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Old 02-28-2016, 08:08 PM   #1
gilitos
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Default Why did this rod fail?

About 100 gentle miles on the rebuild. Newly poured rods on a new Burlington crankshaft. Highly reputable builder known to many on this forum. Full flow filter. Began to knock like heck. This happened a year ago but after all I went through for a no-holds-barred rebuild, I was too beartsick to pull the motor apart to see what happened until now.

The bad one is #2; I also pulled #3 cap and took a picture for comparison. Dipper trays were full of oil and #3 journal was dripping oil when i pulled it apart, so I don't think it was a pump failure. The crankshaft journal is visually okay.

Anybody have an opinion? Should the motor be torn down and rebuilt? Thanks for opining!
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Old 02-28-2016, 08:17 PM   #2
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Clearance was checked at assembly? Dipper on rod was facing the right way? Piston looks OK? No sign of it seizing? It really sucks when you try to do the right thing and this happens.
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Old 02-28-2016, 08:37 PM   #3
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

It looks like it was too tight. What weight oil was used? check the pump output after it is fixed.
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Old 02-28-2016, 09:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

I would say that both are bad.But it looks like the dark one was getting hot like the lack of oil.
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Old 02-28-2016, 10:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilitos View Post
About 100 gentle miles on the rebuild. Newly poured rods on a new Burlington crankshaft. Highly reputable builder known to many on this forum. Full flow filter. Began to knock like heck. This happened a year ago but after all I went through for a no-holds-barred rebuild, I was too beartsick to pull the motor apart to see what happened until now.

The bad one is #2; I also pulled #3 cap and took a picture for comparison. Dipper trays were full of oil and #3 journal was dripping oil when i pulled it apart, so I don't think it was a pump failure. The crankshaft journal is visually okay.

Anybody have an opinion? Should the motor be torn down and rebuilt? Thanks for opining!
What did your rebuilder think ???
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Old 02-28-2016, 10:40 PM   #6
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Miller View Post
I would say that both are bad.But it looks like the dark one was getting hot like the lack of oil.
I was thinking the same thing.

What was the break in procedure?

With so few miles, it isn't even broke in yet.
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Old 02-28-2016, 10:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Are the open side of the dippers facing the camshaft? Might be a good time for some new insert rods.
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Old 02-28-2016, 10:44 PM   #8
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Breakin procedure is drive it slow and easy.
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Old 02-29-2016, 12:12 AM   #9
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J Franklin View Post
It looks like it was too tight. What weight oil was used? check the pump output after it is fixed.
It really really sucks when you try to do the right thing and this happens.

Too tight was my first thought. What did the builder say? I would have sent it back. Even if it cost a few hundred dollars, but now you opened it he can't see clearance, alignment, etc any more. To have a new person look at it it going to cost thousands more then the shipment.
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Old 02-29-2016, 12:39 AM   #10
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

folks he has no oil wells
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Old 02-29-2016, 04:03 AM   #11
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

I wonder why the side thrusts are completely broken away on #2?
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Old 02-29-2016, 04:12 AM   #12
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbirdtbird View Post
folks he has no oil wells
Bingo.
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Old 02-29-2016, 05:43 AM   #13
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Looks to me like the failed one was poured a little cold. The worker's attention only has to be taken away from the job for a while for the melt to drop in temp. That would explain the broken edges too.
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Old 02-29-2016, 09:00 AM   #14
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

If you look at the so called good one, it is starting to change color also. Plus the contact area is not right. I think it is not getting enough oil, like maybe the pump is not working right. If it was mine I would go over every thing. But it looks also like the rods were never done right.
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Old 02-29-2016, 09:07 AM   #15
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Who was the rebuilder?
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Old 02-29-2016, 09:54 AM   #16
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilitos View Post
About 100 gentle miles on the rebuild. Newly poured rods on a new Burlington crankshaft. Highly reputable builder known to many on this forum. Full flow filter. Began to knock like heck. This happened a year ago but after all I went through for a no-holds-barred rebuild, I was too beartsick to pull the motor apart to see what happened until now.

The bad one is #2; I also pulled #3 cap and took a picture for comparison. Dipper trays were full of oil and #3 journal was dripping oil when i pulled it apart, so I don't think it was a pump failure. The crankshaft journal is visually okay.

Anybody have an opinion? Should the motor be torn down and rebuilt? Thanks for opining!
He has full flow oil filter, but no mention of pressure oiling, and he did say his dipper tray was full.

I was also wondering if the cap got installed backwards, but I can't imagine an engine builder making that kind of mistake.

I wonder who did the rod babbit?
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Old 02-29-2016, 10:28 AM   #17
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Lack of lubricant is clear.

1. Does the Rod surface look the same?

2. It appears that there is material build up on #2, so maybe the cap wasn't flush with the rod when assembled?

3. The cap may have been installed the wrong way, not allowing the oil to be picked up. Most likely to me, since I think it uses the "Dipper" to oil the rod journals.

4. If it is an oil pump problem, wouldn't the mains be a bigger problem?

5. If the engine is pressurized, shouldn't the holes be plugged?

I would get with the builder. It clearly isn't any thing you have done wrong, as long as the engine had the oil the builder recommended.
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Old 02-29-2016, 10:51 AM   #18
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

How much oil was drained, what was in it, and how did it look?

Were the head nuts torqued often enough to keep them tight, so no coolant got in the oil?
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Old 02-29-2016, 10:59 AM   #19
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Thanks for all the comments. So #3 looks like it may have been on the way out? The babbitt surface was very oily when I disassembled it.; it's not dark or scuffed. I figured that the uneven color was the process of a bearing bedding in.

Caps were all installed in the correct direction.
It's not a pressurized system.
I will definitely talk with the builder but I want other opinions first.
I wouldn't call out the builder unless it was clearly their fault and they didn't work to resolve the issue.
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Old 02-29-2016, 11:08 AM   #20
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Also, I drained about 3.5 qts of oil and it looked fine. It was between the marks on the dipstick. There are now fine droplets of babbitt on the inside of the block around #2. I'll tell you what, that's pretty ugly!! I should post a picture of that for the gallery of Model A horrors.
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Old 02-29-2016, 01:13 PM   #21
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Another thing I do not like is the caps only have one side machined. Are they flat with the other side, that has not been machined. Not the best way to do things. The answer would be no.
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Old 02-29-2016, 08:23 PM   #22
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Probably too tight.
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Old 02-29-2016, 08:40 PM   #23
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

They have wells. The photo doesn't have enough contrast to show them 'well'.
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Old 02-29-2016, 10:16 PM   #24
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

then the next question is what clearance was used?
Should be .0015-002.
which babbitt alloy was used? There are several that should be avoided.
were appropriate temps met stringently?
was the babbitt peened?
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Old 03-01-2016, 07:51 PM   #25
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

OK Boys, know that the engine is one of ours. I seen this post about 10:00 today and waited until now, to get in more comments.

First of all, something has gotten into the bearings, The worst one of the two, all the damage is on the crank side of the Babbitt. I see no tinning problem what so ever, as the babbitt is still in the rod.

Look at the oil grooves, in the bottom of the bad cap. They are the same kind of surface as the whole, or most of the cap, and the crank can not touch the bottom of the grooves, so there has to have been something in between.

Mr. T.B., the mains always will have .002 thousandths clearance here, and the Model A Rods will have .001-75, with .001-60 being Minimum, and .002-10 being Maximum.

Also MR. T. B., Model T, A and B, Fords do not have oil wells. They are only used in pressure bearings, and not always then. I can explain the rest if you want some time on here.

George, the rods are machined on both sides.

When the Babbitt in the cap starts getting thinner, it will knock off the flanges very easily, with the small pieces of Babbitt trying to get out.

Mr. Vicky, 2. It appears that there is material build up on #2, so maybe the cap wasn't flush with the rod when assembled?

Can't Happen.

Now, Giles and I have gotten along real good, (or did), I know he is a God Fearing Man, and tells it, as he knows it.

Giles, calling you about 3 times an asking if you got your engine running, you hadn't until the I think, the 3rd time when you told me that you and your boy had just got it in and were telling me you still didn't have a radiator, as you were waiting on one from some where.

At that time you made me cringe when you said, you had run the motor in the car with no water, and I said oh, that's not good, and you then said, it was only for about 5 minutes, which is way to long, as any running under that condition, is to long, and NEVER should be done.

Nothing else I could say, it was over and done.

I might add, when you run a fresh motor with out water, all the high temps stay around the top of the cylinders, and no way to dissipate the heat evenly. If I also recall, Giles torqued the head again, and that would have made an uneven torque, hot, or cold, because the top of the block, and head were of uneven heat.

Then there was a period of time when you e-Mailed me and said you had a water leak, and you pulled the head, and there was a crack in the block, and sent pictures, which I still have in my other PC, as all your e-Mails.

You said you were going to try to get someone to fix it on your end. You said that you had found some one then, and that is the last I had heard from you, I think ?

So, did you get it fixed?

Who put on the head and torqued it?

From running it with out water, did the pistons score?

Was there antifreeze in the engine?

Again, what kind of oil?

Thanks,

Herm.
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Old 03-01-2016, 07:57 PM   #26
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbirdtbird View Post
then the next question is what clearance was used?
Should be .0015-002.
which babbitt alloy was used? There are several that should be avoided.
were appropriate temps met stringently?
was the babbitt peened?
Mr. T.B., the only Babbitt that you don't want to use is a lead base.

We use Grade No. 2

Herm.
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Old 03-02-2016, 02:31 AM   #27
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

OK so it would seem obvious then who is at fault here
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Old 03-02-2016, 02:48 AM   #28
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting View Post

At that time you made me cringe when you said, you had run the motor in the car with no water, and I said oh, that's not good, and you then said, it was only for about 5 minutes, which is way to long, as any running under that condition, is to long, and NEVER should be done.
Guess those that said overheat were correct.
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Old 03-02-2016, 03:36 AM   #29
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by forever4 View Post
Overheated one rod bearing (but not the other next to it) in five minutes from lack of water?
Yet had oil and oil pump in engine.
And didn't score/seize the cylinders or pistons or rings?
I must have missed it but where does he say the other two were good. He did show one very bad and one showing slight damage. I also seemed to have missed the post where he states the cylinders were not scored and the rings are in good shape.
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Old 03-02-2016, 10:00 AM   #30
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Personally I am sure the motor was run for longer than 5 minutes.
Everyone says 5 min for everything
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:44 AM   #31
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Just for grins how do we know if the owner primed the valve chamber and thus the mains with oil? How do we know if he had enough oil in it? How about a pic of the dipper tray? Is it one of those that was misguidedly drilled out? If he is willing to run a motor with no water then to me all bets are off
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:56 AM   #32
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Yep someone got excited to hear it run! No water, no oil priming, to slow idle, the list could go on.
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Old 03-02-2016, 12:15 PM   #33
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

This was a Model T engine with a complete rebuild, about 1000 to 1200 miles that ran out of oil because the owner thought it was full because the oil would drip out of the top petcock with a drop or two, an honest mistake, I did that also did that when I was a kid.

Here are the rods and pistons, cylinders did not have a mark in them, and it only took out one rod, No. 3, and it was No. 4 piston that got creamed. If it wasn't for the Aluminum in the Babbitt, the 3 rods could have been used over.

The mains are all full of Aluminum also.
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Old 03-02-2016, 12:40 PM   #34
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

I have about 249 pictures of Giles engine, here are a few.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Giles 012.jpg (47.2 KB, 84 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 019.jpg (38.1 KB, 81 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 021.jpg (35.9 KB, 76 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 032.jpg (168.2 KB, 70 views)
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File Type: jpg Giles 200.jpg (197.6 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 222.jpg (71.0 KB, 79 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 227.jpg (44.3 KB, 67 views)
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Old 03-02-2016, 01:41 PM   #35
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Here are some more.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Giles 255.jpg (66.5 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 258.jpg (159.9 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 271.jpg (70.7 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 277.jpg (152.6 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 299.jpg (39.2 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 338.jpg (56.6 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 363.jpg (36.0 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 366.jpg (42.8 KB, 55 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 376.jpg (60.2 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 379.jpg (89.7 KB, 51 views)
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File Type: jpg Giles 400.jpg (37.7 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 404.jpg (44.4 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 409.jpg (41.4 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 413.jpg (44.4 KB, 60 views)
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Old 03-02-2016, 02:00 PM   #36
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Here's more
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Giles 422.jpg (38.2 KB, 55 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 426.jpg (42.4 KB, 48 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 429.jpg (177.1 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 432.jpg (166.5 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 434.jpg (166.1 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 436.jpg (162.9 KB, 46 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 440.jpg (45.1 KB, 46 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 448.jpg (51.0 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 459.jpg (79.8 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 469.jpg (98.5 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 466.jpg (68.9 KB, 48 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 471.jpg (44.9 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 472.jpg (35.7 KB, 48 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 475.jpg (154.3 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 520.jpg (48.8 KB, 52 views)
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Old 03-02-2016, 02:11 PM   #37
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

You do beautiful work, Herm.
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Old 03-02-2016, 02:38 PM   #38
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Here's More.

This is all I done to the motor.

The pan on there is mine, on with 4 bolts, just for protection.

Herm.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Giles 526.jpg (180.6 KB, 54 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 528.jpg (44.3 KB, 54 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 538.jpg (58.8 KB, 49 views)
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File Type: jpg Giles 567.jpg (92.4 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 574.jpg (69.0 KB, 49 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 580.jpg (203.5 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 563.jpg (153.1 KB, 49 views)
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Old 03-02-2016, 03:13 PM   #39
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Here are some pictures of the way the motor came in.

The story that was told me, that the engine was rebuilt by a very well known engine builder in Ohio. Giles said it got less then a 100 miles on it and the bearings went out.

Then he took it back a second time, and they did it over for NO CHARGE.

Then less then a 100 miles, the bearings went out again, and the builders said this time they they would have to charge him to do it again, so that is when I got it.

Now in all fairness to Giles, the first time bearings, I did not see, but the second time, was the worst attempt at a Babbitt job, I have seen for a long time.

His block had at least two cracks, and was not cleaned very good.

Here are some of the pictures I took when it came in to Vern at Arnold Motors, in Fort Dodge, Iowa.

By the way, if you want perfect motor work done, send it to Vern. 800-765-2926, a little plug there for him. He gets engines from all over.

Herm.
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Old 03-02-2016, 04:44 PM   #40
gilitos
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Well, Herm, I'm sorry you got drug into this. I didn't mention your name on purpose and I had no intention to do so. Your work was gorgeous and these problems had nothing to do with your work. My problem started when another crack appeared in the block after I got it back from you. I would have much preferred to send it back to you and Vern to take care of it, but shipping costs to Iowa and the presence of a local 'professional' antique engine repair place here overcame my better judgement. How could a crack repair be so difficult? Well, it turned out that it was for them. The motor went back to that shop twice for repair of the same crack problem (after the first time, the valve seat popped out in a few miles). I got it back from that shop the second time and the rod bearing went out. Personally I don't believe that the oil pump was reinstalled correctly. It's okay, I'm only out about $6000 at this point.

I want to reiterate to everyone that the quality of Herm and Vern's work, and the communication, and the service, was the best I have seen. I believe that my problems came from the shop I went to (twice) for crack repair.
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Old 03-02-2016, 05:16 PM   #41
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Giles, we are past the point of who is at fault, let us see if we can fix it.

Have you got it out of the car?

Is the crack and seat fixed at this point, or should Vern look at it?

Let's get the old Girl Running.

Take a bunch of pictures.

Pull the pistons and rods out.
Herm.
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Old 03-02-2016, 09:04 PM   #42
Tom Wesenberg
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Yep, I'd like to see the pistons.
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:08 PM   #43
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Here are some of the pictures I took when it came in to Vern at Arnold Motors, in Fort Dodge, Iowa.

By the way, if you want perfect motor work done, send it to Vern. 800-765-2926, a little plug there for him. He gets engines from all over.

Herm.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, I wonder if Vern has a flunky assistant who does some of the work. The 59A engine in my '40 was done there about 7 or 8 years ago when my Dad still owned the car. It had noisy tappets from the get-go and the rear main pours out oil. I pulled the intake and found one tappet with about .023" clearance and some others at .017" and .018". Some valves are persistently sticking but that could be due to old gas before I replaced the gas tank. Anyway, it has to come apart again.
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:58 PM   #44
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Did you call Vern?

He has one assistant for about 30 years now, and I wish I knew as much as he did.

Nothing unusual about sticky valves in a flat head, especially new valves, and guides, and left to set for longer periods. Run some Mystery Oil through it.

Did your dad get hold of them at the time?

Herm.
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Old 03-03-2016, 02:23 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting View Post
Did you call Vern?

He has one assistant for about 30 years now, and I wish I knew as much as he did.

Nothing unusual about sticky valves in a flat head, especially new valves, and guides, and left to set for longer periods. Run some Mystery Oil through it.

Did your dad get hold of them at the time?

Herm.
I agree on the sticky valve cause. It has had lots of MM in the tank as well literally drowned with MM and left to sit, several times. It was soaked from both ends when the intake was off. The valves all open and close at cranking speeds so the compression is good and is equal on all cylinders, but it misses at any speed above idle and sometimes at idle, and puffs out the tailpipe as well. With good cranking compression and visual valve action, I can't see why valve lash should vary by over .011".
And no, Dad didn't go back to Arnold Motor Supply as near as I know. He dealt with the branch in Fairmont, MN and probably didn't feel like pulling the engine out again and sending it off. When he died going on six years ago at age 96 I tried finding his receipts but couldn't.
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Old 03-03-2016, 02:27 AM   #46
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I agree on the sticky valve cause. It has had lots of MM in the tank as well literally drowned with MM and left to sit, several times. It was soaked from both ends when the intake was off. The valves all open and close at cranking speeds so the compression is good and is equal on all cylinders, but it misses at any speed above idle and sometimes at idle, and puffs out the tailpipe as well. With good cranking compression and visual valve action, I can't see why valve lash should vary by over .011".
And no, Dad didn't go back to Arnold Motor Supply as near as I know. He dealt with the branch in Fairmont, MN and probably didn't feel like pulling the engine out again and sending it off. When he died going on six years ago at age 96 I tried finding his receipts but couldn't.
Oh, and I don't think the engine has even 2,000 miles on it since the rebuild, maybe closer to 1,000. Dad just drove it in parades and around the countryside occasionally.
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Old 03-03-2016, 12:22 PM   #47
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Mr. 40 Deluxe, I just got off the phone with Vern, and he said to get your dads name so he could see if they still had any record of the engine yet.

If also an address, at that time.

Bruce will be calling me also.

After though here, if the valves have .016 thousandths clearance, except one with .023, that wouldn't make them stick, or miss, and as you have all the same compression, it doesn't sound like valves to me, it sounds like spark to me, and a spark jumping where it should not, or something weak.

Verns number again. 800-765-2926
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Old 03-03-2016, 11:18 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting View Post
Mr. 40 Deluxe, I just got off the phone with Vern, and he said to get your dads name so he could see if they still had any record of the engine yet.

If also an address, at that time.

Bruce will be calling me also.

After though here, if the valves have .016 thousandths clearance, except one with .023, that wouldn't make them stick, or miss, and as you have all the same compression, it doesn't sound like valves to me, it sounds like spark to me, and a spark jumping where it should not, or something weak.

Verns number again. 800-765-2926
Herm, Thanks for your interest! I will try calling Vern in the AM. I just called to leave a message but no voice mail. I'm thinking one or more valves are sticking because at a fast idle (and sometimes normal idle) it will do the suck-a-shop-rag-up-the-tailpipe trick. This was common with 360 Dodge Magnum engines at the AZ Hiway Dept. where I worked. A Dodge 3/4 or 1 ton would come in with a miss and loss of power. I would walk to the back of the vehicle and hold a shop rag near the tailpipe and it would flutter in and out of the pipe. To prove to the boss it was valve seat recession I would pull a valve cover, pop off the rockers and lay a straight edge on the valve stems and it would teeter-totter on the high stem. Compression was low, too. Plus it's easy to hear, too.
By the way, I have the car in Arizona so I doubt anything could be done, but my Dad's name was Enoch Kittleson in Sherburn, MN.
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Old 03-04-2016, 09:24 AM   #49
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Default Re: Why did this rod fail?

Hi Gilitos, One thing here that is sure to generate some disagreement is the break-in procedure. I subscribe to the process of running the engine at a quick idle only (not a race!) until the engine gets no hotter than emitting the first evidence of steam vapors at the radiator. Then it is shut off and allowed to cool. This process is repeated until the engine will run without getting hot enough to emit steam vapors. Then the car is taken on drives not exceeding 40 mph with the same proviso: no steam coming from the radiator. The head is torqued down until it holds its setting.
T-bird, what am I missing here? Oil wells? Other than the fact that the bearings are shot, they don't look abnormal to me. Help me out...
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