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04-15-2014, 09:59 AM | #21 | |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
Quote:
Agree that the seal at the front of the torque tube is fitted with the open side or lip towards the UJ. That's a lesson learnt for me, when I replaced the one on Old Rusty years ago I put it the other way around without even thinking about it. Mart. Last edited by Mart; 04-15-2014 at 10:05 AM. |
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04-15-2014, 10:09 AM | #22 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
Thanks Mart for correcting my error.
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04-15-2014, 11:34 AM | #23 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
Ok this is worse than teaching school, It is your car you can do what you want but to validate my point about the seal position here is a copy from Victor Page service book on old Fords that reaffirms my position on the male/female seal orientation.Since the drive shaft inserts rear to front this means the taper of the seal faces the rear. Since an axle inserts to the axle tube from banjo to hub this means the taper faces the banjo as the axle is positioned thru it and the open edge is to the outside.
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04-15-2014, 11:59 AM | #24 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
Dick, You are right on the driveshaft but wrong on the axle. If you look
at the first picture in post 19 it says "grease retainer - install with sharp edge of leather toward differential". The direction it is installed depends on which fluid you want to retain not which direction the shaft slides on. On the axle you are trying to keep the gear lube out of the brakes. See the August 1933 service bulletins for good pictures. Bob |
04-15-2014, 12:16 PM | #25 | |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
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04-15-2014, 01:18 PM | #26 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
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04-15-2014, 02:13 PM | #27 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
The three seals in question, one at the U/Joint, two in the axle housings are there to control transmission- differential fluid. They are not for control of grease!! Transmission fluid will migrate thru the u-joint and back thru the drive shaft tube to the diff. The seal in the front of the drive shaft tube is to control this. So the lip should point toward the transmission. The axle housing seals are to prevent differential fluid from going toward the brakes, not to control over greasing of the drum bearing. The lip should point toward what you are trying to control that is differential fluid.
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04-15-2014, 02:39 PM | #28 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
So it took 26 posts to confirm my stupid snow shovel example? Are we a bunch of old guys sitting around the cracker barrel or what?
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04-15-2014, 03:09 PM | #29 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
Absolutely incredible thread here and I cannot resist commenting . If I would have had a clue so many think backwards is right on the driveshaft seal I would NEVER have passed on my liking of straight SAE 140 in the u-joint . Not the best choice with a bad or backwards driveshaft seal . David J
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04-15-2014, 03:20 PM | #30 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
Well, it demonstrates the superiority of the internet!
Ask a Ford Manual which way 3 seals go, and you get one lousy answer for each. Phooey. Ask online, and you can get dozens of answers! For free! Can't beat that! |
04-15-2014, 03:35 PM | #31 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
Coming from the hot rodding side of things, when a car is lowered it creates the opposite problem. Axle oil migrates to the trans. After a long run my friend has to drain off the excess from his trans and put it into the axle.
Not saying this changes anything, but there's always two sides to any coin. Having the ford manuals illustrate how they go is great, it takes out any second guessing. If and when I do the job again I now know what to do. Two innies and one outie. Mart. |
04-15-2014, 04:01 PM | #32 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
What is amazing to me is that number here seem to think that despite having built millions of cars with the grease seals installed per their own service bulletins that Ford did not know what it was doing. This despite the fact that thousands of those cars have survived Ford's failure to understand what purpose these grease seals was to serve.
Dick, my long time friend, you are correct about the torque tube seal orientation. That shows in your illustration and is consistent with the Ford service bulletins. Apart from its obvious purpose in that orientation, the absence of any significant taper on the front end of the drive shaft precludes the seal from being installed backwards; it would be torn up when the drive shaft passed through it. The taper on the axles shaft is an entirely different matter. It is severe enough to pass through the grease seal with the open or lip side facing the differential in conformity with Ford's service bulletins (and the way the damn things were built in the first place). I've done it that way at least a dozen times and haven't wrecked a seal yet, including NOS leather seals. (Okay, I do have the advantage of having all of the original KRW tools for the job so that helps.) Kind sir, you are correct about the orientation of the torque tube grease seal, but your argument does not trump the service bulletin instructions regarding the grease seal orientation in the axle housings and the purpose for that orientation which is to keep rear axle lubricant (which has a much lower viscosity) from reaching the rear wheel bearings whose grease has a much higher viscosity. Please think in terms of what would happen to rear wheel bearings running in rear axle lube during extended high speed driving. Last edited by DavidG; 04-15-2014 at 04:03 PM. Reason: added word |
04-15-2014, 04:42 PM | #33 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
Overgreasing of the rear wheel bearings may have been the reason why Ford deleted the grease fitting in that area after a certain year.
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04-15-2014, 05:46 PM | #34 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
Ok one more time, the seal lip on the axle shaft seal is tapered to the banjo to accept the axle during installation. All this hoopla about the rear axle lube running thru the seal is due to a worn bearing or race that causes the axle shaft to elliptically rotate and wear out the seal or place a groove in the axle shaft itself.
If your car is leaking lube thru the axle seal you have about 2 gallons of lube in the banjo that only takes less than a quart so no matter which way the seal is positioned its going to leak or you are spending time playing Joie Chitwood thrill show driver up on two wheels. Since so many have referred to the service bulletin books I started doing some research and will concede that although one section explains it contrary to my opinion I believe this is a mistake created by the instruction writer that was only looking at a bunch of parts laid down incorrectly in front of them for reference purposes and the sequence written about was just made up text even though it may not have been correct because it followed the similar from truck axle installation. Anyway I'm standing firm at the present time because I got my KRW axle seal installation tool out and got an NOS seal and a new Repro seal and there is no way you can install that original leather seal with the lip facing in without crushing the leather during installation. Put it together with the lip facing out goes right together.
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04-15-2014, 06:34 PM | #35 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
Dick,
Yes you can if you follow the old rule about soaking the leather seal in motor oil for at least 24 hours. Dave |
04-15-2014, 06:53 PM | #36 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
Having been a professional mechanic and having worked almost everything you can think of that runs across the ground or water for nearly the last 40 years.
Iv never seen a seal that didn’t install like I’ve marked this photo. |
04-15-2014, 07:07 PM | #37 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
This is one of the items that will always have some contention but I think there is no wrong answer on this. If you look at the parts nomenclature for the seals they are largely refered to as grease retainers and That is likely how it all started. FoMoCo put those grease fittings in there and the port is right outboard of the retainer or seal. Grease will take the path of least resistance and the seals were probably originally designed to hold the grease from going into the axle housing instead of going into the wheel bearing. Unfortunately, there is also the possibility of contaminated grease being forced into the brake drum. The service bulletins were to make procedural and parts changes. If complaints of grease in the drum were a problem then they were limited on how they could effect an alteration that would rectify any and all possible problems. Turning the seal around would give the grease a place to go other than into the drum for those that believed you had to keep greasing until it came out somewhere ( you all probably have know folks that think that way). Filling the rear axle was preferable to filling the brake drum so they flipped the grease seal around. Later they deleted the grease fitting and gave instructions to hand pack the rear wheel bearings. The grease retainer became an oil seal to keep axle lubricant in the axle. Problem solved?
Here we are years and years later and still having a problem with direction. The truth is, it really doesn't matter which way it goes unless you park the old fliver on the side of a steep grade and all the rear axle gear lube runs into the low side brake drum. |
04-15-2014, 08:19 PM | #38 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
Well there has been some great dialogue on this topic. Thanks to all who have given their 2 cents. A wealth of knowledge as usual from you guys.
Still in a quandary as to the orientation of the seal. Am I keeping oil out or grease. Maybe I should experiment one each way? Thanks, Norm |
04-15-2014, 11:35 PM | #39 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
I agree with Old Ford Addict. Together we have over 80 years experience. Harley
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04-16-2014, 03:47 AM | #40 |
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Re: Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals
I always wondered about those cars that park side on on the steep hills in San Francisco. They must have had one brake full of axle oil.
Mart. Last edited by Mart; 04-16-2014 at 03:53 AM. |
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