transmission question

[samsonized]

i have a 35 cabriolet and i am updating the trans and rearend. the question is do i do an s10 and convert rear end to open drive or keep the current 39 trans and put in a mitchell overdrive just looking for opinions or anyone who might have been faced with the same dilemma.

[JSeery]

A lot is going to depend on how original the car is now and how original you are wanting to keep it.

[samsonized]

either change would be changable for the next owner if you wanted to change it back the mitchell setup just replaces the torque tube and the t5 conversion does not permanently change anything

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by samsonized

either change would be changable for the next owner if you wanted to change it back the mitchell setup just replaces the torque tube and the t5 conversion does not permanently change anything

T5 conversion usually requires some cutting & removing pieces of center of X member.

What are your reasons for updating your transmission and/or the rear?

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by samsonized

i have a 35 cabriolet and i am updating the trans and rearend. the question is do i do an s10 and convert rear end to open drive or keep the current 39 trans and put in a mitchell overdrive just looking for opinions or anyone who might have been faced with the same dilemma.

Samson.....Good questions, and several ways to go about it. But you mention the possibility of TWO different, determining parameters....original rear end, OR replacement rear end. First, let me say that I LIKE T5s. You will love the shift qualities of a GOOD T5. Plus, a T5 gives you FOUR forward gear ratios (keeping the RPMs up tightly in the power band), PLUS Overdrive. An original Ford 3-speed only gives you (of course) THREE forward gear ratios, PLUS an Overdrive with the "XPENSIVE" Mitchell units. And that old Ford 3-speed won't shift anywhere near as nicely as a T5....FACT!

The T5 will necessitate removal of that center crossmember "box" (picture below), and the addition of a "Chassis Engineering"-type, bolt-in rear trans mount kit, which also incorporates the two anchor points for the two, slightly-split wishbone arms. It's a reasonably-affordable, easy to install kit in use on a bazillion old Fords. The "center" crossmember box which must be removed, below!



When you say you want to use an "S-10" T5, most folks don't realize the entire meaning of that. The basic T5 design is very adaptable to different configurations to accommodate use in over thirty different auto/truck models that it was originally used in world-wide. ALL T5 MAIN gearboxes are 9-1/4" front to rear. ANY T5 gear set will adapt into ANY T5 main gearbox. ANY tail shaft HOUSING will bolt onto any main gearbox case. The T5 transmissions that came in S-10 pick-ups had a shifter location as far forward as possible on the S-10 tail shaft housing. This allows the shifter location inside an old Ford to be closer to the ORIGINAL Ford shifter location in the floor than say if you used a stock T5 out of a Camaro, or Mustang. The shifter location on those T5s is roughly 10" farther BACK than the shifter on an S-10 T5. BUT......the individual gear ratios inside that stock S-10 transmission's gearbox SUCK! And that gear set is not able to handle near the torque of the gear set in a Camaro V8 T5. Plus, the gear ratio of the Camaro V8 gears is PERFECTION! First gear is 2.95:1, whereas the old Ford 1st gear is usually 2.82....very close! That S-10 T5 will have a 4.03 1st gear in it....an almost useless "granny" gear.

So ideally, what ya want to do is find yourself an '83-'87 Camaro V8 "Non-World-Class (NWC) T5 with the 2.95 1st gear ratio gear set (still fairly common at swap meets). Find yourself an "S-10" NWC-type tail shaft housing along with the S-10 shift rod/lid, and swap them onto the Camaro main case. That way, you can easily adapt to your old Ford mechanical speedometer. That combo will use any 27-spline Chevy yoke going to your drive shaft. The S-10 housing and shift lid with short shift rod in picture below. It will all bolt together. And such a sweet combination when compared with the old Ford 3-speed and Mitchell OD unit!




The Complete Camaro/S-10 Tail Housing Combination



There is one more avenue to consider....a Camaro-type T5 main case and gears with an '83-'87 "Jeep CJ" 4X4 T5 'shorty' tail shaft housing and main shaft adapted to the Ford torque tube. In fact, a friend and I did the one seen below on his '35 Ford pick-up (same chassis as your cabriolet). It's rather involved, but shows what can be done with all Borg-Warner factory parts to assemble a very short T5. You can read about our complete project by clicking on the link below. And if I can answer any more questions for you, I'm game! DD

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...T5+TORQUE+TUBE











........

[deuce lover]

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Another option is a T170 ,4th gear is overdrive.It already has the shifter in a good location.

[samsonized]

i did not realize you had to cut the floor and the frame.

[samsonized]

i want to be able to cruise at 65-70 with lower engine rpm

[deuce lover]

Originally Posted by samsonized

i did not realize you had to cut the floor and the frame.

I have done it and yes you have to remove the center saddle and then split the wishbone.Its a tight fit.You barely have room to fill or ad fluid.I did not cut the floor but had to relocate the shifter hole on the cover plate.

[Ol' Ron]

I think it depends on how much you want to pay for the convience of an Over drive. How much of the work can you do yourself,
Thetorque tube unit is very reliable and works just fine as an OD. Initial cost is abit high, but any other conversion isn't cheap either.
I like the T-5 and a spicer 35 rear this upgrades the drivetrain and improves the ride quality. It also offers Posi
This project will be a personal preference one.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by samsonized

i have a 35 cabriolet and i am updating the trans and rearend. the question is do i do an s10 and convert rear end to open drive or keep the current 39 trans and put in a mitchell overdrive just looking for opinions or anyone who might have been faced with the same dilemma.

Samsonized, check out this previously posted thread by someone who wanted to update their 35/36 Ford for similar reasons, and note the posts I made regarding changes I made on my 35 fordor sedan for the same reasons you want to make changes.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=280032

[samsonized]

has one one used a mitchell conversion

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by samsonized

has one one used a mitchell conversion

There are a number of threads on here on OD conversions.

[19Fordy]

V8: Rather than removing the X Member center piece, why not cut it out with the laser even with the edges of the top and bottom frame flange. This would leave the riveted rails of the removed X member in place providing a little more rigidity. Grind edges smooth.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

V8: Rather than removing the X Member center piece, why not cut it out with the laser even with the edges of the top and bottom frame flange. This would leave the riveted rails of the removed X member in place providing a little more rigidity. Grind edges smooth.

In most cases you have to add a plate(s) back in and use the rivet holes for the bolts. I think it really needs to come out, much easier way to go.

[deuce lover]

Besides changing the R&P, the Mitchell is most likely the least amount of modification and work if you want to spend the money($3450).A fellow here bought a '35 coupe with a Mitchell OD conversion and is happy with it.He has 2 floor shift levers to deal with.

[1931 flamingo]

The Mitchell should be a bolt in, no mods needed and can be had with either a separate shift lever or a cable to actuate. JMO Probably an afternoon of work vs major mods.
Paul in CT

[JM 35 Sedan]

What's the cost of a Mitchell OD today? I have no interest....just asking for a friend.

[Seth Swoboda]

Why not rebuild the transmission with the 29/15 gear combo and go with a 3:54 rear end ratio. I have that in heavier sedans and I can cruise all day at 65 mph with ease. Plus it's a heck of a lot cheaper and less work. Both of which I like.

[deuce lover]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

What's the cost of a Mitchell OD today? I have no interest....just asking for a friend.

Macs has them listed for $3445.99 and that is dropped shipped from the mfg.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by deuce lover

Macs has them listed for $3445.99 and that is dropped shipped from the mfg.

Wow, I priced them a little over 10 years ago and I believe they were selling a ~ &1400.00 -1500.00.
I'm very happy with '46-'48 gears, 29 tooth cluster/15 tooth input gear in transmission, and 3.54:1 gears in the rear. I can cruise all day long @ 65 mph

[deuce lover]

John,When I checked a little over a yr ago they were $2200. Inflation.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

V8: Rather than removing the X Member center piece, why not cut it out with the laser even with the edges of the top and bottom frame flange. This would leave the riveted rails of the removed X member in place providing a little more rigidity. Grind edges smooth.

Like JSeery said, you really need to remove the center section. The rear tail shaft housing is bulbous enough that it gets into the area where the cup for the wishbone ball is located. The good kits employ a lower plate like pictured below that acts to capture the split wishbone ends, as well as support the trans mount. It bolts-in utilizing original rivet holes. A secondary, crescent-shaped plate can also be bolted-in across the top of the transmission, connecting the tops of the X-members if desired. Some kits utilize it....some don't! DD



The upper crescent-shaped piece I speak of looks similar to the upper bracket in this picture with six mounting holes.















........

[deuce lover]

Don't forget that to correctly put the bungs in the wishbone for the rod ends the front end should be removed ,cut yoke off and weld them in.I did mine under the car on my back- a challenge.

[Bored&Stroked]

Question for guys who've used a Mitchell: Due to the size of it (installed in the torque tube), would he have to modify the floor pans in the area where the OD is added?

My foggy, Saturday morning, non-coffee infused brain seems to remind me that there can be issues in certain years of cars - due to the transmission tunnel in the floor pan not having enough clearance for the OD.

Who knows the scoop on this???

[1931 flamingo]

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I think the need to "modify" the floor pan depends on how much weight is carried in the back seat or if vehicle lowered. I may also be wrong.
Paul in CT

[Automotive Stud]

I put a Mitchell in my '47 about fifteen years ago. Unloaded it was fine, but if I had a few passengers it would bottom out, so I wound up modifying the floor under the back seat. I think in a '35 you would probably have to cut the floor also.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

There can be issues in certain years of cars - due to the transmission tunnel in the floor pan not having enough clearance for the OD.

Who knows the scoop on this???

There's no two ways about it....it's a sizeable rig. I've always questioned that much weight, unsupported, hanging right in the middle of that long torque tube assembly. DD

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

There's no two ways about it....it's a sizeable rig. I've always questioned that much weight, unsupported, hanging right in the middle of that long torque tube assembly. DD

Thanks! There would surely be issues in cars like a 34 Ford, the floorpans would have to be modified.

Too bad the thing is so dang big, square and ugly (just saying). I bet somebody could take a modern set of parts (like out of a Tremec 5 speed) and create a much better product. BUT - you'd never sell enough of them to be worth the design/production investment.

[KGS]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Thanks! There would surely be issues in cars like a 34 Ford, the floorpans would have to be modified.

Too bad the thing is so dang big, square and ugly (just saying). I bet somebody could take a modern set of parts (like out of a Tremec 5 speed) and create a much better product. BUT - you'd never sell enough of them to be worth the design/production investment.

Why not consider a Volvo overdrive unit? It's smaller than the Mitchell and just as strong. I've only seen one in a '39 and it didn't require modification of the floor.
Check out this thread started by Steve Kennedy.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...olvo+overdrive

Ken

[V8COOPMAN]

.

Here are pictures of Automotive Stud's installation of the Mitchell 10 years ago in his '47. He said the unit cleared the floor.....until you hit a bump! DD

[19Fordy]

v8: The quality and pertinence of the photos you post are ALWAYS excellent. Always enjoy seeing them on any topic discussed.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

v8: The quality and pertinence of the photos you post are ALWAYS excellent. Always enjoy seeing them on any topic discussed.

You're gonna make me blush! But, thank you Man! DD

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

You're gonna make me blush! But, thank you Man! DD

Now don't be blushing V8Coopster . . . it may not be good or your image! LOL

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by samsonized

i did not realize you had to cut the floor and the frame.

Just a Wild-Assed-Guess (WAG), but you MIGHT be able to get by with severely trimming that center "box" on frame to get that T5 (with "S-10" tail) in there. Below is a picture of the stock trans (Thanks Kube)and it's proximity to the BOX between "X"-rails, while keeping in mind that the T5 with the S-10 rear tail housing is (I believe ) 25-1/2" long....front of case to rear of tail housing. DD

[koates]

Originally Posted by samsonized

i want to be able to cruise at 65-70 with lower engine rpm

If you want to cruise at those speeds then the brakes may have to receive some attention if they have not already been done. I have been involved with the fit up of Mitchell overdrives on an original 36 Ford sedan and a 36 Ford coupe and both cars required the rear of the trans tunnel to be cut and an enlarged section to be welded in there. Mitchell overdrives have two different ways to operate them, a flex cable set up or a rod and lever shifter set up. The cable is easier to fit but the pull knob and extension in the cabin is a bit awkward looking. The lever shifter and rod is a neat set up but takes a bit more engineering to fit it. Nothing is easy. Regards, Kevin.

[Tinker]

I run a Mitchell in my truck. No issue of course. Used the lever. It looks great on the floor. Took me a day to do it. Would consider one with my 36 coupe. Floors good now, so that might be my only obstacle. A super great unit. Love it

[Tinker]

Coop weren't you working on a f150 torque tube trans? I could be wrong.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Coop weren't you working on a f150 torque tube trans? I could be wrong.

Nope...We created this short T5 using a Jeep CJ main shaft and 4X4 tail shaft housing to couple-up with a torque tube....ALL stock Borg-Warner transmission parts, with a couple of home-made aluminum adapter rings and a specialty, made-up spline adapter. Seen here in Heard's '35 pick-up. The COMPLETE T5 itself is only 15-1/4" long. DD

[V8COOPMAN]

Oopsie!

[samsonized]

i have a mitchell setup in my model a with a floor shift it is truelly a dream to drive. it is a true gear splitter so you actually have 6 speeds forward

[gwmartin55]

I have used the Mitchell since 2010. Great Race 4 times, no problem, best update ever.

[gwmartin55]

10 years on my Mitchell, never any issue. 38 Ford Coupe used in Great Race.

[aussie merc]

well what about a Columbia unit bolts right in is period correct and if built correctly are highly reliable

[Swarm]

I second the columbia, get it bulletproofed. I never drove a car with a mitchell so I cant speak on it

[Planojc]

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With a Mitchell you will probably still have a floor pan clearance issue, especially if you have a rumble seat.

[Ol' Ron]

I never realized it cost so much to dosome of this work, and how high the prices are. I bought my T 170 style trans from a junkyard in NH for $300 welded some ears on a steek 8BA bell housing bore the register for the trans. Used the stock clutch linkage abd aToyoya hydraulic clutch. Paid 150 for the Jeep GC Spicer 44 rear with posi. and rims. However it did cost $140 to get the driveshaft made. Less than a grand and it was on the road. I realize most guys dont have a shop like this, but if a few guys can get together and do each others projects they could come up with some neet stuff. I like that 40 coupe as well but 25K??. Maybe I'll sell my truck. can't drive it anyway.
Gramps

[Pete]

V8COOPMAN quote: "And that old Ford 3-speed won't shift anywhere near as nicely as a T5....FACT!"

In stock form, neither shifter is much good but with a few mods that don't show, both can be made to shift as fast as a Lenco.

On another note, most people never think about what the addition of a driveline overdrive (Mitchell/Ryan/Volvo) or a rear end overdrive (Columbia) does to the handling of the car.
The manufacturers never tell you that different springs or shocks should be used to retain stock handling and performance. Granted most people that install these units never drive fast enough to realize that handling has been compromised but adding over 100 lb of unsprung weight to a car that already has too much, is not good.
A transmission overdrive will outperform other types in all cases.