019, 08:52 AM   #5
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Take a quart jar and fill it with E gas, put the lid on loosely, and set it on a shelf. In a month or so look at it. It will have collected moisture out of the air which will bond with the alcohol and settle out. When you start the A thats the crud you will be pulling into the carb first. Some will swear that they have no problems, some just swear...
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Old 05-18-2019, 09:17 AM   #6
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A lot of it depends on the average relative humidity in your area.
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Old 05-18-2019, 02:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: Gas?

Here is some reading material for you.


http://www.fuel-testers.com/review_g..._products.html


Personally I store over Winter with the tank full, with Stabil Marine in it, and ethanol free from a Station here in town that sells only ethanol free. I turn off the fuel shutoff, run the carb dry, empty the sediment bulb, and drain the carb. Run ethanol free during driving season with 2-3 oz. of Marvel Mystery oil per tankful.
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:50 PM   #8
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Marvel mystery oil that's all!!
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Old 05-18-2019, 07:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WHN View Post
We try to leave as little gas as possible in our car when we put it away, also Sta-bil. November to May and in over 40 years never a problem.

With our mowers, generator, and tractor. Also use Sta-bil. Run carburetors dry. Enjoy.
I would recommend just the opposite. I fill my tank to the very brim. (Although shutting off the fuel and running the carb dry is a good idea.) An empty tank is an invitation for condensation and rust in your gas tank. With the tank full there is no air in the tank, and no condensation. When I used to work on the flight line at Conn. Air Service during college we would top off all the flight school's aircraft every night before putting them in the hanger to avoid condensation.

Even with ethanol in the gas, if there is no air in contact with the gas in the tank, then the ethanol can't draw moisture out of it.
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Old 05-18-2019, 07:26 PM   #10
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Default Re: Gas?

A model A gas tank is vented to the atmosphere.
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Old 05-19-2019, 12:18 AM   #11
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How do you think rust got in tanks that never had modern gas in them? Condensation. Modern gas or not you can still have condensation.
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Old 05-19-2019, 07:51 AM   #12
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Here’s what I have done the last two years...

Completely fill Model A tank right before storage. I cut a spare firewall/carb fuel line in half and put flexible fuel line on the cut end. Attach to sediment bulb. I use this hose and the gas shut-off valve to fill a gas can for my snowblower. If the A drops below 1/2 tank, I take the five gallon can down to the station and fill it and put it in the A. This allows me to always have enough snowblower gas, I reduce the possibility of tank condensation, my shut-off valve gets used, and I always have fresh gas for spring startup.
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Old 05-19-2019, 08:15 AM   #13
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There is still ethanol free available here, it's all I use for small engines and classics.
I use 1 oz per gallon of Seafoam, and keep tanks full and carbs dry.
A small amount of fuel in a tank full of air will go bad a lot faster than a full tank with no room for air to "breath" in through the vent with temp changes.
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Old 05-19-2019, 09:00 AM   #14
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Default Re: Gas?

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How do you think rust got in tanks that never had modern gas in them? Condensation. Modern gas or not you can still have condensation.
In fact, with gas that doesn't contain ethanol, any condensation that develops does not mix with the gas but goes immediately to the bottom of the tank and starts working on it. Gas floats on water.

With E10, the condensation mixes with the ethanol and stays in suspension...to a point. When the ethanol becomes saturated with water, the water will ultimately precipitate out. Up until that point, you will not notice the water that is mixed with the E10. You will immediately notice any water mixed with the non E10 fuel since it will be at the bottom of the tank and will be the first liquid that goes to the carb.
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Old 05-19-2019, 09:44 AM   #15
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Small engines have very small passages in the little plastic carburetors so if they get varnish or crud build up, eventually they will no longer pass gasoline properly. This makes it a very good idea to store small engines with no fuel in them.

Modern fuel is a lot different than it was 30 or 40 years ago. It has a tendency to deteriorate with any outside air contact. It will turn to a mixture that smells like turpentine within 6-months. The best fuels available at the pump are those that are marketed as 93 octane since it is a more stable fuel but also more expensive. Fuel with ethanol deteriorates faster than fuel with no ethanol. The ethanol absorbs the condense and becomes more dense so it rolls around in the bottom of the tank and picks up old crud plus it can suffer from some microbial growth making the mixture like fuzzy blobs that roll around in the tank with motion or movement from normal driving conditions. The stuff also tends to get acidic and can create more problems with the fuel system over time.

Avoid ethanol fuel or use premium fuel. That's about all you can do to slow fuel deterioration to a minimum.

Model A fuel tanks will still have an area on top inside that will condense water out under the right conditions even when full. It's very hard to stop condensation unless you control the climate in your garage.
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Old 05-19-2019, 10:21 AM   #16
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Default Re: Gas?

I live in an area that has some pretty harsh winter weather. I drain the fuel out of the tanks of my mowers, line trimmers etc... and run the carburetors dry.
For my Model AA I keep the tank full and drive it every chance I get when the roads are dry.
No putting it away for the winter for me.
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Old 05-19-2019, 01:54 PM   #17
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I was once told by an older mechanic to fill to full with Non-ethanol, and then put a plastic bag under the gas cap and tighten the gap down. Said it would help condensate from getting in through the cap vent holes.


Any truth to this? I don't know.
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Old 05-19-2019, 10:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: Gas?

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I was once told by an older mechanic to fill to full with Non-ethanol, and then put a plastic bag under the gas cap and tighten the gap down. Said it would help condensate from getting in through the cap vent holes.


Any truth to this? I don't know.
You can also use a non vented radiator cap during the long road salt season.
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Old 05-19-2019, 11:34 PM   #19
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I live in an area that has some pretty harsh winter weather. I drain the fuel out of the tanks of my mowers, line trimmers etc... and run the carburetors dry.
For my Model AA I keep the tank full and drive it every chance I get when the roads are dry.
No putting it away for the winter for me.

Good to see not everyone on this forum is a cry baby.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:10 AM   #20
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Default Re: Gas?

So according to the fuel-testers products like Sta-bil don't really do what they say they do? I don't believe that to be true because I've used the product and others of the same type in my small engines and have not had the starting problems caused by stale gas that I did in the past.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:14 AM   #21
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In South Florida -- only store during a Hurricane !!
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:30 AM   #22
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So according to the fuel-testers products like Sta-bil don't really do what they say they do? I don't believe that to be true because I've used the product and others of the same type in my small engines and have not had the starting problems caused by stale gas that I did in the past.

The way I interpreted the results Stabil is one of only 3 products they recommend. The issue is other products have some form of alcohol in them, which actually attracts moisture into gas. Ethanol gas already has ethanol (alcohol) in it, so with most additives you are adding more alcohol.


I talked with a couple of boat repair places and marinas - they recommend straight gas, to not let gas sit or be unused for more than a month, and that Stabil Marine to be used. They mentioned a few other products that are not commonly available.


I also talked with a local small engine shop, same thing. This place also recommended to run the gas out of the carb, and drain the carb for storage. They told me draining the carb was important, since whatever is left can evaporate and then dry in the passages/jets. Also can sludge/varnish in the bottom of the carb bowl, 1st time you run after storage can clog up jets/passages. The passages are so small in some small engine carbs (small push mowers, pressure washers, etc.), if they clog with varnish, they cannot be cleaned, carb replacement is the fix.


The above is what I have been told after I asked. One spring had to have my motorcycle carbs cleaned at a shop (not cheap), push mower carb cleaned, and a pressure washer carb replaced. An expensive lesson about ethanol gas.
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Old 05-20-2019, 10:47 AM   #23
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A model A gas tank is vented to the atmosphere.
Yes, but the goal is to reduce as much as possible the surface area where the atmosphere contacts either the fuel where moisture absorption can occur, or the surface of the tank where condensation can occur. A full tank does that.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:08 AM   #24
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Yes, but the goal is to reduce as much as possible the surface area where the atmosphere contacts either the fuel where moisture absorption can occur, or the surface of the tank where condensation can occur. A full tank does that.


Have not had this happen to me, but have heard you do not want to fill right to the very top when storing. If it warms up enough, expansion of the gas can cause the tank to leak out through the gas cap onto the cowl.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:24 AM   #25
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The issue is other products have some form of alcohol in them, which actually attracts moisture into gas.
The purpose of alcohol in those products is to bond with any water that is in the tank. The same thing the ethanol in E10 does. It puts the water in suspension which keeps it off the bottom of the tank and allows it to be burned in combustion. They do attract water but almost entirely the water that is already in the tank...especially if the tank is full and the cap is sealed.

Products like HEET are essentially pure Isopropyl alcohol.

"Isopropyl alcohol is a major ingredient in "gas dryer" fuel additives. In significant quantities water is a problem in fuel tanks, as it separates from gasoline and can freeze in the supply lines at low temperatures. Alcohol does not remove water from gasoline—but the alcohol solubilizes water in gasoline. Once soluble, water does not pose the same risk as insoluble water, as it no longer accumulates in the supply lines and freezes, but is consumed with the fuel itself."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol
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Old 05-20-2019, 12:36 PM   #26
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I was at a landscape equipment store yesterday, the owner said, do not leave gas in any equipment, lawnmower, leaf blower etc. for over a month. Should that be the same rule with The Model A, since all gas here has 10% Ethanol? I do use Sta-bil additive, does that help if its over a month in the tank?
2 Cycle engines tend to not do well keeping a gas oil mix fuel stored in them over time. It tends to gum up and I would venture the equipment store kind of had that in mind in particular. 2 cycle engines that I have, I tend to run dry at the end of seasonal use. For any 4 cycle engine that is seasonal or not used a lot Sta-bil and Seafoam are the ones I use!
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Old 05-20-2019, 12:59 PM   #27
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The purpose of alcohol in those products is to bond with any water that is in the tank. The same thing the ethanol in E10 does. It puts the water in suspension which keeps it off the bottom of the tank and allows it to be burned in combustion. They do attract water but almost entirely the water that is already in the tank...especially if the tank is full and the cap is sealed.

Products like HEET are essentially pure Isopropyl alcohol.

"Isopropyl alcohol is a major ingredient in "gas dryer" fuel additives. In significant quantities water is a problem in fuel tanks, as it separates from gasoline and can freeze in the supply lines at low temperatures. Alcohol does not remove water from gasoline—but the alcohol solubilizes water in gasoline. Once soluble, water does not pose the same risk as insoluble water, as it no longer accumulates in the supply lines and freezes, but is consumed with the fuel itself."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol

Correct me if I misunderstand, but there is a secondary issue of the ethanol itself separating out of the gas over time. It's called phase separation. So E10 looses its ability to suspend the water in the gas, and the water and ethanol lies at the bottom of the tank.
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Old 05-20-2019, 02:15 PM   #28
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Correct me if I misunderstand, but there is a secondary issue of the ethanol itself separating out of the gas over time. It's called phase separation. So E10 looses its ability to suspend the water in the gas, and the water and ethanol lies at the bottom of the tank.
You are correct from what I hear and read. I think the paradox is that if there is condensation and you run straight gasoline you will have water at the bottom of the tank immediately. If you run E10 at least you have a chance of the ethanol absorbing the condensation and holding it in suspension before there is enough water in the fuel that it gets to the point of phase separation.

"E10 can hold approximately 0.5% water at 60°F (.64 ounces in a gallon, or 12 ounces of water in a 20-gallon gas tank)," before phase separation takes place. With gas without ethanol (or HEET) you will have any water that gets in the fuel at the bottom of the gas tank right from the get go.

I'm no fan of E10, but I've learned to live with it. Full tank (E10) over the winter with Stabil in it (even though I do drive my collector cars some in the winter). Small engines left with no fuel in the tank or carbs.

The best choice is to keep driving our collector cars no matter what fuel you use. This is pretty tough in some areas, however.
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Old 05-20-2019, 02:29 PM   #29
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Ok, thanks for the details. For me living in Wisconsin, I refuse to drive during road Salt season. My truck has some rust on it, do not want salt get into it.


I usually drain a few gallons in the spring before starting or moving my A, and hope to drain any water, except what can not be drained unless the shutoff is removed. Then immediately put in some Seafoam in hopes any other water gets mixed up. We all have our methods.


I do the same as you on small engines, 2 cycles I additional throw in some isopropanol and swish it around and drain it, fears of left over 2 cycle oil in the tank collecting on the bottom of the tank and clogging things up in the spring.
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Old 05-20-2019, 08:14 PM   #30
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I put Sta-bil in the tanks of the toys if I remember. A snow blower sat for two years with old gas and started on the first pull - I don’t remember if it had Sta-bil or not.
I know that I didn’t use it in the T or A last fall and they both stared without any problem.
My generator sat for Over a year and started without an issue last weekend.
I think that most of the issues that people report are not due to gas.
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Old 05-20-2019, 08:33 PM   #31
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My Post 22, last paragraph was definitely gasohol related, or so 3 different shops that work on those 3 issues told me. So that is why I am a believer of ethanol issues.
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:41 PM   #32
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I put Sta-bil in the tanks of the toys if I remember. A snow blower sat for two years with old gas and started on the first pull - I don’t remember if it had Sta-bil or not.
I know that I didn’t use it in the T or A last fall and they both stared without any problem.
My generator sat for Over a year and started without an issue last weekend.
I think that most of the issues that people report are not due to gas.
Treating engines that way, it will likely soon be you reporting the issues! Some people seem to get by, I'm not so lucky. I only use it in vehicles being driven often.
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