Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-30-2020, 06:15 PM   #1
Licensed to kill
Senior Member
 
Licensed to kill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 915
Default Houston....We have a problem

I bought the top and side wood kits for my 31 Deluxe delivery but made the bottom wood since it seemed pretty simple. Put all the wood together, everything went together quite well until I went to start fitting the quarter panels and they don't fit. When I clamp the back of the panel to the door posts at the back, the front of the panel is 1" short of fitting to the front of the front door posts. In other words, the wood frame appears to be 1" too long. However, the floor that I made is exactly the same length of as the original and the brackets front and back can not be adjusted for the discrepancy. As you can see in the first pic, the panel fits OK at the back door post, second pic shows that the holes for the carriage bolts do NOT line up with the wood brace about half way down the length suggesting that the issue is between that brace and the rear door posts, the third pic shows that the floor is exactly the same length as the original and the last pic shows how short I am from the panel fitting the front of the front door post. I am at a loss as to what the cause is and therefore have no clue how to fix it. Suggestions??. I can provide any pics that may help.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Resized_20201030_131049.jpg (39.8 KB, 132 views)
File Type: jpg Resized_20201030_131102.jpg (33.3 KB, 122 views)
File Type: jpg Resized_20201030_131109.jpg (34.0 KB, 124 views)
File Type: jpg Resized_20201030_131149.jpg (43.2 KB, 120 views)
Licensed to kill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 07:26 AM   #2
Oldbluoval
Senior Member
 
Oldbluoval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Signal Mtn, TN (SE TN)
Posts: 905
Default Re: Houston....We have a problem

When putting the doors on, how is the gap? You are working on its chassis frame with body bolts thru wood to frame?
I’ve built one of those years ago.
I’d put the doors on and the rear “Skelton” and see where things go from there
Seems if the sills are correct the remainder should fall in line
Your original sills were “original” and not Messed with.
Oldbluoval is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-31-2020, 09:34 AM   #3
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 12,191
Default Re: Houston....We have a problem

About all I can say is that the side or vertical components should fit with the vertical body panel when placed in proper location. If they don't fit well with the body then the wood vertical members would be suspect or at least some part of them. The horizontal members that tie them together are part of the fit too.

If the vertical and interconnecting horizontal members do fit well with the large rear body panels then the sill and floor members could be suspect. I tend to trust original members like you but it has been a long time since the original manufacture. It's hard to verify if they are original or not at this stage of the game.

Most wood kits require fit and finish adjustments but they are generally in the ball park for fit with minor adjustments to get it all where it has to be to work. A person always wonders whether a member is a little bit long or short. A little bit long can be managed but a little bit short, not so much. Those wood kits ain't cheap but a person has to verify where the ill fitment exists before going back to the fabricator of the wood products. Some may still be correct while others may not. You definitely have a puzzle there. I just hope there are a few other experienced folks that can help you more with this.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 09:48 AM   #4
Licensed to kill
Senior Member
 
Licensed to kill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 915
Default Re: Houston....We have a problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbluoval View Post
When putting the doors on, how is the gap? You are working on its chassis frame with body bolts thru wood to frame?
The wood was put together on the chassis with all of the body to frame bolts in place. I moved the body to another frame for final fitting of the sheet metal so I can work on it without the wheels in the way and i can do some finishing work on the chassis at the same time.

Quote:
I’ve built one of those years ago.
I’d put the doors on and the rear “Skelton” and see where things go from there
Seems if the sills are correct the remainder should fall in line
Your original sills were “original” and not Messed with.
A wood worker friend and I made the sills. We copied the originals exactly and everything lined up perfect when assembling the wood structure. I also used a series of photos that Brent Terry had online of the assembly of a DD as my tutorial on how to put it all together. I had no issues assembling it. Everything went together as it should.....until I went to put the sheet metal on it. I can hang a door on it to see if the door post is in the right place but it appears the the issue is in the rear half of the skeleton, not the front half.....I think.
Licensed to kill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 10:00 AM   #5
Licensed to kill
Senior Member
 
Licensed to kill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 915
Default Re: Houston....We have a problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
About all I can say is that the side or vertical components should fit with the vertical body panel when placed in proper location. If they don't fit well with the body then the wood vertical members would be suspect or at least some part of them. The horizontal members that tie them together are part of the fit too.
If the vertical and interconnecting horizontal members do fit well with the large rear body panels then the sill and floor members could be suspect. I tend to trust original members like you but it has been a long time since the original manufacture. It's hard to verify if they are original or not at this stage of the game.
Agreed. However, this is what vexes me so. All of the vertical and horizontal members fit as they should and the floor is exactly the same length as the original. The brackets that the front door posts and the rear door posts are anchored to can only really go in one place. The problem pretty much HAS to be that I did something wrong when making the bottom wood/floor but I can't for the life of me see what that could be. The whole rear section of the skeleton need to come forward an inch but there is no way to do that that I can see without changing.shortening the floor and I know for a fact that the floor is the correct length now as shown in the picture with a piece of the original floor laying on the new one.

Quote:
Most wood kits require fit and finish adjustments but they are generally in the ball park for fit with minor adjustments to get it all where it has to be to work. A person always wonders whether a member is a little bit long or short. A little bit long can be managed but a little bit short, not so much. Those wood kits ain't cheap but a person has to verify where the ill fitment exists before going back to the fabricator of the wood products. Some may still be correct while others may not. You definitely have a puzzle there. I just hope there are a few other experienced folks that can help you more with this.
I have no plans on going back to the wood manufacturer. I seriously doubt that the problem lies with them. Since I used the pictorial by Brent Terry, I know he did one of these and am hoping he will see this and be able to point me to my problem. I can shorten the whole back end to make it fit but that should NOT be necessary.
Licensed to kill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 10:04 AM   #6
Jack Shaft
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 929
Default Re: Houston....We have a problem

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Measure twice cut once.Trusting patterns and fitting from existing structure still requires attention to dimension..you missed by an inch? wow.Didnt you use the quarter as a reference?


Oh..your off by an inch...it is necessary
Jack Shaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 10:22 AM   #7
1930artdeco
Senior Member
 
1930artdeco's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 2,820
Default Re: Houston....We have a problem

Here is my two cents worth-and that is all this is worth. I assume that you have matched up the old wood to the new physically next to each other. Just to verify dimensions and hole placement, But the floor piece you have in next to the original looks to be off in hole placement. Maybe it is just the way the picture is shot. Also, the middle vertical piece looks to be about three inches to short. Again maybe the it is in the picture.


Mike
__________________
1930 TownSedan (Briggs)
Still learning after all these years....
1930artdeco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 11:10 AM   #8
Licensed to kill
Senior Member
 
Licensed to kill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 915
Default Re: Houston....We have a problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1930artdeco View Post
Here is my two cents worth-and that is all this is worth. I assume that you have matched up the old wood to the new physically next to each other. Just to verify dimensions and hole placement, But the floor piece you have in next to the original looks to be off in hole placement. Maybe it is just the way the picture is shot. Also, the middle vertical piece looks to be about three inches to short. Again maybe the it is in the picture.


Mike
The old floor piece is just there for length comparison. I would have originally been the outside board. The middle vertical board does not go all the way to the floor. Here is a picture I took of the mouse nest that was behind the interior panel. You can see that the centre vertical wood does not go all the away to the floor. I believe that the purpose of this piece was simply an attachment point for the interior panel and not a structural piece.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0154.jpg (51.5 KB, 49 views)
Licensed to kill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 09:33 AM   #9
Licensed to kill
Senior Member
 
Licensed to kill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 915
Default Re: Houston....We have a problem

Moving the back end of the skeleton forward an inch would be simple enough. All I would have to do is knock an inch off of the upper side rail (where the 2 screws are), then shorten the sill by an inch and move the car door post and corner post ahead an inch and the quarter panel should fit. HOWEVER, as rotorwrench stated, these wood kits should only require minor fit adjustments and I just can't see it needing to be shortened by a whole inch. Also, if I was to do this, I will have to shorten the floor by an inch and I KNOW that the floor is exactly the same length as the original now so shortening it an inch can't be correct. I may have to put the body back on the chassis, mount the running board and check the location of the rear fender relative to the quarter panel????. Everything suggests that the wood is correct except that it isn't.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Resized_20201031_164456.jpg (44.7 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg Resized_20201031_164449.jpg (38.1 KB, 29 views)
Licensed to kill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 09:38 AM   #10
Licensed to kill
Senior Member
 
Licensed to kill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 915
Default Re: Houston....We have a problem

When building the bottom wood I took all of my measurements from the original and checked those measurements many times before committing them to wood.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0305.jpg (68.5 KB, 40 views)
Licensed to kill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 09:55 AM   #11
Jack Shaft
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 929
Default Re: Houston....We have a problem

Part of my trade is steel fabrication involved with equipment repair.Structural fabrication in wood or steel requires abstract thinking and rigid attention to detail. Abstract thought means you consider every possible outcome of the task,will the structure lose its integrity when disassembled?the abstract thought process also requires visualization of the tasks required to perform the repair, given the complexity of the task,even after 40 years fabrication this process can still keep me up at night.
Once the process is hammer out in the abstract I take precise measurements of all structure prior to disassembly.One of the keys to avoid this outcome is to have a point of reference,I call it a 'god',a constant to work from.In this case it would be the quarter panel,the structure would fit the quarter correctly,then fasten to the deck.

Avoid reverse analyzing a failure,or attempting to fix an issue by losing structural rigidity,I would disassemble,fit to the quarter and fab a new piece once I found the issue.
Jack Shaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 01:41 PM   #12
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 12,191
Default Re: Houston....We have a problem

That old floor certainly still has a lot of wood left on it. All of the frame mount holes in the sills are there enough to confirm it's fit. I think I would trust that for accuracy. The other thing I would want to confirm is whether the front doors would fit the space when the body sides are in place. The cowl only mounts one way so that may confirm distance from the cowl A pillar to the rear of the body. I always use the frame to fit things up after I've made sure it's straight and square. I can only assume that your body is on the frame from the photos.

I don't know how much was left of the original sidewall wood members but they would have helped some. I wouldn't be surprised about wood kit members being long. They would let the installer do the fit up of those and there could be some variation but I agree that it likely wouldn't be a whole inch but nothing surprises me much anymore. It looks like the rear of the sills had some rot but I can't tell how much. If there are signs left of placement locations then it would still have to be guesstimated a bit.

The drop floor bodys were similar but most of the difference was in the back end there. It makes me wonder if some of the wood was the same or not between the two.

I don't know if this will help or not: http://classiccardb.com/ford/382106-...t-engine-.html

Last edited by rotorwrench; 11-01-2020 at 03:11 PM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:10 AM.