The Ford Barn

Hoogah · 05-23-2015, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarlG

I use to mist water in my 71 F100 with a 429 engine every month or two. Couldn't believe the amount of crap it blew out the first time I gave it a good dose of water.

When I got my first car (1969 Toyota Corona) in the early 70s, a mechanic mate of mine talked me into trying a water injection kit on it. This involved drilling the intake manifold just under the carby to allow for a jet that sucked water from a reserve tank mounted on the firewall. The claim was that it would increase the compression and provide more power - in my case meaning that my 1500 cc motor would go from mediocre to almost ordinary.

From memory, it used about 1 - 2 litres of water per fuel tank refill.

I never noticed a difference and it didn't stop me burning valves every year or two. Just sayin'!

I think it was a fad that sold some junk for a couple of years then fizzled out.

There was no claim about cleaning carbon deposits, so they probably missed out on some extra sales there!

mshmodela · 05-23-2015, 04:35 PM

Well, I took my Model A for what I planned on 20 mile ride but it start to backfire after about 2 miles.. I made it back home and the engine was at the neck of the water pump 155 F with a laser thermometer. I let it warm of further for 10 more mins and tried some water misted into my Zenith 1... I tried this several times and noted the engine did slow a bit... I let the engine run at a fast idle for until I felt the water was burned out... I took it for a ride around the block but clearly backfiring under load...

http://modelabasics.com/Roadside%20Troubleshooting.htm

Has some suggestions:

Backfiring Under Load (throttle wide open at relatively low rpm’s) often indicates a problem in electrical/ignition/timing.

Culprits include:

Insufficient point gap (should be set at .018 to .020) (See Ignition opens a new page)
Timing
Bad condenser
Bad distributor body
Frayed wire between upper plate and lower plate on the distributor
Intermittent connection of the ignition switch

My points are 0.018. The distributor body was replaced about 2 months ago (better gap at the contacts so I'm not thinking that at this point...) I have a modern distributor...

After setting for about 3 hours, she fired right up... 3 cranks... she started as normal. I let her warm up to 160 F at the neck of the thermostat. I watched the clear top distributor cap.. Seeing spark at least at the body contacts as normal... I rev'ed it up to see if I can get a backfire upon from fast rpm to low but, no backfire... I cut the GAV to all the way off to see if a too lean zenith might cause a backfire. No but the engine you could tell was staring to get gas starved... I run with 1/4 open... I guess my next run is to try the car after a 10min warm up... and see how it drives under load...

Mitch//pa · 05-23-2015, 08:14 PM

modern dist okay, so you have the modern points i assume, does it have the wireless plate also ?..

its very possible whatever is causing your back firing also caused #1 plug to foul originally..

mshmodela · 05-24-2015, 09:08 AM

Mitch, I'll check for a wireless plate and I've exchaned plugs in the #1 and #2 cylinders... to see. Also thinking of grabing a vacuum guage after reading from Les Andrew's blue book...

Dodge · 05-24-2015, 02:24 PM

Did you put a litter warmer spark plug in it? That plug you cleaned might have a bad
insulator and fouled again.

mshmodela · 05-24-2015, 02:41 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Currently running W18's...

Here's video 1, engine just started (cold engine) with a vacuum gauge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGvCkZ8GNzY

and hot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkgo6J8T8Fw

I believe it's a "wired" lower plate

mshmodela · 05-26-2015, 07:39 PM

With the plug from cylinder #1 now in cylinder #2 and vice versa, I ran the vaccum test.. letting the engine run for 25 mins at fast idle and afterwards checking the plugs... The more fouled plug from cylinder #2 which was the plug from cylinder #1 was in fact slightly cleaned... the plug from cylinder #1 was now a bit more fouled so ... yes it's an issue with that cylinder, the #1 cylinder...

Today, I clearned with a torch all plugs and checked for the gap. I'm thinking a valve issue so I added 1/2 can of sea foam to the oil and let it run at a fast idle for 30mins.. seemed fine.. will try a few more hit up runs before dumping the oil... Ans trying some short drives.... if this does now work, my thinking is pulling the valve cover and taking a look..

mshmodela · 05-28-2015, 07:58 PM

The black gook in the #1 cylinders is bad..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14j1dVpzZ2M

other not so much

Mitch//pa · 05-28-2015, 08:03 PM

i do always love your videos

....
have you ran the tank out of gas and tried fresh fuel with no additives, mmo//seafoam or anything else...??
just thinking out loud

Mitch//pa · 05-28-2015, 09:33 PM

again thinking out loud
i have seen where a tank was sealed and when the product started failing it slowly fed into the fuel system.. any signs of anything in the sediment bulb..

from what i remember you have no blow-by and no oil smoking from exhaust

James Rogers · 05-29-2015, 05:45 AM

Looking at the video of the cylinders it looks like you are due for a rebuild. All the cylinders are on the verge of being what #1 is. It looks like the engine has worn nicely and all cylinders close. I have seen engines come into my shop that didn't smoke but had low compression on all cylinders (45-50#) that ran well but would fowl plugs and miss till the plug was cleaned or replaced. Sorry if this is bad news but it happens.

mshmodela · 05-29-2015, 08:11 AM

James,

Likely so, that much gook is not good at all.. I did a leak down test but I think I performed it in correctly. I will perform another today. I do know the the both manifolds (gaskets) are relatively new so that might suggest they were at some time leaking there so some one else removed them to get to the valves.

Mitch, I've not drained the tank but I have used MMO 4oz/10 gals... I've added Seafoam to the oil (my guess it's just a very think Alcohol per the directions...) I've not added any to the fuel. I would guess it's more volatile than gasoline and burn hotter and their idea is to burn off the carbon and maybe some of the black gook..

Tom Wesenberg · 05-29-2015, 09:19 AM

I would install the thermostat and just drive it and see if #1 fouls again. It wouldn't hurt to take it on country roads once in a while where you can go 45 for a distance.

My 28 had good power and ran fine with 50 lbs. compression. I'm only taking it apart to see what the ticking noise is. I suspect piston slap.

Mitch//pa · 05-29-2015, 09:28 AM

i would also drain out whats in the tank and start fresh

mshmodela · 05-29-2015, 11:45 AM

Update: I replaced the condenser yesterday --yet to test the engine under load. I order a thermostat a week or so ago along with other items some of which are on back order... I will drain what 3 days of seafoam (1/2 can) in the oil will do... As mentioned I did a leak down test but I think I performed it incorrectly. That will get repeated... Understood on if I need to pull the valve cover to pull the mainifolds, I can see that would give more access near top of the valves.... This is all a learning experience and that's all fine... Thanks for all of the help from your pros on the ford barn.

mshmodela · 05-29-2015, 02:43 PM

Interesting seafoam video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdT4DPFXIkM

mshmodela · 05-29-2015, 04:09 PM

Well, I manage to get my El Cheapo $10 waterpoof Endoscope working with my Linux laptop. had to punt on my MacBooks... More videos to come.. We'll really see in the cylinders... at least the top.

Mitch//pa · 05-29-2015, 04:15 PM

your a proctologist also

mshmodela · 05-29-2015, 05:48 PM

Here are some very poor video quality videos from inside each cylinder... The audio at times jumps.

#1 Cylinder:

https://youtu.be/kgdMjJ1fU8o

#2 Cylinder

https://youtu.be/PCftQSipXDo

#3 Cylinder

https://youtu.be/HZB4ip7shi4

#4 Cylinder

https://youtu.be/pZArTz231i8

Number #4 one valve is below the surface of the block..

I do not think I'll have a need for a proctologist myself

after looking at #4 cylinder, I can go with ease.

mshmodela · 06-02-2015, 05:41 PM

UPDATE:

OK, last weekend we had 48hrs of rain... I dropped the oil with SeaFoam which had 4 to 5 20min engine runs at fast idle with the seafoam in the oil... I also replaced the condenser... I know:

1) 8th valve (exhast for #4 is below the deck (see video of that above).

So I figured I'd take the car for spin after a 10min warm up, what the heck... engine was at 150F.. and took it about 5 circuits around my 1 mile city block getting up to 30mph... No sign of backfiring whatsoever... I did run 1/2 opened GAV instead of 1/4 and a take faster idle... I know my engine is likely due for a rebuild at some point and educating myself on the babbit vs insert.. (gee like oil vs oil threads). I suspect this just the car having a lucky day. I am awaiting a thermostat from Snyders and some other parts... I plan on pulling the valve cover and manifold as suggested... I'm not sold I've fixed anything...

I look forward to learning this so totally different puzzle to me

05-23-2015, 04:35 PM	#22
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: 1 one cylinder Well, I took my Model A for what I planned on 20 mile ride but it start to backfire after about 2 miles.. I made it back home and the engine was at the neck of the water pump 155 F with a laser thermometer. I let it warm of further for 10 more mins and tried some water misted into my Zenith 1... I tried this several times and noted the engine did slow a bit... I let the engine run at a fast idle for until I felt the water was burned out... I took it for a ride around the block but clearly backfiring under load... http://modelabasics.com/Roadside%20Troubleshooting.htm Has some suggestions: Backfiring Under Load (throttle wide open at relatively low rpm’s) often indicates a problem in electrical/ignition/timing. Culprits include: Insufficient point gap (should be set at .018 to .020) (See Ignition opens a new page) Timing Bad condenser Bad distributor body Frayed wire between upper plate and lower plate on the distributor Intermittent connection of the ignition switch My points are 0.018. The distributor body was replaced about 2 months ago (better gap at the contacts so I'm not thinking that at this point...) I have a modern distributor... After setting for about 3 hours, she fired right up... 3 cranks... she started as normal. I let her warm up to 160 F at the neck of the thermostat. I watched the clear top distributor cap.. Seeing spark at least at the body contacts as normal... I rev'ed it up to see if I can get a backfire upon from fast rpm to low but, no backfire... I cut the GAV to all the way off to see if a too lean zenith might cause a backfire. No but the engine you could tell was staring to get gas starved... I run with 1/4 open... I guess my next run is to try the car after a 10min warm up... and see how it drives under load... __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio Last edited by mshmodela; 05-23-2015 at 06:16 PM.

05-23-2015, 08:14 PM	#23
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: 1 one cylinder modern dist okay, so you have the modern points i assume, does it have the wireless plate also ?.. its very possible whatever is causing your back firing also caused #1 plug to foul originally.. Last edited by Mitch//pa; 05-23-2015 at 08:19 PM.

05-24-2015, 09:08 AM	#24
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: 1 one cylinder Mitch, I'll check for a wireless plate and I've exchaned plugs in the #1 and #2 cylinders... to see. Also thinking of grabing a vacuum guage after reading from Les Andrew's blue book... __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio Last edited by mshmodela; 05-24-2015 at 04:35 PM.

05-24-2015, 02:24 PM	#25
Dodge Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Sonoma, CA. Posts: 1,496	Re: 1 one cylinder Did you put a litter warmer spark plug in it? That plug you cleaned might have a bad insulator and fouled again.

05-24-2015, 02:41 PM	#26
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: 1 one cylinder Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Currently running W18's... Here's video 1, engine just started (cold engine) with a vacuum gauge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGvCkZ8GNzY and hot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkgo6J8T8Fw I believe it's a "wired" lower plate __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio Last edited by mshmodela; 05-24-2015 at 06:05 PM.

05-26-2015, 07:39 PM	#27
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: 1 one cylinder With the plug from cylinder #1 now in cylinder #2 and vice versa, I ran the vaccum test.. letting the engine run for 25 mins at fast idle and afterwards checking the plugs... The more fouled plug from cylinder #2 which was the plug from cylinder #1 was in fact slightly cleaned... the plug from cylinder #1 was now a bit more fouled so ... yes it's an issue with that cylinder, the #1 cylinder... Today, I clearned with a torch all plugs and checked for the gap. I'm thinking a valve issue so I added 1/2 can of sea foam to the oil and let it run at a fast idle for 30mins.. seemed fine.. will try a few more hit up runs before dumping the oil... Ans trying some short drives.... if this does now work, my thinking is pulling the valve cover and taking a look.. __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio

05-28-2015, 07:58 PM	#28
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: 1 one cylinder The black gook in the #1 cylinders is bad.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14j1dVpzZ2M other not so much __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio

05-28-2015, 08:03 PM	#29
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: 1 one cylinder i do always love your videos.... have you ran the tank out of gas and tried fresh fuel with no additives, mmo//seafoam or anything else...?? just thinking out loud

05-28-2015, 09:33 PM	#30
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: 1 one cylinder again thinking out loud i have seen where a tank was sealed and when the product started failing it slowly fed into the fuel system.. any signs of anything in the sediment bulb.. from what i remember you have no blow-by and no oil smoking from exhaust

05-29-2015, 05:45 AM	#31
James Rogers Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Asheville,NC Posts: 3,104	Re: 1 one cylinder Looking at the video of the cylinders it looks like you are due for a rebuild. All the cylinders are on the verge of being what #1 is. It looks like the engine has worn nicely and all cylinders close. I have seen engines come into my shop that didn't smoke but had low compression on all cylinders (45-50#) that ran well but would fowl plugs and miss till the plug was cleaned or replaced. Sorry if this is bad news but it happens. __________________ http://www.model-a-ford-4bangers.com/

05-29-2015, 08:11 AM	#32
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: 1 one cylinder James, Likely so, that much gook is not good at all.. I did a leak down test but I think I performed it in correctly. I will perform another today. I do know the the both manifolds (gaskets) are relatively new so that might suggest they were at some time leaking there so some one else removed them to get to the valves. Mitch, I've not drained the tank but I have used MMO 4oz/10 gals... I've added Seafoam to the oil (my guess it's just a very think Alcohol per the directions...) I've not added any to the fuel. I would guess it's more volatile than gasoline and burn hotter and their idea is to burn off the carbon and maybe some of the black gook.. __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio

05-29-2015, 09:19 AM	#33
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: 1 one cylinder I would install the thermostat and just drive it and see if #1 fouls again. It wouldn't hurt to take it on country roads once in a while where you can go 45 for a distance. My 28 had good power and ran fine with 50 lbs. compression. I'm only taking it apart to see what the ticking noise is. I suspect piston slap.

05-29-2015, 09:28 AM	#34
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: 1 one cylinder i would also drain out whats in the tank and start fresh

05-29-2015, 11:45 AM	#35
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: 1 one cylinder Update: I replaced the condenser yesterday --yet to test the engine under load. I order a thermostat a week or so ago along with other items some of which are on back order... I will drain what 3 days of seafoam (1/2 can) in the oil will do... As mentioned I did a leak down test but I think I performed it incorrectly. That will get repeated... Understood on if I need to pull the valve cover to pull the mainifolds, I can see that would give more access near top of the valves.... This is all a learning experience and that's all fine... Thanks for all of the help from your pros on the ford barn. __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio

05-29-2015, 02:43 PM	#36
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: 1 one cylinder Interesting seafoam video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdT4DPFXIkM __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio

05-29-2015, 04:09 PM	#37
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: 1 one cylinder Well, I manage to get my El Cheapo $10 waterpoof Endoscope working with my Linux laptop. had to punt on my MacBooks... More videos to come.. We'll really see in the cylinders... at least the top. __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio

05-29-2015, 04:15 PM	#38
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: 1 one cylinder your a proctologist also

05-29-2015, 05:48 PM	#39
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: 1 one cylinder Here are some very poor video quality videos from inside each cylinder... The audio at times jumps. #1 Cylinder: https://youtu.be/kgdMjJ1fU8o #2 Cylinder https://youtu.be/PCftQSipXDo #3 Cylinder https://youtu.be/HZB4ip7shi4 #4 Cylinder https://youtu.be/pZArTz231i8 Number #4 one valve is below the surface of the block.. I do not think I'll have a need for a proctologist myself after looking at #4 cylinder, I can go with ease. __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio Last edited by mshmodela; 05-29-2015 at 06:02 PM.

06-02-2015, 05:41 PM	#40
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: 1 one cylinder UPDATE: OK, last weekend we had 48hrs of rain... I dropped the oil with SeaFoam which had 4 to 5 20min engine runs at fast idle with the seafoam in the oil... I also replaced the condenser... I know: 1) 8th valve (exhast for #4 is below the deck (see video of that above). So I figured I'd take the car for spin after a 10min warm up, what the heck... engine was at 150F.. and took it about 5 circuits around my 1 mile city block getting up to 30mph... No sign of backfiring whatsoever... I did run 1/2 opened GAV instead of 1/4 and a take faster idle... I know my engine is likely due for a rebuild at some point and educating myself on the babbit vs insert.. (gee like oil vs oil threads). I suspect this just the car having a lucky day. I am awaiting a thermostat from Snyders and some other parts... I plan on pulling the valve cover and manifold as suggested... I'm not sold I've fixed anything... I look forward to learning this so totally different puzzle to me __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio Last edited by mshmodela; 06-02-2015 at 05:50 PM.