3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

For an Apple-to-Apples comparison, compare the New Engine Kit (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods) to similar refurbished original parts.

Compare the new engine's 16 pressure-fed bearings to the original gravity and dipper system, compare the new 2.00-inch rod journals to original 1.50-inch rod journals, compare 5 main bearings to 3 main bearings, compare 8 crankshaft counterweights to none, compare the radial lip rear main seal to the slinger, etc.

Compare the fact that the "New Engine Kit" is manufactured in a modern factory that manufactures 100's of thousands of engines per year to a small shop with antiquated equipment.

Compare the fact that the "New Engine Kit" is made from materials that have improved over the last 90 years.

Several new engines are running. One has about 7000 miles after being driven across the USA twice. Another has about 3500 miles after being in the Great Race (car #35).

See www.modelaengine.com for more information including engineering details and testing abuse (3100 RPM for 6 hours on an engine that was just assembled), and the hill climb.

[jrelliott]

What Terry and others have said, a quality rebuild cost high $, and no short cuts. A good rebuilder will stand by their work. Doing the babbiting is an art. Not many people know how to do it correctly. The person who did my engine babbiting was a Model A club member taught by a person who only did Packard and Pierce Arrow restorations. The rest of the engine rebuild was done by a shop in Rochester, MN who had a reputation for building race car engines. The engine was done about 20 years ago and still runs great. Drive it about once a week depending on weather to go to the Post Office.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif

For an Apple-to-Apples comparison, compare the New Engine Kit (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods) to similar refurbished original parts.

Terry, you are correct on all aspects of your comparison. There is no doubt in my mind that your cylinder block is a much superior piece when compared to a used, original cylinder block. I doubt you will find anyone that would say your product is not a value at the $4k price-point.


The point I was making is when someone has a budget of $5k to receive a fully machined engine vs. using your engine kit, I doubt that any machine shop can produce a turn-key engine utilizing all of your components, and then add in the costs of the items I listed above in a refurbished condition, -then still do the assembly work and be within the $5k budget.

[goodcar]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Terry, you are correct on all aspects of your comparison. There is no doubt in my mind that your cylinder block is a much superior piece when compared to a used, original cylinder block. I doubt you will find anyone that would say your product is not a value at the $4k price-point.


The point I was making is when someone has a budget of $5k to receive a fully machined engine vs. using your engine kit, I doubt that any machine shop can produce a turn-key engine utilizing all of your components, and then add in the costs of the items I listed above in a refurbished condition, -then still do the assembly work and be within the $5k budget.

So what would you estimate the total cost including labor and additional parts to be for a turn key engine ready to install using a B cam and a 6.0 head excluding manifolds, carb and ignition and water pump. I know more than $5K but how much more. I think the kit is reasonably priced. I'm not trying to scare anyone.

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Engine builders utilizing the "New Engine Kit" receive a discounted price when ordering 5 or more at the same time. Money saved with this discount can be used to buy or refurbish other parts.

Our preference is to sell to builders instead of individuals.

If a customer doesn't supply a good core, much of a rebuilders time is spent finding a good core that is economically rebuildable. Steve Becker at Bert's goes through 12 engines to find a good core. To find a good core, the engine has to be completely disassembled, cleaned, checked for cracks, and then an estimate can be made regarding the work needed.

The following statement is from the "Builders Guide".
We strongly recommend that you have your new engine built by a professional mechanic that has the knowledge, experience, and equipment to ensure a product that he can guarantee.

[Jordan]

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There's no excuse for your engine to have failed other than faulty machine work. We've talked in person and I know you're not abusing your car. You're just expecting it to perform as designed, and promised by the engine builder, and that's not too much to ask.

If Brent realized who the engine builder is, he knows this builder personally and maybe his choice of wording would change. Brent mainly messes with Model T's and this builder is popular in that hobby.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Jordan

There's no excuse for your engine to have failed other than faulty machine work. We've talked in person and I know you're not abusing your car. You're just expecting it to perform as designed, and promised by the engine builder, and that's not too much to ask.

If Brent realized who the engine builder is, he knows this builder personally and maybe his choice of wording would change. Brent mainly messes with Model T's and this builder is popular in that hobby.

Thanks Jordan. I now have a pretty good idea who your are referring to. (Is Gig -em a clue?? ) If it is whom I'm guessing, the last I heard he was outsourcing most of his machine work and just doing the casting work & line-boring work in-house. If so, maybe that's the problem?? Maybe he is now doing some machine work in-house, and that is the problem??

None the less, having that rebuilder do the failure inspection still might be the best option for Steve. If the rebuilder has a chance to make it right and does so, then Steve is a winner. If something else failed that was clearly not the fault of anyone's wrong doing, then at least Steve knows and does not falsely harbor a frustration against someone.

[hardtimes]

Mr goodcar,
You are not liable to ‘scare’ anyone , even if you tried, that is anyone who has experience with cars…. and particularly experience with old cars !
There have been many threads here, concerning costs of rebuilding model A and B engines. And tons of threads regarding buying questionable (junk) engines… to avoid the big $ involved to have a proper rebuild !
What does ‘REBUILT’ mean anyway ??? Think on that for a moment. How many times have you bought a car or just an engine, and the seller told you that the engine was ‘rebuilt’. How many times did that statement seal the deal/sale…. and that turns out be …. not true !!
How many rebuilt engine sellers issue a warranty in writing ? It is a buyer beware world.. most know that and we still get had … for small $ or big $.
What were we expecting when we buy a rebuilt for small $ ?

You get what you pay for saying , still has some truth to it, eh ?? Maybe not.

Those who like to spend their $ wisely, WILL purchase the Burtz new blk package… IMO.
And it is wise to have a big buck (A/B) engine dynod….(proof of function) prior to shelling out 5 to 10k +. Again JMO.

How many get a written detailed warranty and / or dyno results ? WHAT… none you say !
If ‘builder’ wont even talk to you about these very important things, you can always walk !
Who walks … anyone ?
The Burtz blk package is made in such way that a lot of youse with some mechanical ability can do work that saves $ in the engine building process.
AND, the available tech support is unprecedented!! Check it out , you may be surprised at how much you can do… and by how much you can save. And, you are working with NEW improved parts !
And, a manual of parts numbers/sources and instructions … that can guide you/ ME.
Hey, there is a heck of a lot of satisfaction in knowing that you did the work !

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by goodcar

So what would you estimate the total cost including labor and additional parts to be for a turn key engine ready to install using a B cam and a 6.0 head excluding manifolds, carb and ignition and water pump. I know more than $5K but how much more. I think the kit is reasonably priced. I'm not trying to scare anyone.

Since I have not assembled one of Terry's engine, so any amount I would state would just be a guess however there are some machining related tasks that I would definitely would want to do, -or at least check measurements on.

For example;

• While I realize the crankshaft is new, I would at least want to check the balance on it. I would also want to check diameters of the pins and measure run-out on the flange. It's not that I don't trust the piece, ...it's that I need to verify it is within spec since my name would be on it. When I grind a crankshaft in-house, I verify my work afterwards to, just so there are no malfunctions.
  
  
• With the crankshaft balanced, I would then want to rebuild the flywheel, -or purchase one of Terry's however the same applies to verifying balance. At minimum you would still need to spin them to be able to work the pressure plate. Much of the cost is set-up and calibration.
  
  
• Next would be the rods. They are new, but how close are they on weight? Can they be made better? Some manufacturers may feel that +/- 10g is within specs. I shoot for 0.0g +/-.
  
  
• I am not sure if Terry's block come honed to size, but I would at least want to bolt a torque plate on and verify sizing. Piston sizing these days can be as much as 0.001 difference between the set on cast. Forged pistons definitely hold a tighter tolerance however they come with a larger price tag. Being able to hone a bore to fit the piston is always a plus.
  
  
• I am not sure how Terry's block comes with Valve seat dimensions, but I would expect that it does not come with guides installed. Ideally I would want to install guides and cut my own seats. I am not sure if oversized seats is an option when ordering ...and if not, then 1.825 seats would need to be installed and cut for 1.750 intake valves. In the perfect world, cutting a 3-angle valve seat and checking concentricity is a plus in adding performance.
  
  
• I am not sure how the deck is prepared, but at minimum I would want to check RA finish and verify it being parallel to the centerline. Again, not stating it would be off, but verifying is always the prudent thing to do when this much $$ is involved. I always re-surface new cylinder heads simply as a verification and an effort to lower the RA finish.
  
• Overall, the assembly time is likely similar. Items like chamfering holes and chasing threads may or may not be needed, but again verification eliminates the need for excuses.
  

As for parts, you can likely add those numbers yourself. There are options for type & quality of pistons, rings, valves, gears, oil pumps, gaskets, fasteners, and etc. that having pricing all over the map too. I know this did not answer your question regarding $$ costs, but I think it definitely shows what procedures I would want to do when building this caliber of powerplant.

[nkaminar]

Brent,

I admit my $5,000 was a guess. But it depends on what your donor engine is. If you have an engine which has a lot of nice reusable stuff like a lightened flywheel with V8 clutch, a nice high compression head maybe Snyder 5.5, good manifolds with a Weber carb, Ares high flow muffler, cam, valves, etc., then you can save a lot of money. You will have to buy pistons and rings and may have to hone the cylinders to fit. If you do all the checking and assembly work yourself (owner does the work) then there is additional saving.

Or, sell the running nice engine and re buy all new stuff.

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Brent,

The dimensions and tolerances of the new cylinder block match Ford drawing A-6015 with the exception of the cylinder bores. The Ford drawing calls for the bores to be rolled to 3.875/3.876 inch diameter. The new engine has the cylinder bores plateau honed to 3.875/3.876 inch diameter.

In a similar manner, the crankshaft, connecting rods, and flywheel match the Ford drawings where they interface with original Ford parts.

Surface finishes, materials, and heat treatments are all modern instead of 90-year-old technology.

Every cylinder block has a unique serial number for Quality Assurance purposes.

Every component of the "New Engine Kit" is manufactured using the same CNC program and on the same CNC machines.

Periodically, a component is pulled for Quality Assurance inspection in a temperature-controlled room and verified with a CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine) to ensure that it matches the drawing requirements.

The crankshaft and connecting rods are balanced to the same tolerances as other engines made in the factory that rev to 7000 RPM.

We would be happy to sell engine kits to you and have you as one of our engine builders.

To satisfy yourself on the quality of the new engine you may want to verify one at your expense, but to charge your customers for what you outlined above is not right.

Why do you want to install intake valve seats?

John Lampl had a serious talk with one of our overseas distributors. Instead of reselling the un-built "New Engine Kits" at a small profit, he was wanting to re-hone the cylinders and do a bunch of other unneeded work to increase his profit margin.

If you reply to [email protected], I'll be happy to provide the contact information of engine builders.

[Gene F]

My latest one, I never even asked about price. I was looking for reliability. I did not go with the Scat crank, because I figured super new design, in a quite old design may not get me anywhere...

[SteveR.]

Appreciate everyone's input very much. I may try to haul the car to the builder and see what he comes up with... unfortunately that is a 6 hour round trip drive pulling a trailer. I will keep everyone informed once I speak to him and take time to diagnose.

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Gene F,

The SCAT crankshafts are a good product because they have no fatigue cycles when new.

The downside is that they are a steel-fits-all forging made in India that can be machined to become a Model A crankshaft, a Chevrolet crankshaft, or a Model B crankshaft with Model A size connecting rod journals.

There is not enough material on the SCAT forging for Model B rod journals.

Forged steel has little damping which is another subject.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Thanks Terry, ...I am going to comment in red below. I truly appreciate your interaction and I do apologize to Steve for plugging up his thread.


The dimensions and tolerances of the new cylinder block match Ford drawing A-6015 with the exception of the cylinder bores. The Ford drawing calls for the bores to be rolled to 3.875/3.876 inch diameter. The new engine has the cylinder bores plateau honed to 3.875/3.876 inch diameter.
I also have the 6015 print. My print is the 03/15/28 print with the EI #7753. I have never really understand why the engineers chose the word 'roll' there as the engineering books I have referenced use the term roll to describe the exterior of a wound surface. A coupe of other points to add to this confusion is on my print in Section K-K it also calls for the bores to be reamed to 3.873/3.874. If the term 'roll' is synonymous with honed, then having a hone hash of 0.001" is pretty minute IMO. I have always assumed this print likely does not specify finish work since it does not describe valve seat finishes that I have found. Maybe this is on another print that I need to look for?? Also, why I finally blew-off this is because of the dimensions of the A-6110 piston print which basically called for 0.012 at the ring lands and 0.020 at the skirt. Since modern pistons do not follow those original Ford dimensions (-including adding for overbores), I have chosen to hone the bore to the dimension of the individual piston slated for that hole. Since some Model-A piston sets have a variance approaching 0.001" when comparing all 4, I just choose to use the piston's dimension as my sizing standard allowing for heat expansion clearance.


The crankshaft and connecting rods are balanced to the same tolerances as other engines made in the factory that rev to 7000 RPM.
A couple of points in this. I am a dealer for SCAT, and so I am very familiar with their product. We also field two race cars from my son's race car shop that both have SCAT components. While we did not build either of our race motors in-house, we were hands-on with the builder, and while we both were very satisfied with SCAT's components, there was room for improvement with regard to balance and so we did so. As in the case with the crankshaft and rods that you supply, at minimum the rods need to be weighed. The same for the crankshaft as it will need to be set-up and spun to have a baseline for when we balance the flywheel itself, and as an assembly. So while it may seem to some people that we are senselessly performing redundant work to increase our profit margin, it is more about verification and performing tasks on components outside of what you are supplying.


We would be happy to sell engine kits to you and have you as one of our engine builders. To satisfy yourself on the quality of the new engine you may want to verify one at your expense, but to charge your customers for what you outlined above is not right.
Thank you. I actually have been in discussions with a former customer about either he, -or I purchasing one and doing a build for one of his other cars at my shop. So yes, that day may come and I definitely would be excited to do so.


Why do you want to install intake valve seats?
Terry, I have not had the chance to look at your engine cylinder block in person yet however it appeared to me in one of the pictures that you were installing seats. If I was mistaken, then please accept my apology and you would be correct as I also feel there would be no need to install a larger seat when installing a larger intake valve.

This does bring up a couple of questions;

1) Is there any type of valve guide installed into the bore when the block is shipped to the customer?

2) Is the valve seat machined & finished when the block is shipped, -or what is the suggested protocol for that?

3) If the cylinder block comes standard with a intake valve seat, is there any option available for a larger intake valve and bowl area?

John Lampl had a serious talk with one of our overseas distributors. Instead of reselling the un-built "New Engine Kits" at a small profit, he was wanting to re-hone the cylinders and do a bunch of other unneeded work to increase his profit margin.
Terry, I cannot speak for Mr. Lampl and/or that distributor's reasoning, however I will share mine in this instance. It is rare in this day and time when a group of items are perfect (-i.e.: within specifications) each & every time, -especially in the Model-A aftermarket. Just as in this thread alone, the blame for Steve's engine failure is directed solely at the engine rebuilder. If the engine rebuilder is whom I believe he is, he is not pouring/machining the connecting rods that he is using in his engine. So using Steve's engine as an example, it was a connecting rod that failed, it doesn't matter who the vendor was that supplied the rod. It is the engine rebuilder who will receive the blame and bad reputation. While I have utmost respect for you and your integrity, however you and your vendors are human, -and as such are capable of mistakes. Suggesting that someone is doing unnecessary work to increase their profit margin is unfair from my perspective when that distributor has his reputation at stake.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif

..................
If a customer doesn't supply a good core, much of a rebuilders time is spent finding a good core that is economically rebuildable. Steve Becker at Bert's goes through 12 engines to find a good core. To find a good core, the engine has to be completely disassembled, cleaned, checked for cracks, and then an estimate can be made regarding the work needed...............

.[/I]

To me this statement says a LOT.

I have a friend that went thru this with a reputable engine builder here in the Midwest. Three complete engines later after cracks in the side of the block showed up and other problems, that the builder tried to hide with JB Weld and paint(seriously?) he was into that project for a ton of cash, and very unhappy, and still had an old block.

The availability, to me anyway, of a brand new 2021 Model A Ford Terry Burtz engine block vs. a 90 year old used block, that if it isn't already cracked may soon be, is a no-brainer. It looks like the smart $$ is spent up front on a Burtz block build. Plus you get the benefits of five main bearings.

Terry had a good presentation on this engine at the MARC National last month. I was not there but watched the video that Mark Maron made. It was very good.

Thank goodness for someone like Terry Burtz that put all of that time and effort into this job.

[rotorwrench]

Ford did use a hardened steel roller set up to roll burnish their cylinders in the early years around 1914 but I don't know when they discontinued that process. This process is still used for hydraulic cylinders. This link has a photo of one of their set ups.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...tml?1377361579

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Brent,

The Model A cylinders are first reamed to 3.873/3.874 inches and then enlarged by rolling to 3.875/3.876 inches. Rolling and honing are not synonyms. The full name of the process is "Roller Burnishing". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_burnishing

Surface finishes are not specified on Model A drawings. The drawings frequently mention a process that implies a surface finish.

I hope that your customer wanting a new engine is on the waiting list. Our order for 500 engine kits is expected to start arriving near the end of August.

The new cylinder block has hard exhaust valve seats only. There are no intake valve seats and no guides.

The valve seats are ready for use. You may want to lap the valves. See the "Builders Guide". If a valve and guide are installed and the valve is lifted and allowed to fall from gravity, it will bounce if everything is concentric. If the valve doesn't bounce, things are not concentric.

[alexiskai]

This discussion makes me think about the rare times when I've had an engine fail in a modern car. Rebuilding the engine block from scratch wasn't even something I contemplated. I (or more accurately, my mechanic) just went and bought an engine from another car that had been running well and passed some basic checks. There are complete engines out there from projects and hot rods available at costs far lower than the cost of rebuilding. I wonder if rebuilding as Plan A (rather than Plan B or C or Z) is just traditional at this point.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

This discussion makes me think about the rare times when I've had an engine fail in a modern car. Rebuilding the engine block from scratch wasn't even something I contemplated. I (or more accurately, my mechanic) just went and bought an engine from another car that had been running well and passed some basic checks. There are complete engines out there from projects and hot rods available at costs far lower than the cost of rebuilding. I wonder if rebuilding as Plan A (rather than Plan B or C or Z) is just traditional at this point.

I think you have hit on something here. My advise, if it isn’t broken, don’t try and fix it.

With good care, an engine rebuilt in the sixties. Still should have many good miles left on it.