scale modeling project - research underway

[s.e.charles]

if this is annoying, please read no further.

i want to build a 1:24 scale air compressor & water pump, both powered x a model A four cylinder engine.

Q: how would the coupling be made from the banger transmission to the two devices?

Q: could there be, perhaps using the factory transmission, a transfer case that would allow power to be used driving one or both pump & compressor.

Q: would the engine be powerful (in the real world) enough to serve both?

the entire assembly will be installed on a reinforced '28 Ford A chassis.

i am only interested in creating a plausible model. if a 1:1 has never been made, there's probably good reason!

thanks

[jwmckenzie]

interesting project. Are you using a 1:24 scale Model A engine?

There were plenty of Model A engines used for industrial purposes, most notably Combines. They drove directly off the Flywheel, used a different bell housing, no transmission, and a pulley to a belt drive. They had governors to manage the power.

There were Model A engines used for air compressors. They ran off of two cylinders and the other two pumped air. Look up Gordon Smith compressors.

These engines were also turned around and drove propellers for airplanes. Look up "Pietenpol air camper".

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by s.e.charles

if this is annoying, please read no further.

i want to build a 1:24 scale air compressor & water pump, both powered x a model A four cylinder engine.

Q: how would the coupling be made from the banger transmission to the two devices?

Q: could there be, perhaps using the factory transmission, a transfer case that would allow power to be used driving one or both pump & compressor.

Q: would the engine be powerful (in the real world) enough to serve both?

the entire assembly will be installed on a reinforced '28 Ford A chassis.

i am only interested in creating a plausible model. if a 1:1 has never been made, there's probably good reason!

thanks

I realize you are saying you would like to build to 1:24 scale, -however if 1:20th scale would work for you, then I would look at retrofitting a Hubley or Scale Model-A kit which would let you cannibalize the kit and use the diecast pieces such as frame, front axle, etc.

If none of that works, then consider drawing it in SolidWorks or Fusion 360, and then 3D printing the pieces you need. As mentioned above, a Gordon Smith conversion for a Model-A was likely the most popular air compressor conversion from the era. Look HERE to see what it would have looked like if you are unfamiliar with it.

As far as a water pump, I would Google Ford Model-A Stationary Engine or Ford Model-A Power Unit and see if that gives you any ideas.

[Joe K]

I own the Gordon-Smith conversion and in reality its kind of "boring" in execution. Consider a pipe from center top of the head connected to an air tank - that's all you see.

Now I have seen various "Ingersoll Rand" engine driven compressors. Many of these were used in the construction of the various western Dams. Mostly they consist of a four wheeled "tow" unit usually with the radiator at one end - and the Air tank at the other. The compressors were typically physically about the size of the engine used.



To the connection between operating units - above seems to be either a shroud or belt drive. But I could imagine a sort of "chain connection" which is not a chain drive, but the chain tends to encircle two gears on the two components and serves simply to provide some degree of "flexible joint" between the two units. Today's version at the link below.

https://www.grainger.com/category/po...hain-couplings

One of the component pieces sold I see is a "cover" - probably to keep fingers out and the chain clean and lubricated. This cover would make modelling easy.

While Ingersoll Rand produced these "dedicated units" in quantity, its hard to imagine that someone - somewhere would not have cobbled together something similar using a Model T or Model A engine.

Off-hand I don't remember any documentation of industrial units in the scads of books about the Model A. Even Combine information is a little scarce and mostly found on the Internet.

Kingston, Hoof, or Pierce governors were essential in most of these applications.

Smaller 1927 IR/Waukesha compressor unit seen at https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/fa...le-compressor/


Joe K

[Bruce of MN]

The internals of the Smith compressor are interesting, see pix.

Regarding the coupling, these allow some misalignment: https://www.mcmaster.com/products/lovejoy-couplings/

[s.e.charles]

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Originally Posted by jwmckenzie

interesting project. Are you using a 1:24 scale Model A engine?

There were plenty of Model A engines used for industrial purposes, most notably Combines. They drove directly off the Flywheel, used a different bell housing, no transmission, and a pulley to a belt drive. They had governors to manage the power.

There were Model A engines used for air compressors. They ran off of two cylinders and the other two pumped air. Look up Gordon Smith compressors.

These engines were also turned around and drove propellers for airplanes. Look up "Pietenpol air camper".

i had completely forgotten about the Pietenpol. yes; i 1:24 scale Revell engine & '28 Ford pickup chassis. it will be intended for towing behind, so the running gear will need some modification.
i did cross paths with the Smiths compressors but as yet have not dug into their workings.
thanks for the farm equipment reference. mining applications have also surface.
for the immediate future, i'm organizing links and then will begin taking copious notes for construction.

thanks again,

sid

[s.e.charles]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I realize you are saying you would like to build to 1:24 scale, -however if 1:20th scale would work for you, then I would look at retrofitting a Hubley or Scale Model-A kit which would let you cannibalize the kit and use the diecast pieces such as frame, front axle, etc.

If none of that works, then consider drawing it in SolidWorks or Fusion 360, and then 3D printing the pieces you need. As mentioned above, a Gordon Smith conversion for a Model-A was likely the most popular air compressor conversion from the era. Look HERE to see what it would have looked like if you are unfamiliar with it.

As far as a water pump, I would Google Ford Model-A Stationary Engine or Ford Model-A Power Unit and see if that gives you any ideas.

thanks for the good suggestions. i model Gn15 and most guys freely interchange close scales. because of my life long interest in automobile modeling, i'm a bit adherent to the 1:24-25 school.

when i was about 8, Santa brought me a Hubley kit. dad gave me a triangular scraper, and the flash kept me busy until Little League baseball started in the spring!

if i were to need and industrial sized piece of plant, i would not hesitate to start with the Hubley kit for strength & stability and freely switch parts with styrene or resin to suit. for the most part, i'm a scratchbuilder and use a variety of mediums.

i will search the link & terms you suggested as i am becoming painfully aware of how much i don't know about this subject.

appreciate your help,

sid

[s.e.charles]

Originally Posted by Joe K

I own the Gordon-Smith conversion and in reality its kind of "boring" in execution. Consider a pipe from center top of the head connected to an air tank - that's all you see.

Now I have seen various "Ingersoll Rand" engine driven compressors. Many of these were used in the construction of the various western Dams. Mostly they consist of a four wheeled "tow" unit usually with the radiator at one end - and the Air tank at the other. The compressors were typically physically about the size of the engine used.



To the connection between operating units - above seems to be either a shroud or belt drive. But I could imagine a sort of "chain connection" which is not a chain drive, but the chain tends to encircle two gears on the two components and serves simply to provide some degree of "flexible joint" between the two units. Today's version at the link below.

https://www.grainger.com/category/po...hain-couplings

One of the component pieces sold I see is a "cover" - probably to keep fingers out and the chain clean and lubricated. This cover would make modelling easy.

While Ingersoll Rand produced these "dedicated units" in quantity, its hard to imagine that someone - somewhere would not have cobbled together something similar using a Model T or Model A engine.

Off-hand I don't remember any documentation of industrial units in the scads of books about the Model A. Even Combine information is a little scarce and mostly found on the Internet.

Kingston, Hoof, or Pierce governors were essential in most of these applications.

Smaller 1927 IR/Waukesha compressor unit seen at https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/fa...le-compressor/...

thanks for all of the thoughts. i am starting to pick up common traits for these units and those will be the things i focus on first. yes; the running gear will be modified on the model to be strictly a tow piece of plant. some resin model A wheels & tires from Replicas & Miniatures of Maryland (Norm Veber) is actually the impetus which got me started on this endeavor. i've had (2) sets of them for about 10 years and figured it was time to do something with them.

i will investigate the links you provided, but somehow i think the Gas Engine site is going to take up a bit of my time ...

[s.e.charles]

Originally Posted by Bruce of MN

The internals of the Smith compressor are interesting, see pix.

Regarding the coupling, these allow some misalignment: https://www.mcmaster.com/products/lovejoy-couplings/

i've heard about the division of cylinder work and am still trying to get a clear understanding of how this can be, so your photo and links are helpful.

love Carr-McMaster. feels like going to church every time i place an order. only a couple of times a year, but it is uplifting to the soul to know they are there. (church, too)

thanks for the encouraging information.

[Joe K]

The Gordon-Smith adaptation is INTERESTING.

Capable of about 40 SCFM, the unit could drive a paving breaker, and do sandblasting up to about a quarter inch nozzle. My unit was formerly owned by a gentleman who did gravestones - and used a sandblaster to cut the lettering.

The Model B was the engine of production when these were actually made by Gordon-Smith using surplus engine product from Ford. The compressor head was configured to use a three bolt Model B water pump. The usual unit used a Pierce governor which was driven by a specially configured attachment that replaced the Timing Gear small cover. Some units were provided with Hoof governors - these were belt driven IIRC.

MANY people bought the "kit" to convert a Model A or B engine. Gordon-Smith provided full directions on where to cut a Model A (B) frame and cowl to make the tow-around unit.

Curiously the cross-trailer air tank is made from two 100 gallon propane tanks - but the tanks are seemingly "ASME Stamped" after their bottoms are cut off and welded together to make a single tank.

Unloaders and a "knock-down" system were provided and although I can't recall the Unloader brand name, they can still be bought at McMaster-Carr.

When in operation and unloaded, the trailer mounted unit moves up and down slightly on its springs (usually 2 - trailer) and makes a unique "whoosha-woosha" sound.

The units are seen on Craigslist occasionally and usually sell in the $300 range. Think price of a well worn but operable Model A engine. The usual modus at the time was to replace one's automobile engine for a rebuilt Allstate engine, and relegate the worn engine to the "occasional but not critical use" of an air compressor. Which is where they're usually found today.


Joe K

[s.e.charles]

good stuff all. i hadn't thought about suspension figuring it could take a hard ride but you've provoked me to crawl under and give things another look-over.

Q: would there need to be the same amount of travel as the chassis with a full body plus people & baggage load, or could i get by with something a little less elaborate?

for pulling, i assumed a swivel at the center of the front crossmember would be okay with the tie rod fixed with the wheels pointing straight. the unit would be towed with a A shaped tongue attached to the tow vehicle.

i don't know if the tow bar gets attached to the frame of the towed vehicle or should be connected to the front axle.

[Bruce of MN]

This Smith Compressor article may be of interest:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L5n...ew?usp=sharing

[s.e.charles]

holy smokes!

"... may be of interest . . ."

pretty much designs my entire project!

thank you so much. between the article & your avatar, i should be able to start building immediately.

very much appreciated.

sid

[Bruce of MN]

I guess we should start negotiating my share of the royalties!

[s.e.charles]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

. . . a Gordon Smith conversion for a Model-A was likely the most popular air compressor conversion from the era. Look HERE to see what it would have looked like if you are unfamiliar with it.

As far as a water pump, I would Google Ford Model-A Stationary Engine or Ford Model-A Power Unit and see if that gives you any ideas.

i am finally getting the time to study these pictures and find them invaluable in getting the top end of the engine detailed correctly.

thanks again for heading me in the right direction!

[s.e.charles]

Originally Posted by Bruce of MN

I guess we should start negotiating my share of the royalties!

as they say "the check is in the mail".

fortunately, my gratitude has greater market value.

[Kurt in NJ]

Ford made industrial engine units, locally there was one connected by belting off a shaft connecting to 4 compressor units and a 110 volt generator to run lights all on a trailer , it was the size of a minivan
There were also boat conversion transmissions and big irrigation pumps, the farmer made things usually used mostly salvaged parts from old cars,trucks and farm implements
My smiths compressor is on a rambler torque tube axle I salvaged out of a car in the woods

[johnneilson]

There is a thread over on the hamb site
Banger November monthly thread
There is a link to 3d cad models
J

[s.e.charles]

thanks guys.

K in NJ - no question when this model gets done, it Will look like a farmer made it! i just want it to look like he made it so it would actually work!

johnn - i posted the same query in the HAMB forum because sometimes i will get really good information. mostly i get razzed, but that's a chance i'm willing to take. i had not checked there for the past few days. those drawings are helpful for someone mechanically challenged like myself and the complete modeled engine is superb.

Q: if Ford engine green a readily named color, or does everyone mix their own in hopes of being the closest match?

i've always called it "Coke bottle green" but somehow there must be a better name than that!

thanks again,

sid