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Old 05-21-2019, 08:35 AM   #61
Tim Ayers
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Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

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Combustion chamber shape?? Might as well get this one started. Back in the 80's when I was doing all this experimenting, I made up a wooden cylinder head and carved in a bunch of chambers after measuring most stock and aftermarket chambers. I was looking for the best flow compared to CR. I do have some pics of this somewhere. The best one was a piston with a 7 degree top and the head with an 8 deg angle. This pop up piston forced the AF into the valve area. It also allow for a very hi CR with excellent flow. I made up a piston shape with Bondo and sent it to EGGE and asked them if they could make a piston for me with enough material on it for me to machine the top. The cost was 600 dollars, which was far beyond my means.
Fast forward to 2003 and I was at Bivlle with JWL and the flathead powered Hudson. I was shocked the pistons in it. Just like the ones I had sent to EGGE and the Heads were made by Navarro. Interesting, but I'm still not sure this is the right shape. But, I still think the spark plug should be in the center of the transfer area . This creats a shorted flame front and allows for a power tip plug. Be interested in any comments, food for thought.

This is interesting for around that same time (2003) Navarro introduced his hi flow head. It is a pop up, slightly angled piston design. At the time, the only pistons being made for this set up were from Arias @ $1,000 a set and the heads were a $100 premium over the $675 price for a "nostalgic" set.

I balked at the price for the set up. From what I understand, Ross now is also making pistons for this set up and the price is around their normal custom piston price of $700.

From what I gather, this set up is a great compromise between flow and compression.
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:09 AM   #62
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Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

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I just watched an older vid from PowerNation TV where they did up a flathead. It was bored and stroked to 304 cu in, with 3/4 race cam, triple carbs, ported with larger Chevy valves, etc. Made a whopping 156 Hp at the crank. Torque was a little more impressive at 265 lb-ft.

https://www.powernationtv.com/episod...tty-3-deuce-v8
Funny how this post took on a life of it's own and went way off target (quality of certain heads)??

Anyway, to reply strictly to the quote above here, these numbers, 155 HP/265 TQ are indicative of what we almost always find on our basic 292" build, 3.312" x 4.250", Ross pistons/metric rings, Isky "8800", and single small 4 brl carb! Tri-power's see just a bit more!

There is NO porting, NO oversize valves, and NO hidden little "secrets", just some old-fashioned type excellent machine work! This is basically the identical build to my friend Ron's ride in my signature below here! Going above 40,000 trouble-free miles now coming up on 9 years!


Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Haven't heard back from Joe yet with any input from H&H, expecting to hear soon though. On an added note, knowing what we've learned through the years here about the power available from Turbo's this is what I'd be researching/testing if I were "chasing" Flathead HP. The sole issue with blowers is they consume some HP to run themselves. Not so with turbo's, have never done one though as far as I know. Sometimes after we do all the machining for some customers they walk out with their pieces and I don't hear anymore! There may have been a Turbo or two installed, just not aware.
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:16 AM   #63
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Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

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Funny how this post took on a life of it's own and went way off target (quality of certain heads)??

Anyway, to reply strictly to the quote above here, these numbers, 155 HP/265 TQ are indicative of what we almost always find on our basic 292" build, 3.312" x 4.250", Ross pistons/metric rings, Isky "8800", and single small 4 brl carb! Tri-power's see just a bit more!

There is NO porting, NO oversize valves, and NO hidden little "secrets", just some old-fashioned type excellent machine work! This is basically the identical build to my friend Ron's ride in my signature below here! Going above 40,000 trouble-free miles now coming up on 9 years!


Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Haven't heard back from Joe yet with any input from H&H, expecting to hear soon though. On an added note, knowing what we've learned through the years here about the power available from Turbo's this is what I'd be researching/testing if I were "chasing" Flathead HP. The sole issue with blowers is they consume some HP to run themselves. Not so with turbo's, have never done one though as far as I know. Sometimes after we do all the machining for some customers they walk out with their pieces and I don't hear anymore! There may have been a Turbo or two installed, just not aware.
Gary:

Well, the turbo secret is out with junk yard LS motors getting 800+ or more h.p. with either one massive turbo or dual units.

I think what is holding back most guys from going the turbo route is looks on a flathead powered hot rod.

If I had a lead sled, I would serious consider it since you can hide the units in the engine bay.

Might look a little out of place on an old roadster with two spools hanging over the frame rails. LOL!
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:38 PM   #64
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Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

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Funny how this post took on a life of it's own and went way off target (quality of certain heads)??

Anyway, to reply strictly to the quote above here, these numbers, 155 HP/265 TQ are indicative of what we almost always find on our basic 292" build, 3.312" x 4.250", Ross pistons/metric rings, Isky "8800", and single small 4 brl carb! Tri-power's see just a bit more!

There is NO porting, NO oversize valves, and NO hidden little "secrets", just some old-fashioned type excellent machine work! This is basically the identical build to my friend Ron's ride in my signature below here! Going above 40,000 trouble-free miles now coming up on 9 years!


Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Haven't heard back from Joe yet with any input from H&H, expecting to hear soon though. On an added note, knowing what we've learned through the years here about the power available from Turbo's this is what I'd be researching/testing if I were "chasing" Flathead HP. The sole issue with blowers is they consume some HP to run themselves. Not so with turbo's, have never done one though as far as I know. Sometimes after we do all the machining for some customers they walk out with their pieces and I don't hear anymore! There may have been a Turbo or two installed, just not aware.

gary, my concern with turbocharging a flathead is the heat build up in the exhaust between the valve and the turbo. in a flathead all the heat is kept in the block....
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:13 PM   #65
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Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

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Gary:

Might look a little out of place on an old roadster with two spools hanging over the frame rails. LOL!
Hi Tim, I agree 100% about the "look", but if you're looking for all-out power Turbo is (most likely) the way to go? (In my neighborhood here we have 4-bangers making over 800, some even at the tires, google Vinny 10 racing)!)

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gary, my concern with turbocharging a flathead is the heat build up in the exhaust between the valve and the turbo. in a flathead all the heat is kept in the block....
Hi kev, can't have your cake and eat it too, if you want "ultimate" HP you'll have to deal with the heat!

If I was going to look to set any legitimate records today with the Flathead ( I'm not, believe me) I would most likely run it "Turboed", injected, and possibly on E-85, if not, on race fuel for sure! Definitely would be walking in "blind" though on a build like this. I would assume it would have to be a "concreted" block, at least partially anyway!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. While I have some peoples attention here I just got a phone call from a good friend and was told to expect to see a 25% increase in ALL off-shore cranks. After he hung up I made my own call to one of the larger mfr's and confirmed his info, it IS correct. This will affect the Flathead cranks and, I suppose, all the off-shore conn rods also! If you're contemplating a stroker in the near future you may want to pick up the crank/rods now and "stash" them??
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:26 PM   #66
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Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

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Hi Gary:

E-85 is the ticket with turbo charging for it has a cooling effect due to the corn alcohol.

From what I gather, running E-85 is able to be done with fooling with the ECU programming on a LS motor.

Last edited by Tim Ayers; 05-21-2019 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:29 PM   #67
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Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

P.S. While I have some peoples attention here I just got a phone call from a good friend and was told to expect to see a 25% increase in ALL off-shore cranks. After he hung up I made my own call to one of the larger mfr's and confirmed his info, it IS correct. This will affect the Flathead cranks and, I suppose, all the off-shore conn rods also! If you're contemplating a stroker in the near future you may want to pick up the crank/rods now and "stash" them??[/QUOTE]

More than likely most everything for the old cars will see this 25% increase due to tariffs on Chinese products. Looks like it will be some time before all this is sorted out.
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:29 PM   #68
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Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

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Hi Tim, I agree 100% about the "look", but if you're looking for all-out power Turbo is (most likely) the way to go? (In my neighborhood here we have 4-bangers making over 800, some even at the tires, google Vinny 10 racing)!)



Hi kev, can't have your cake and eat it too, if you want "ultimate" HP you'll have to deal with the heat!

If I was going to look to set any legitimate records today with the Flathead ( I'm not, believe me) I would most likely run it "Turboed", injected, and possibly on E-85, if not, on race fuel for sure! Definitely would be walking in "blind" though on a build like this. I would assume it would have to be a "concreted" block, at least partially anyway!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. While I have some peoples attention here I just got a phone call from a good friend and was told to expect to see a 25% increase in ALL off-shore cranks. After he hung up I made my own call to one of the larger mfr's and confirmed his info, it IS correct. This will affect the Flathead cranks and, I suppose, all the off-shore conn rods also! If you're contemplating a stroker in the near future you may want to pick up the crank/rods now and "stash" them??



I've been tinkering around in my mind on supercharging without losses.... think bonneville records.... need ballast in the nose usually anyway... so lets run some batteries up there and spin the supercharger electrically. they already do it with water pumps... why not the blower too.


shit, now I just let my secret out. i was going to patent and sell it to ronnie roadster for his next record
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:33 PM   #69
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Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

"P.S. While I have some peoples attention here I just got a phone call from a good friend and was told to expect to see a 25% increase in ALL off-shore cranks. After he hung up I made my own call to one of the larger mfr's and confirmed his info, it IS correct. This will affect the Flathead cranks and, I suppose, all the off-shore conn rods also! If you're contemplating a stroker in the near future you may want to pick up the crank/rods now and "stash" them??"

That is ok if you can be satisfied with oats that have been through the horse.
Buy USA. FAR better quality.
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:48 PM   #70
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Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

A friend and I tinkered with electric powered superchargers a while ago. Although it has been done successfully (I read an article about an outfit that does it when I was "tinkering"), the bottom line is that it is extremely difficult to put together a package that provides enough power that is small and light enough to be practical.
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:52 PM   #71
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A friend and I tinkered with electric powered superchargers a while ago. Although it has been done successfully (I read an article about an outfit that does it when I was "tinkering"), the bottom line is that it is extremely difficult to put together a package that provides enough power that is small and light enough to be practical.

yes, this was directed at bonneville only. weight and packaging isn't nearly as important.. well packaging can be but you can design around it. on a flathead you can use up a significant portion of your gains spinning the blower.



there is NOTHING practical about electric supercharging. although I did read the BMW was looking to do this as a way to remove lag. small electric driven turbo on low end.
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Old 05-21-2019, 04:13 PM   #72
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Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

All this talk about electric supercharging reminded me of the guy who put a vacuum cleaner in the back of his rig and ran the discharge hose up to his carburetor. Electric Supercharger. He had to run a small gas powered generator to power the vacuum cleaner as he didn’t have a 12 volt vacuum.
Sorry Gary about wondering off your original thread.
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Old 05-21-2019, 05:05 PM   #73
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With 2900 visitors to this thread, seems like a few people are interested is the BS that makes them go fast. I try to keep the cost down so those big creaks ane nor in my budget. However. for the past 5 years I've had the pleasure to ride behing one of Gares 294 crank assys in a 38 Ford PU we put together. Edekbrock 74cc heads, L-100 cam and 3 stromburgs, from Uncle Max, make a fun ride.
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Old 05-21-2019, 05:11 PM   #74
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Electric supercharger drives now that could work but if were talking top speeds at Bonneville the battery's needed for the long pull might be a bit more weight that will cancel out the possible speed gains. Being heavy trying to accelerate the weight can be a big handicap with most valve in block designs. Now on the thoughts of turbos. The major concern on the Flathead will be the valve seat cracking caused by the excessive heat backing up trying to spool up the turbo and the inlet charge crossing the seat to the cylinder edge. Take it from me its not that simple keeping the block relief area crack free I figured out how to do it this only took me five blocks to figure it out. But now at over 190 and now 200 MPH blown on gas my Ford Flathead blocks do not crack. Try getting a block to survive in that relief area is what you need to figure out first before you go to the next step. Oh and just to let you know my blocks are not filled in any way they all still have the original Ford water jackets as well as the original intake exhaust port layout. Good luck with the ideas hope you all have plenty of blocks to experiment with your going to need them. I look forward to seeing if it can be done with reliability that being no cracks.
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I use the F word a lot no not that word these words Flathead , Focus and Finish.
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Owner , Builder, Driver of the First Ford Flathead bodied roadster to run 200 MPH Record July 13, 2018 LTA timing association 200.921 in one and a half miles burning gasoline.
First ever gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to run 200 MPH at Bonneville Salt Flats setting the record August 7th 2021 at 205.744 MPH
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Old 05-21-2019, 07:28 PM   #75
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Electric supercharger drives now that could work but if were talking top speeds at Bonneville the battery's needed for the long pull might be a bit more weight that will cancel out the possible speed gains. Being heavy trying to accelerate the weight can be a big handicap with most valve in block designs. Now on the thoughts of turbos. The major concern on the Flathead will be the valve seat cracking caused by the excessive heat backing up trying to spool up the turbo and the inlet charge crossing the seat to the cylinder edge. Take it from me its not that simple keeping the block relief area crack free I figured out how to do it this only took me five blocks to figure it out. But now at over 190 and now 200 MPH blown on gas my Ford Flathead blocks do not crack. Try getting a block to survive in that relief area is what you need to figure out first before you go to the next step. Oh and just to let you know my blocks are not filled in any way they all still have the original Ford water jackets as well as the original intake exhaust port layout. Good luck with the ideas hope you all have plenty of blocks to experiment with your going to need them. I look forward to seeing if it can be done with reliability that being no cracks.
Ronnieroadster
Ronnie, I was thinking of robbing a motor from a Prius which gives about 60-70 hp. and batteries from a leaf or another electric car. It would take some serious engineering work but making a controller that maintains a specific level of boost when you are on the gas would be possible. Not sure what psi you run but I think the Prius motor would pull 10psi minimum. Which means you gain that power back at the crank. Nissan leaf motors are 110hp if you run more than 10psi...
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:39 PM   #76
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Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

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Ronnie, I was thinking of robbing a motor from a Prius which gives about 60-70 hp. and batteries from a leaf or another electric car. It would take some serious engineering work but making a controller that maintains a specific level of boost when you are on the gas would be possible. Not sure what psi you run but I think the Prius motor would pull 10psi minimum. Which means you gain that power back at the crank. Nissan leaf motors are 110hp if you run more than 10psi...


Looks like we would need two of the leaf motors since 23 pounds is the highest so far.
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I use the F word a lot no not that word these words Flathead , Focus and Finish.
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Owner , Builder, Driver of the First Ford Flathead bodied roadster to run 200 MPH Record July 13, 2018 LTA timing association 200.921 in one and a half miles burning gasoline.
First ever gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to run 200 MPH at Bonneville Salt Flats setting the record August 7th 2021 at 205.744 MPH
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Old 05-22-2019, 06:10 AM   #77
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Looks like we would need two of the leaf motors since 23 pounds is the highest so far.
Damn that's more than expected... the numbers I have found are 6-7hp per psi. A Chevy volt is 149hp so that would get you to 22.5psi at 7hp per.
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:40 AM   #78
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Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

so while we are on the subject of ultra high performance flatheads....

what are the costs of billet cranks running for them?? do you guys run a girdle with a 2 extra main supports??


one of these days I'm going to make my way down to ron's hobby shop and be a fly on the wall to pick his brain for my next build!!!
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Old 05-22-2019, 03:58 PM   #79
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so while we are on the subject of ultra high performance flatheads....

what are the costs of billet cranks running for them?? do you guys run a girdle with a 2 extra main supports??


one of these days I'm going to make my way down to ron's hobby shop and be a fly on the wall to pick his brain for my next build!!!


The really good cranks which include the five main option cost a bit over 3 grand. Not something for the average guy to run on the street but for all out use its much better than the off shore options. Call ahead for the visit im sure I will be in the middle of one of those not very fuel efficient flatheads i so like to build for others and my self of course. Fuel economy not spoken here.
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I use the F word a lot no not that word these words Flathead , Focus and Finish.
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Owner , Builder, Driver of the First Ford Flathead bodied roadster to run 200 MPH Record July 13, 2018 LTA timing association 200.921 in one and a half miles burning gasoline.
First ever gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to run 200 MPH at Bonneville Salt Flats setting the record August 7th 2021 at 205.744 MPH
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Old 05-22-2019, 06:13 PM   #80
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Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

I’ve seen Ronnie’s five main crank set up. It’s pretty impressive. Since I had to take a blood oath and pinky swear that I would not spill trade secrets, that’s all I can say about it.
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