Overflow tank

[Tiny]

Who runs an overflow tank? Will they work on a non pressurized system like our cars have? What did you use? Where/how did you mount it? I ask because my car pushes a fair amount of coolant out and the triple digits are on the way soon. I do not want to bend the overflow tube for fear of breakage and the nail trick will not work because somewhere along the line someone pinched the tube at the top making it impossible to put the nail in. I was thinking a plastic soda bottle wire tied to the backside of the axle. Anyone have a better idea?
As always Thanks

[Tom Wesenberg]

It sounds like your tubes may be blocked, as mine were last year. Rather than add an overflow tank, it would be better to make the radiator flow as it was designed to. Running 2 1/2 gallons of pure white vinegar for 30 days cleaned out my cooling system, so I no longer have coolant flowing out the overflow pipe. The top tank of the radiator is the expansion tank, and that's why the coolant only needs to be just above the tops of the tubes.

If you still choose to add an overflow tank, just run a rubber hose from the outlet of the overflow pipe to the bottom of any container. You can hang the container anywhere you please. The radiator cap must be sealed, or the vacuum from cooling won't pull the coolant back into the radiator.

The cheapest, easiest fix is the correct fix, which was cleaning with vinegar for me. 3 gallons of pure white vinegar only cost about $7.

[jkeesey]

get a really long hose and attach it to the end of the overflow and route it back up under the hood and into your container. That way it won't be so obvious your running the overflow.

[Tiny]

Tom
I did the vinegar trick. I only did it for a bit over a week but drove the car about 10 miles or more each day topping of with more vinegar. Lol my garage smelled like the Easter bunnies head quarters. Your right it is cheap. Even cheaper here at $1.75 a gallon. I back flushed it in the car and was there a lot of rust. I flushed till the water was clean. It still pushes out the water though.
JK
Where are you thinking of mounting it? I was thinking the backside of the axle so it is visable for me to watch. I could care less what others think.

[28ACoupe]

The Model A cooling system is a non-pressurized system. In order for a recovery tank to work, you need to convert it. You would do better to fix the problem and not cover it with a bandaid.

Also, if you are filling your radiator to the top, it will overflow until it reaches the proper level. Also, make sure the baffle is still in the top of the radiator or you will get overflow as well.

[Tiny]

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Yes the baffle is in there. I don't feel like I'm trying to band aide it. I'm actively try to solve the problem. The car doesn't overheat. I'm just worried come the 115+ temps we get here in the summer will be an issue

The top of the fins should be covered with water but how do you see through the baffle to be able to determine the level? When I fill it I just barely cover the baffle after say a 10 to 20 mile drive it takes about 3 to 4 cups of water to return it to this level. Am I just overfilling it?

[Tiny]

I'm also going to add a thermostat and temp gauge this weekend so I'll know what's going on more scientifically

[MAG]

Originally Posted by Tiny

I'm also going to add a thermostat and temp gauge this weekend so I'll know what's going on more scientifically

Good move, Tiny.
As others have said, the overflow tank is not needed. I installed them on two of my A's but removed them because, while they operated properly, they did not solve the problem. Both engines had new heads, water pumps, 4 row radiators and blocks clean. Water pumps were pumping water at a faster rate than the radiators could flow. Removing stock from the pump vanes solved the problem Yes, Texas has some 3 digit temps too.

[jkeesey]

I would mount the tank in the bottom drivers side corner of the radiator. As soon as you pop the hood there it is. On the back side of the axle you would still have to get on your hands and knees to see it properly. Just as easy to pop the hood, plus less strain on your knees.

[Tiny]

I have not put the splash pans on it yet so the axle is very visable right now

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by 28ACoupe

The Model A cooling system is a non-pressurized system. In order for a recovery tank to work, you need to convert it. . .

Not true. They work fine with a non-pressurized system and no special cap. You only need to have an air-tight seal on the radiator cap and run the existing overflow tube into the bottom of a container, below the reserve fluid level.

The system on my 160B works fine, I never have to add, nor never lose coolant. Of course, it is not a fix for other cooling problems or exhaust gas leaking into the cooling system. I have a 2" diameter x 15" tank and the level goes up/down about 2" between hot and cold. I need to paint it black.

[Tiny]

Mike
Do you have a pic? What did you use? How/where did you mount it?
Thanks

[Tom Wesenberg]

I had to remove my radiator, lay it flat, fill it with water, then dump it upside down about 4 times to remove all the rust flakes that were blocking the radiator tubes. I did this as the final cleaning step after running vinegar for 4 weeks. One week is not enough time. After 4 weeks I removed the water pump and shined a light back into the head. It looked very clean.

I would do this, because adding a tank won't stop the overflow due to blockage.

[Tiny]

Mike is that a speedway one? Did the holes line up with the rad shell mount holes. I've used those on other cars but not an A

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Mike is that a speedway one? Did the holes line up with the rad shell mount holes. I've used those on other cars but not an A

I did not like the screw-on cap of the speedway tank. (or their price!) Here's what it looks like: LINK Holes line up? Ha Ha Ha Ha. Keep dreaming. A real P.I.A. to re-design a suitable mounting system. Think chinese puzzle.

[roccaas]

I have the cheap plastic "box" style mounted to the firewall. Higher than the bottom end of the overflow outlet on the radiator. Tube runs from the radiator to the bottom of the overflow tank.

Has an overflow tube out of the top that drops down below the splash pans. I keep the tank about half full.

Previous owner used the car as his tourer, and had an old bleach bottle hanging from the radiator support rods--looked like a Farmer Fix!

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I've described my successful, SIMPLE, system in great detail, several times & NOBODY responded, either YAY or NAY! I'm too TIRED to type it AGAIN!! Bill W.

[Tiny]

Sorry Bill
I searched and didn't find your input. I'm sure your fix is a good one. Please share the wealth.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Sorry Bill
I searched and didn't find your input. I'm sure your fix is a good one. Please share the wealth.

Dog here,
Sorry, Tiny, Bill's gone to bed, he's kinda' KRANKY today, lots of stuff goin' on. A friend has serious problems. Buster T.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Tom,

In your reply no. 2, in your opinion, after witnessing what was removed with vinegar from your particular radiator, do you think your partial radiator blockage was caused by:

a) Mostly rust & less by water pump grease; or;
b) Mostly water pump grease & less by rust; or,
c) Close to 50/50 rust & grease?

[Tiny]

I think mostly rust. Not much grease that I could see. It left a serious rust stain on the gravel driveway next to my garage but I didn't see much evidence of grease.

[Tom Wesenberg]

My blockage was due to rust. I'm sure there was quite a buildup near the rear of the block, where it usually builds up. While driving down the freeway some of the built up rust broke loose and the large rust flakes block off the tubes until the antifreeze went out the overflow. A lot of those rust flakes were still laying on top of the tubes until I removed the radiator and backflushed it upside down 4 times.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Thanks very much Tiny & Tom.

I think your above detailed replies #21 & #22 are most helpful in giving new Model A owners some very specific information that radiator blockage can also be caused by rust particles.

In searching former posted radiator cleansing remedies for vintage radiator blockage on different vintage vehicle forums, the recommendation to add dish water soap such as Joy liquid, or Tide, or Prestone Radiator Flush, will assist in helping to remove grease, dirt, or mild scale; but, these additives wil not cure radiator rust blockage.

Last more expensive result is bringing the radiator to a radiator shop for cleansing & rodding out debris.

[Tiny]

Tom your original post on the vinegar was what gave me the idea/confidence to do the vinegar wash. Thank you.
Vinegar is like a miracle cure for lots of things. I use it to wash all my clothes, I add a cup to every load. It keeps color brighter and whites whiter!!
After reading your original post I figured a week would clean out a fair amount of the rust but hopefully not kill my water pump like yours. Haha jokes on me it's dripping now.
I was hoping not too have too pull the radiator till next winter, but with the pump leaking I guess the upside down flush is coming soon. I don't have a suitable core on hand but next week ill be at my dads for the holiday and build one there. He has a core fore me.

[Tom Wesenberg]

The vinegar only removed some of the grease from the water pump and made it drip. After the 30 day flush I regreased it and all is fine again. It does not leak one drip.

[ct1932ford]

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Mine, Old Squeeze soda bottle.

[Tiny]

Thats a clean mount ^^^. I tend to shy away from stuff like that as it always seems to rat roddy to me. That though is very clean. Good job!!!!!!!!!!

[Smurkey]

Mine would throw coolant all the time. Felt the face of the radiator after a run an felt cool spots which I attributed to blockage. Tried everything to "clean" it to no avail so eventually had it re-cored and now runs super cool and doesn't burp an ounce.

However, if I fill it too full it will spit til it reaches it's "happy place". Full is not the correct level...need some room for expansion.

Steve

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I encountered a man who had just bought an "A" & thought he need a NEW radiator, cause' that little tube under there drips a little water sometimes!!!
Why in Heavens name do some buy an "A" without researching or studying ANYTHING in advance???? Bill W.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

I encountered a man who had just bought an "A" & thought he need a NEW radiator, cause' that little tube under there drips a little water sometimes!!!
Why in Heavens name do some buy an "A" without researching or studying ANYTHING in advance???? Bill W.

The difference is when they do something like getting a new radiator instead of asking what is going on. Not knowing anything about an A is not the crime, doing something without checking first is the crime.

Another story, we have a new member of the club. He has the first car he ever bought, an A, he used to drive it all over but when the engine made noises and when he could afford another car he would only drive the A once in a while and finally he parked it and now wants to get it running again. We asked him how many times he adjusted the shims for the bearings, he said what shims? We convinced him to let us take a look at the engine before he sends it out for a rebuild.

[Tiny]

Ah Bill that's not me. I assure you. I'm just trying to learn from others mistakes. I'm not buying anything new just trying to keeps junk on the road.

[mrbillcars]

Just bought a `29 Model A and am trying to get used to the "Burp" overflow that happens every time I drive the car.
My system is Very Clean and runs clean antifreeze.
I was told by other Model A,ers that I need to get rid of the original "Honeycomb" radiator. It is original and flows very clean.
Is a new four core "brassworks" radiator the way to go?
My car also has a leakless water-pump on it, and some say I need a restrictor in the top hose.
If so what size does it need to be reduced to?
Also thinking about an overflow tank to reduce fluid loss.

[Tiny]

Welcome to the forum Mr. Bill I see this is your first post.

I've learned a lot more about my car since I started this post.

How do you know the radiator flows well?
Like others have said above try to fix things before you start buying things.
The radiator will find its own level. If the baffle is in the top tank you may not be able to see this level.
After I did a lot of vinegar work I put a thermostat and temp gauge in my car and it has been fine. A temp gauge gives lots of piece if mind. We regularly see triple temps in the summer at my end of California and my car does fine now. I do top it off from time to time but I it always takes about the same amount.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Yo, Other Bill,
Honeycomb radiators are SUPERB, if they're clean & open. They have a LOT of surface area to dissipate the heat.
Their only problem is that they CAN'T BE RODDED OUT, if they get plugged up bad.
Chrysler Corp. used them for MANY YEARS!
Bill W.

[Mitch//pa]

Welcome Bill
maybe its a simple fix like having the level set correctly.. it should only be filled to the level of the baffle inside the top tank..

[John Kuhnast]

Do as Tom W says. He has helped me manny times and he helped me on this also. I ran mine that way for over a month and what a bunch of junk came out. Car ran nice and cool after that and I run with only 2.5 gal.

[fiddlybits]

I have been using an overflow tank that I picked up at AutoZone for over a year and it has been great. Cost was $8 plus tax. ( http://www.autozone.com/heating-and-...estid=14691973 )

The install was simple as the hose that comes with the tank is just the right size to slip over the bottom of the overflow pipe on the radiator and long enough for me to hand the tank from the radiator support rod back by the firewall. This hose connects to the bottom of the tank. I also added an additional hose from the top of the tank that runs down the firewall to under the car. This is "just in case" the tank were to overflow it would not throw coolant all over the engine and starter.

I then changed the gasket in my moto-meter to an o-ring to make a positive seal and filled the radiator to the very top, removing all air in the system. (the system is still an open system as there is no restriction on the overflow tube)

As the system heats up the water expands into the tank and when the system cools down it sucks the coolant back into the radiator.

Although the tank is not visible unless you fold the hood back I have since painted all but a vertical stripe flat black, as well as the hoses. As long as I see that there is coolant in the tank I know the radiator is full.

[V4F]

had my radiator recored , flush it spring/fall . never overheats or overflows .

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by fiddlybits

I have been using an overflow tank that I picked up at AutoZone for over a year and it has been great. Cost was $8 plus tax. ( http://www.autozone.com/heating-and-...estid=14691973 )

The install was simple as the hose that comes with the tank is just the right size to slip over the bottom of the overflow pipe on the radiator and long enough for me to hand the tank from the radiator support rod back by the firewall. This hose connects to the bottom of the tank. I also added an additional hose from the top of the tank that runs down the firewall to under the car. This is "just in case" the tank were to overflow it would not throw coolant all over the engine and starter.

I then changed the gasket in my moto-meter to an o-ring to make a positive seal and filled the radiator to the very top, removing all air in the system. (the system is still an open system as there is no restriction on the overflow tube)

As the system heats up the water expands into the tank and when the system cools down it sucks the coolant back into the radiator.

Although the tank is not visible unless you fold the hood back I have since painted all but a vertical stripe flat black, as well as the hoses. As long as I see that there is coolant in the tank I know the radiator is full.

If you install, in the same manner, an Early VOLVO Expansion Tank, which has a 4 1/2 LB cap, "VOILLE, YOU HAVE AN INSTANT PRESSURIZED SYSTEM"
I've tiped this 17 times & NOBODY ever responded! (ONLY THE DOG)
Bill W.

[31Abone]

Put this turkey on my 30 CCPU..helped with overflow blowing on my motor and do not have to fill radiator every day. bot this on ebay 35 bucks.

[fiddlybits]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

If you install, in the same manner, an Early VOLVO Expansion Tank, which has a 4 1/2 LB cap, "VOILLE, YOU HAVE AN INSTANT PRESSURIZED SYSTEM"
I've tiped this 17 times & NOBODY ever responded! (ONLY THE DOG)
Bill W.

That's all well and good...but I didn't want a pressurized system as it has the original radiator, and although it is free flowing, it is obvious during cleaning that the metal is thin in spot. While this isn't a problem when there is no pressure, the minute it pressurizes I fear it will spring leaks.

[1931 flamingo]

Interesting fan belt on post #40.
Paul in CT

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Interesting fan belt on post #40.
Paul in CT

The first time I saw one of those belts was when I was about 5 years old. My dad had one to power his bench grinder. Harbor Freight sells them, but they aren't cheap.

[Karl]

On mine I had a problem with burping water out the overflow I fixed it by ensuring I had a tight cap and placed a 3lb release valve on the bottom of the radiator overflow pipe . Never really develops much pressure but never burps water anymore either -Karl

[TDO]

Originally Posted by MikeK

Not true. They work fine with a non-pressurized system and no special cap. You only need to have an air-tight seal on the radiator cap and run the existing overflow tube into the bottom of a container, below the reserve fluid level.

The system on my 160B works fine, I never have to add, nor never lose coolant. Of course, it is not a fix for other cooling problems or exhaust gas leaking into the cooling system. I have a 2" diameter x 15" tank and the level goes up/down about 2" between hot and cold. I need to paint it black.

Why are there 2 hoses

[MikeK]

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Originally Posted by TDO

Why are there 2 hoses

The second hose is the vent. Internally there is one short nipple and a longer vent tube.

[Bob Bidonde]

The overflow tank is a good idea because both my Model A's push some coolant out of the overflow. I am under the impression that all Model A's push some coolant out of the overflow when the engine is at cruising speed (50 to 60 mph).

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

THE ROOFING NAIL!
Bill W.

[GMCPASO]

Originally Posted by fiddlybits

I have been using an overflow tank that I picked up at AutoZone for over a year and it has been great. Cost was $8 plus tax. ( http://www.autozone.com/heating-and-...estid=14691973 )

The install was simple as the hose that comes with the tank is just the right size to slip over the bottom of the overflow pipe on the radiator and long enough for me to hand the tank from the radiator support rod back by the firewall. This hose connects to the bottom of the tank. I also added an additional hose from the top of the tank that runs down the firewall to under the car. This is "just in case" the tank were to overflow it would not throw coolant all over the engine and starter.

I then changed the gasket in my moto-meter to an o-ring to make a positive seal and filled the radiator to the very top, removing all air in the system. (the system is still an open system as there is no restriction on the overflow tube)

As the system heats up the water expands into the tank and when the system cools down it sucks the coolant back into the radiator.

Although the tank is not visible unless you fold the hood back I have since painted all but a vertical stripe flat black, as well as the hoses. As long as I see that there is coolant in the tank I know the radiator is full.

This works great. I put on years ago, set it on the firewall ledge of my 29 tudor. When engine cools, it draws it back into the radiator. I uses the radiator that came with the Model A, 32 years ago. I run a Snider 6.0 head, touring cam, inserted bearings, 3.54 rear end and curse at 50-55 mph. No problems. and runs about 170-180 on an average day. When it is 100+ F out side it runs about 190. What better could you ask.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

A simple/basic system like MikeK's will CONSTANTLY maintain a HIGHER level of water in the top tank & the GREATER VOLUME of water WILL aid in proper cooling. Water level "just to the top of the tubes" AIN'T ENOUGH!!---May as well jist PEE in the RADUMATOR, 3 TIMES A WEEK! AND, be sure to drink plenty of JET-FUEL COFFEE!
My health freak friends---"Bill, be sure to drink PLENTY of WATER"---"Do you think I'm STUPID"??---That's why I LOVE my Dog, he doesn't say STUPID things!
POOR design, is the CULPRIT, if it would have worked as intended, engine would have warmed up, water would expand, push out the excess & level would have STAYED at the top of the overflow tube. On cool down, water contracted & dropped BELOW the overflow tube. On next start up, water expanded & would have been to the top of the overflow tube, again.
BUT, due to swirling & splash over, the design FAILED. THEN, the onslaught of baffles, bend this, curve this, etc, ALL BANDAIDS! The Nail helps more than any of these. SHURE CURE: a 160 thermostat & a simple recovery tank! A Mechanic for Navajo Truck Lines invented the tanks, to keep their trucks cool, on OLD HIGHWAY 66.--I once tiped the WHOLE story about it. Try SEARCH.
Bill W.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

A simple/basic system like MikeK's will CONSTANTLY maintain a HIGHER level of water in the top tank & the GREATER VOLUME of water WILL aid in proper cooling. Water level "just to the top of the tubes" AIN'T ENOUGH!!---May as well jist PEE in the RADUMATOR, 3 TIMES A WEEK! AND, be sure to drink plenty of JET-FUEL COFFEE!
My health freak friends---"Bill, be sure to drink PLENTY of WATER"---"Do you think I'm STUPID"??---That's why I LOVE my Dog, he doesn't say STUPID things!
POOR design, is the CULPRIT, if it would have worked as intended, engine would have warmed up, water would expand, push out the excess & level would have STAYED at the top of the overflow tube. On cool down, water contracted & dropped BELOW the overflow tube. On next start up, water expanded & would have been to the top of the overflow tube, again.
BUT, due to swirling & splash over, the design FAILED. THEN, the onslaught of baffles, bend this, curve this, etc, ALL BANDAIDS! The Nail helps more than any of these. SHURE CURE: a 160 thermostat & a simple recovery tank! A Mechanic for Navajo Truck Lines invented the tanks, to keep their trucks cool, on OLD HIGHWAY 66.--I once tiped the WHOLE story about it. Try SEARCH.
Bill W.

Hi Bill.


Thanks for the great explanation. A little theory and a lot of common sense that I was unaware of.


Just to be sure I understand - Sounds like you are in favor of running with a thermostat with bypass and an overflow?

[Mad Mac]

The very first cars to use overflow tanks were Model Ts and Model As used by Ralph Bagnold and others in the exploration of the Libyan desert - see my "Libyan Sands" post elsewhere in this forum. This link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1HH...ature=youtu.be

will take you to Bagnold's 1930 movie footage where you can clearly see the hose protruding from the radiator cap of his Model A cars and the collecting-can on the running board. Bagnold has been credited with inventing the idea, but it was actually first used on Model T's in the desert during WW1.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by Mad Mac

The very first cars to use overflow tanks were Model Ts and Model As used by Ralph Bagnold and others in the exploration of the Libyan desert - see my "Libyan Sands" post elsewhere in this forum. This link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1HH...ature=youtu.be

will take you to Bagnold's 1930 movie footage where you can clearly see the hose protruding from the radiator cap of his Model A cars and the collecting-can on the running board. Bagnold has been credited with inventing the idea, but it was actually first used on Model T's in the desert during WW1.

Click on the link and U-tube says the video does not exist

[Mad Mac]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Click on the link and U-tube says the video does not exist

Sorry, It certainly does exist, but i can't make that link work now.
Cheers,
Mac

[burner31]

This link seems to work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1HHMrp07tE