Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-04-2012, 02:33 AM   #1
Hotrodfil
Senior Member
 
Hotrodfil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 213
Default Close ratio gears

Popped over to Belcher Engineering here in the UK on the way home to ask about a set of close ratio gears for my Fordor.

They manufacture two types of close ratio gears for the Model A gearbox with gears made from EN36 steel, case hardened and run on needle bearings. Straight cut, no synchro just like stock only far better ratios.

Ratios:-
20 Tooth to 27 Tooth
1st 2.2 to 1
2nd 1.3 to 1
3rd 1 to 1

18 Tooth to 29 Tooth
1st 2.59 to 1
2nd 1.55 to 1
3rd 1 to 1

I run the 2nd set behind a B engine in my Tourer and they shift lovely. They currently have six sets of blanks on the shelf so if there's enough interest they'll run a batch off.

They also have a couple of F head kits for sale if anyone is interested.



Hotrodfil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 04:03 AM   #2
juke joint johnny
Senior Member
 
juke joint johnny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: London England
Posts: 908
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Thats some engine you have there Phill !! I bet that car really moves
I know Gary and old Brian Belcher they do very Good work.
They also design and make parts not just import them from somewhere else .

I see from your Avatar your a Rock & Roller Do you go to the Rhytm Riot or the Rockabilly Rave ? Maybe I'll see your car there one day !!

John Cochran
juke joint johnny is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-04-2012, 04:26 AM   #3
Juggler
Senior Member
 
Juggler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Phoenix AZ/Bath UK
Posts: 481
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Happy Birthday Phil - buy yourself a present?

Cheers

Juggs
Juggler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 05:59 AM   #4
Hotrodfil
Senior Member
 
Hotrodfil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 213
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Not my engine I'm afraid - although I do have a head to fit sometime to a diamond B block that needs... everything.

Buy myself a present? Yup. One new hub seal...
Hotrodfil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 06:18 AM   #5
2manycars
Senior Member
 
2manycars's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern CT
Posts: 2,732
Default Re: Close ratio gears

What are the stock original ratios? What is the cost of these new gears?
2manycars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 06:49 AM   #6
Hotrodfil
Senior Member
 
Hotrodfil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 213
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Ballpark figure is around £200 more than new stock gears.
Standard ratios are... awful.
From the Macs spec page.
High-1:1
2nd-6.89:1
Low-8.75:1
Hotrodfil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 07:21 AM   #7
Napa Skip
Senior Member
 
Napa Skip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Napa CA
Posts: 412
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Standard
1st 3.12:1
2nd 1.85:1
3rd 1:1
__________________
Skip Keyser
Napa Valley A's
Olympic Vintage Auto Club (1980-1982)
MARC of San Diego (1977-1978)
MAFCA (since 1978)
MARC (since 1977)
----------
Model A owners belong in their Model A’s; Model A’s belong on the road.
Napa Skip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 07:29 AM   #8
George Miller
Senior Member
 
George Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 2,975
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Interesting steering box mod. I did a similar thing with the box on my roadster when I put the flat head V8 in. The only different is that the block is mounted on the out side of the frame instead of the top.
George Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 07:55 AM   #9
Hotrodfil
Senior Member
 
Hotrodfil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 213
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Napa Skip View Post
Standard
1st 3.12:1
2nd 1.85:1
3rd 1:1
Didn't think the Macs specs seemed right...!
Hotrodfil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 08:53 AM   #10
Napa Skip
Senior Member
 
Napa Skip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Napa CA
Posts: 412
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodfil View Post
Didn't think the Macs specs seemed right...!
I first noted these specs (6.9:1 and 8.75:1) in "Model A Specifications" on pages 30 thru 33 of the May-June 1988 issue of "The Restorer" (MAFCA), subsequently included in Volume V (pages 10-13) of "How To Restore Your Model A" so they seem to have a life of their own. However, I believe the 1.85:1 and 3.12:1 are more accurate.

Final drive gear ratios for transmissions such as are found in the Model A, are calculated as the ratio of the output gear (diameter or number of teeth) to the input gear, or where there are multiple gear engagements (such as in first and second gear) the product of such ratios and are expressed as the ratio of the number of input shaft revolutions required to give 1 revolution of the output shaft.

Thus, for first gear, where the 16-tooth input shaft drives the 31-tooth gear on the cluster gear, and where the 18-tooth cluster gear then drives the 29-tooth low/reverse sliding gear, the number of input shaft revolutions to give 1 output shaft revolution is given by 31/16 x 29/18 = 3.12 (rounded down). Consequently, first gear is said to be 3.12:1.

Similarly, second gear, where the 16-tooth input shaft drives the 31-tooth gear on the cluster gear, and where the 24-tooth cluster gear then drives the 23-tooth second/high sliding gear, the ratio is given by 31/16 x 23/24 = 1.86 (rounded up), giving the 1.86:1 (sometimes seen as 1.85:1) second gear ratio.

For third gear, the forward portion of the second/high sliding gear internal teeth engage with the after portion of the input shaft external teeth and neither the low/reverse nor the second/high sliding gears otherwise engage with the cluster gear (which keeps spinning due to its permanent engagement with the input shaft). The after portion of the second/high sliding gear remains splined to the output shaft and consequently the output shaft is driven with no gear reduction and the final 1:1 “ratio” is achieved.

Reverse is the product of three ratios, inasmuch as the 16-tooth input shaft drives the 31-tooth gear on the cluster gear, the 15-tooth gear on the cluster gear drives the 18-tooth reverse idler gear, and the 18-tooth reverse idler gear drives the 29-tooth low/reverse sliding gear, giving a 3.75:1 reverse gear ratio.

Probably more than is needed for this discussion…

Model A Transmission.jpg
__________________
Skip Keyser
Napa Valley A's
Olympic Vintage Auto Club (1980-1982)
MARC of San Diego (1977-1978)
MAFCA (since 1978)
MARC (since 1977)
----------
Model A owners belong in their Model A’s; Model A’s belong on the road.

Last edited by Napa Skip; 10-06-2012 at 10:59 AM. Reason: add reverse gear info
Napa Skip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 09:41 AM   #11
Jim Brierley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 4,066
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Who made the F-head conversion?
Jim Brierley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 12:21 PM   #12
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Largo Florida
Posts: 7,225
Default Re: Close ratio gears

That is great info, thanks.. I was considering a Mitchell but was concerned of cost of especially quality.. I'm not crazy about the stock ratios and the English and Chinese[ Mitchell] options seem interesting..
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 03:17 PM   #13
Juggler
Senior Member
 
Juggler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Phoenix AZ/Bath UK
Posts: 481
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Brierley View Post
Who made the F-head conversion?
Belchers own

http://www.belcherengineering.co.uk/speedster/index.php

I'm still looking for that BF cam Mr B. Will pass on to Sammy at Arizona Model A if I find before Dad and I come back in November

Cheers

Andrew

(The Limeys at Don's)
Juggler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 08:24 PM   #14
2manycars
Senior Member
 
2manycars's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern CT
Posts: 2,732
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Thanks for the info. 200 pounds over new standard gears is a lot just to get a better first and second. I put a mitchell overdrive in Barry's coupe, and while the cost is quite high, it was a nice addition to the car. I looked into a Laycock overdrive, but it requires 12 volts, and my cars are 6. Still undecided what to do. I have a set of 3.27:1 rear end gears I could put in the coupe. According to my crummy math skills, the mitchell makes a 3.78:1 rear gear about 3.00:1 in overdrive. Barry's coupe ran fine in most circumstances when just left in overdrive, but it was nice to have the stock low gear for parades.
2manycars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 11:49 PM   #15
Charlie Stephens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 7,017
Default Re: Close ratio gears

The syncro gears from Mitchell Manufacturing are a better ratio. Has anybody had any experience with their syncro gears?

Charlie Stephens
Charlie Stephens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 07:55 AM   #16
2manycars
Senior Member
 
2manycars's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern CT
Posts: 2,732
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens View Post
The syncro gears from Mitchell Manufacturing are a better ratio. Has anybody had any experience with their syncro gears?

Charlie Stephens
There is an old guy near here that has that mitchell setup and he likes it. I have not driven the car.
2manycars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 11:26 AM   #17
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Largo Florida
Posts: 7,225
Default Re: Close ratio gears

The last I spoke with the folks at Mitchell, there were 3 ratio options which I thought was nice.. I was wondering about quality since its chinese.. Mitchell said they have had no issues ,, but,, I've heard some have had problems..
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 11:56 AM   #18
Bruce Lancaster
Member Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Madison, NJ
Posts: 5,230
Default Re: Close ratio gears

FWIW...I'll post some of the ratios that can be attained using Model B trans case or V8 '32-48 cases.
The 28 and 29 tooth ones (teeth counted at front of cluster) are both very common V8 Ford ratios, the 25 and 26 tooth ones are from 1940's V12 Lincolns and are fairly pricey.

All ratios courtesy of my 50 or 60 year old Iskenderian "Dream Wheel", a little circular slide rule that can compute speed versus tire and gear possibilities.


29 tooth 3.11 1.770 1.00
28 tooth 2.82 1.607 1.00
26 tooth 2.327 1.576 1.00
25 tooth 2.12 1.435 1.00

The Lincoln gearsets were meant to be used with very low R&P and overdrive of about .70 ratio.
Bruce Lancaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 02:16 PM   #19
quickchange
Senior Member
 
quickchange's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Nelson. New Zealand
Posts: 1,999
Default Re: Close ratio gears

I have a Mitchell trans plus O/D in my slant screen we inported & like it very much, One can shift more quickly with the shorter throw, plus the taller ratios make it more like a B trans , coupled with the O/D its a nice driver, Expensive set up but the vehicle came that way, Love my O/Drive, Derek spring is here, swap meets & Speedway . 45 years sunday wedding aniversary,
quickchange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 12:19 AM   #20
columbiA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 1,746
Default Re: Close ratio gears

I have 2 Columbia O/D,s that I modified to fit my "A",s and I love them.One has been in use since 1960 & the other I modified a few years ago.Both have 4.11 gears & 2.94 in O/D. 1st & 2nd in O/D are great ratios too.
columbiA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 04:02 PM   #21
SteveB31
Senior Member
 
SteveB31's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Englewood, Colorado
Posts: 1,372
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Are you guys suggesting that the Mitchell gears are Chinese made?
SteveB31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 04:10 PM   #22
miss victoria
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 310
Default Re: Close ratio gears

for a little more put in a ford 3 speed + OD full syncromesh and bolts right in.
miss victoria is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-06-2012, 08:38 PM   #23
Roger V
Senior Member
 
Roger V's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,593
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens View Post
The syncro gears from Mitchell Manufacturing are a better ratio. Has anybody had any experience with their syncro gears?

Charlie Stephens
I have two of their transmissions, but only one installed. They are "supposed to" have the 15% better 1st. and 2nd. gears. I can't tell that much difference, though I really like the synchro. My wife does even more so.
Roger V is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 01:35 AM   #24
Hotrodfil
Senior Member
 
Hotrodfil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 213
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by juke joint johnny View Post
I see from your Avatar your a Rock & Roller Do you go to the Rhytm Riot or the Rockabilly Rave ? Maybe I'll see your car there one day !!

Hi John - I've been along a couple of times but I actually play in a bluegrass band. The avatar was from a wedding we played...

www.themharveyboys.co.uk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reu_OeCa6oI
Hotrodfil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 02:22 AM   #25
Hotrodfil
Senior Member
 
Hotrodfil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 213
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Tried out the close ratio gears on the track at the weekend. Behind about an estimated 70 horses of banger they performed well - although at Prescott hill climb I did have to keep grabbing top (easy) and crashing back down into 2nd for the hairpins (easy enough but a crash...).

I do like the lack of synchro - it gives it a more vintage car feel. From what I gather, Mitchell don't recommend their synchro conversions for anything more than the standard horsepower?

Hotrodfil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 08:02 AM   #26
MikeK
Senior Member
 
MikeK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Windy City
Posts: 2,919
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
[QUOTE=Hotrodfil;513226]T. . . From what I gather, Mitchell don't recommend their synchro conversions for anything more than the standard horsepower?

To make room to synch 2 & 3 (1st is not synchro) Mitchell had to get room somewhere. The gears are narrower than stock. That said, I know several guys with 80+HP in front of a Mitchell. You just can't pop the clutch or slam gears.
MikeK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 09:33 AM   #27
Marco Tahtaras
Senior Member
 
Marco Tahtaras's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,099
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodfil View Post

I do like the lack of synchro - it gives it a more vintage car feel.
I like the idea of more useful first and second gear ratios but have no interest in syncros. I've driven A's with V8 gear boxes and it's unnatural and just not fun for me.
__________________
http://www.abarnyard.com/
Marco Tahtaras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 12:32 PM   #28
Bruce Lancaster
Member Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Madison, NJ
Posts: 5,230
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Anybody with a strong loathing of unsynchronized shifting should, before spending a lot, have a ride with someone who enjoys them...the education is not necessarily going to be successful for everyone because it involves developing a sort of Zen One-with-the-transmission feel, but I'm sure many could learn this and enjoy it. It is possible for many to develop a very close feel for gear speeds and of throttle openings that put engaged gears into a sort of floating state.
Bruce Lancaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 01:51 PM   #29
Napa Skip
Senior Member
 
Napa Skip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Napa CA
Posts: 412
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Kind of a Zen and the Art of Model A Transmission Shifting (with apologies to Robert M. Pirsig).

“Is it hard? Not if you have the right attitude.” Robert M. Pirsig
__________________
Skip Keyser
Napa Valley A's
Olympic Vintage Auto Club (1980-1982)
MARC of San Diego (1977-1978)
MAFCA (since 1978)
MARC (since 1977)
----------
Model A owners belong in their Model A’s; Model A’s belong on the road.
Napa Skip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 02:22 PM   #30
Hotrodfil
Senior Member
 
Hotrodfil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 213
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Changing down on the road is normally quite easy. Need to practice at speed...
I normally run my flattie powered 24T at Prescott in 2nd gear - 3.54 rear end, '39 box, 5.50 x 16 tyres.

With the Tourer - 3.27 rear end and 4.75 x 19 tyres I had to change in to top before reaching the hairpins.

Best time in the V8 powered modified 61.63, highest speed at the 'bridge' (pretty much a straight charge from the line) 51mph.

Best time in the Tourer - 71.01, highest speed at the 'bridge' 44mph in second gear. So I'm quite happy comparing me, with me.

Last edited by Hotrodfil; 10-09-2012 at 02:32 PM.
Hotrodfil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 03:19 AM   #31
Hotrodfil
Senior Member
 
Hotrodfil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 213
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Number crunching.
Been looking at the results from Prescott hillclimb online and doing some online calcs.

Oh yes. Sensibly (not) I seem to build cars with no gauges. Saves all that worrying looking down at the dashboard. Cane it till it bursts and change up. Thought I'd work out the revs the poor old dear was doing as she flapped her skirts under the bridge at Prescott.

44mph, 1.55:1 second gear, 3.27 final drive, 29.8" tyres - 2514 rpm. Hmmm - sounded like more! Tailed off a little - it felt like there was more but didn't want to burst it!

Driving along the Buckingham bypass on the way home and opened her up a bit...

68mph (sat nav), 1:1 top gear - 2507 rpm. Bottom screen rattled loose (hadn't tightened it up after taking the top screen out at the track), blew innards and plunged cold air onto my tootsies, so we backed off a bit.

Rolling along easily most of the time around 55-60mph and it turns out the ol' banger is turning between 2000-2200 rpm which is reasonable for a babbit bottom end.

More than chuffed. Winter time will hopefully see a full pressure shell bottom end model-A engine under the bonnet as a comparison.
Hotrodfil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 05:56 AM   #32
2manycars
Senior Member
 
2manycars's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern CT
Posts: 2,732
Default Re: Close ratio gears

So when all is said and done, do you like the 3.27:1 gear set? I was thinking of installing them in my coupe when I rebuild the motor. The alternative is a mitchell overdrive, which is quite pricey.
2manycars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 06:29 AM   #33
Hotrodfil
Senior Member
 
Hotrodfil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 213
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Like the 3.27's? Yup. Coupled with the close ratio gears it works a treat.
The tourer is a bit lighter than the Fordor but that's handles a 3.54 set with the standard transmission ratios with aplomb.
Hotrodfil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 11:58 AM   #34
Hotrodfil
Senior Member
 
Hotrodfil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 213
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Video between the hairpins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abgKF6yfHho
Hotrodfil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2020, 10:47 PM   #35
M2M
Senior Member
 
M2M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia/USA/EU/Soviet Russia
Posts: 1,105
Question Re: Close ratio gears

Are these close ratio gears still available?
__________________

M2M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2020, 12:33 AM   #36
Ruth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Glide, Oregon
Posts: 1,334
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick L. View Post
That is great info, thanks.. I was considering a Mitchell but was concerned of cost of especially quality.. I'm not crazy about the stock ratios and the English and Chinese[ Mitchell] options seem interesting..
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveB31 View Post
Are you guys suggesting that the Mitchell gears are Chinese made?
Are Mitchell gears Chinese? I never heard of this before reading this 8 yo thread?
Ruth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2020, 07:51 AM   #37
M2M
Senior Member
 
M2M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia/USA/EU/Soviet Russia
Posts: 1,105
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by M2M View Post
Are these close ratio gears still available?

Anyone know?
__________________

M2M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2020, 10:19 AM   #38
Ernie Vitucci
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 611
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Good Morning...I have had a Mitchell Overdrive in our 1931 Tudor for 15 years and it has performed perfectly and I really love having two gear ranges to work with. Here in the Desert it is pretty flat and the high end 3rd over is great. The mountains around the 'Valley of the Sun' would challenge a mountain goat, and going up the mountain to Payson, I tend to use 1-2-3 and 2nd over and 3rd over...Ernie in Arizona
Ernie Vitucci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2020, 09:14 AM   #39
M2M
Senior Member
 
M2M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia/USA/EU/Soviet Russia
Posts: 1,105
Default Re: Close ratio gears

Below is all they have left:

20/27 ratio new £785.00
20/27 ratio used £400.00
__________________

M2M is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:48 PM.