Calling Ol'Ron, calling Ol'Ron...

[Fortunateson]

As the title says. Tried his personal email but message was rejected. Posted a Barm PM and no replies yet.

[Ol' Ron]

I just checked my PM, and your RIGHT, I didn't answer you. However, I remember answering you, I probably forgot to push the right button. At 87 I forget allot of things. SSsssOOoooo??? Why .030?? Why 3 97's? Charley ny for dist great. What cam, any?
Whe building a street engine you low end need torque. The only thing that gives you this is compression and displacement. .060 or .125 would cost almost the same as .030" and give you more displacement and compression. 3 97 for a small engine would would be allot of trouble for local driving even with progressive linkage. However, by blocking off the center card ( leave the carb on) you could have a dual system. For street use install 2" risers under them. Sorry about that
Gramps
Now everybody else will offer their opinions as well.

[mfirth]

My opinion is to listen to OL'Ron .....

[Kube]

Originally Posted by mfirth

My opinion is to listen to OL'Ron .....

I could not agree with you more. Listen to the man!
Nothing like advice from a guy that has "been there and done that" more times than mere mortals such as myself can imagine.

[mfirth]

Kube, i've read enough of your stuff here & on V8 Times to know you rank right up there too. My last 8BA was inspired a lot by Barners with experience.

[Kube]

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Originally Posted by mfirth

Kube, i've read enough of your stuff here & on V8 Times to know you rank right up there too. My last 8BA was inspired a lot by Barners with experience.

Thanks for the kind words. While I believe I do "okay" I can't help but have admiration for "ol Ron. They guy KNOWS his stuff. I read all of his posts and have learned quite a bit.

[Ol' Ron]

OK, Buy the book!!!
Gramps

[1931flathead]

Ron is the man I learn a lot from him he probably forgot more then I will ever lnow

[Fortunateson]

Thanks. I'll get to CharlieNY for the distributor, I'll block off the centre carb, and I'll go see my machinist and discuss the .060 over versus the .030 over. I'll look into the 2" carb risers.

The cam is a local grind version of the Max1 so you advise using the .060 shims for the springs, correct?

Do you know how much the compression rises with my original Eddie Meyer heads?

One last thing, you did answer me but you had a couple of questions and you suggested I use your personal email. I tried but it bounced back so that is why I started this thread.

Thanks for all the help, I REALLY appreciate it!

[McMimmcs]

The man has built a reputation of being one of the best ! Congratulations

[tubman]

Ask your machinist why he wants to stick with the small overbore. Has he documented thin cylinder walls or a core shift with sonic testing, or is he just applying his experience with modern thin wall castings? Like Ron says, "Whe[n] building a street engine you [want] low end need torque. The only thing that gives you this is compression and displacement. .060 or .125 would cost almost the same as .030" and give you more displacement and compression". This has been my experience as well. Back in the day, a lot of guys took these engines to 3 3/8"+.030 or even 3 7/16", so an 1/8" (.125) still leaves you with plenty of meat for the future unless a specific problem exists. You should really talk to your machinist because you should know about any such problems with the block.

[Ol' Ron]

I reality, I don't kow much about the early cars, other than the trans and reak axles can't stand up to much abuse. In the early street days the 404 Ols engine was king, and cheap, it did't take long before it hot bigger, 324/372?? In 55 the SBC came out and a 283/ Dum cam for $18,75 made more power than 2 flatheads. And then there was the Hemi. Stock cars and racing brought back the flathead. At this point you start by coping what others do, but this way you don't get any better, so you begin to experiment and after 7/8 years we set a track record. You can't believe how proud we were. unfortunately, they??? sabotaged the radiator with small pieces of shop rags . well at least we got their attention.

[39portlander]

Originally Posted by mfirth

My opinion is to listen to OL'Ron .....

and try that Flathead chili recipe in the back of Nostalgia, it's MMM...good

[Zeke3]

Okay, it has been awhile since I have read Ol Ron's book, so I am going to have to get it out and re-read it. And, check out that chili recipe.

[Kilohertz]

Okay for us newbies, could someone please point me to 'ol Ron's book? I would love to read it as I am just starting to think about a full rebuild...maybe.


Thanks

[39portlander]

Originally Posted by Kilohertz

Okay for us newbies, could someone please point me to 'ol Ron's book? I would love to read it as I am just starting to think about a full rebuild...maybe.


Thanks

While your in the book mode, Flathead Facts by John Lawson should also be on your list. JWL also posts on Fordbarn.

Learn what works, Why it works and How it works. Keep the flame burning

[Ol' Ron]

You can get either book from Max VP, we need the money.
Gramps

[chap52]

To all those who share their lifetime of knowledge with us...THANK YOU good and faithful servants... Chap

[G.M.]

You don't just stick .060 shims under warn weak
springs. There is a spring test machine that shows
the spring pressure at a set height. They should
all be close to the same pressure. G.M.

[HambBurglar]

Funny! I got your book in the mail today from Van Pelt’s. Really looking forward to reading it thoroughly. Joe

[Fortunateson]

Originally Posted by G.M.

You don't just stick .060 shims under warn weak
springs. There is a spring test machine that shows
the spring pressure at a set height. They should
all be close to the same pressure. G.M.

I'll be using new stock springs from Speedway. Does that sound about right? Ron alluded to using the .060 shims and I was looking for confirmation.

[Ol' Ron]

George is right. Installed heigth at 45/50lbs for most street cams works quite well I use tgus in the L-100 and it'll turn 5k no problem. But it ain't made for that. It's made for cruising. Now if your going to use the rotators they have a shorter valve and spring and will need a .060a' shim to bring the numbers up to 45/50lbs.
Gramps.

[KiWinUS]

As GM alluded to when building engines guessing is never acceptable. Along with any other engine spec you should ALWAYS check valve seat pressure. Guessing is gambling. How much do you have in your engine. Cheers. Tony

[Fortunateson]

Okay, I'm getting a little confused here. I was planning on using original Johnson adjustable lifters with original valves that are in good shape along with the advised .060 shims. Are you guys saying that the valves used with the adjustable lifters (which came from a rebuilt C0BA) are different than with the non-adjustable lifters? The engine is a Canadian '49 or '50 Merc (I've forgotten right now,to much thinking!) which was never rebuilt.

In short, are the original, in good shape, valves ok to use with the adjustable lifters with new springs and the .060 shims?

[KiWinUS]

Too many unknown variables. How much previously has been cut from valve stems. Exact length of valve. How much valve has by ground. Condition of seats. Installed height of seat. The list goes on of factors that change valve spring tension.

[Fortunateson]

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Thanks for all those good points. As stated the engine has never been rebuilt. I will discuss more with my machinist when we talk about increasing the over bore. I know the valve seats will need a little tidying up though. So in my mind I'm thinking that valve stems that have never been ground and a tidying up of the valve seats should mean that the valves should be long enough and may need a little trimming. Will measure the length of the valve. Hopefully paying a visit to the machine shop next week.

[JSeery]

Your machinist should be able to measure your valve springs for you. You need to determine the spring seat pressure at a specific spring height. That height may or may not require shimming. Any good flathead rebuild book should go into detail on how to go about this.

You need to be sure your machinist has experience with flatheads and the required equipment to do the job.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by Fortunateson

I'll be using new stock springs from Speedway. Does that sound about right? Ron alluded to using the .060 shims and I was looking for confirmation.

New springs need to be tested and exter shims may be needed
to get the springs to the same pressure at normal spring height.
There is a machine just for this. I have one. If you get to Florida
I will help you do them. G.M.

[Ol' Ron]

I thought we were talking about the rotators. not the lifters.

[Fortunateson]

Ron, Johnson adjustable lifters... do they have different valves rather than stock?

[Ol' Ron]

The method of getting the the right tappet clearance in a flathead is by grinding the dtem of the valve. na has nothing to do with the valve spring. The slight amount you'd remove would not change the valve spring pressure a measurable amt. However old springs loos some of their umph and need some help so measuring this is quit easy take a valve and install it witout the spring and measure the distance between the buid and spring retaier, Now get the bathroom scale out and put a valve in the chiuk of your drill press anf force the spring down to the same numbet and read the dial. It should be 45/50lbs. Not exactily rocket science, just flathead science. The adjustable lifter just makes it easire to get the right tappet clearance. Don't forget to drill the hole??
Gramps

[Fortunateson]

Ron,

I didn't get to connect with my machinist this week to ask about the .060 overbore versus .030, maybe next week. I will be drilling the holes to lock the Johnsons while they are adjusted. Now do I need the .060 shims if I'm using new springs with my Max1 cam? Sorry for pestering...

[flatjack9]

The only way to know is to measure the installed height of the spring and measures it's tension at that height.

[tubman]

Also, when you talk to your machinist find out if you have core shift, casting flaws or other defects that would keep you from putting a decent (.125") overbore in it while you're at it.

[Fortunateson]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

The only way to know is to measure the installed height of the spring and measures it's tension at that height.

Will do then. I would think that new springs would be without the variance but then they would be for a stock cam. I was hoping for an "right out of the box" yes or no.

[flatjack9]

No, need to measure

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Fortunateson

Will do then. I would think that new springs would be without the variance but then they would be for a stock cam. I was hoping for an "right out of the box" yes or no.

All springs need to be measured, just like ring gap, bearing clearance, etc. There really is no such thing as correct or no variance right out of the box. They may or may not be correct, that is why you need to check! You might be able to just install them out of the box, but then you never know what value the spring pressure really is and if it is consistent. You also need to determine the install height before you can determine the spring pressure. The install height varies based on the valve seat and face of the valve.

[Fortunateson]

Well I've been well and truely educated! Thanks for all the replies. I just presumed there would be consistency with new parts. I'll see if I can get to the machinist this week...

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Fortunateson

Well I've been well and truely educated! Thanks for all the replies. I just presumed there would be consistency with new parts. I'll see if I can get to the machinist this week...

There may well be, but there may not be, just no way to knowing without checking.

[Ol' Ron]

You Just have to measure to see what you need and then supply it, Now, I you plan on running a cam like the 400jr , or any other cam with a high lift rate for extended period's of time ( like circle track or Biville. Your going to need more spring pressure. But why put 60/70 lbs on the cam and lifters, if they will never see 4k.

[Fortunateson]

The cam is a Max1 clone done by a local cam grinder who's been in the business since the mid fifties. The car will be a cruiser.

[tubman]

What kind of springs are you planning on using? Stock? New or used? When I got my MAX1 from Iskendarian, it came with a set of their 185G springs. I only needed a couple of shims and have been very satisfied with it's performance.

[flatjack9]

Lincoln Zephyr springs should be just fine

[51 MERC-CT]

Just catch'n up on some Ol'Ron wisdom.

[Zeke3]

I just re-read my copy last week, my copy is spiral bound. I didn't have a dog looking over my shoulder either.

[Ol' Ron]

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Lincoln Zephyr springs work just fine, but you have to buy them and a .060 shim os cheaper. I don't have the cash to buy something I don't need. Building an engine ?car is very expensive and aesthetics and brand names increase the cost with little benefit ot power or economy. I can't afford that. But I respect those that can. However, ther e are many people that buy things that just don't work for the application, just because it look good.
Gramps

[Fortunateson]

Originally Posted by tubman

What kind of springs are you planning on using? Stock? New or used? When I got my MAX1 from Iskendarian, it came with a set of their 185G springs. I only needed a couple of shims and have been very satisfied with it's performance.

As I mentioned earlier the springs will be new stock spec springs from Speedway. I'm now going to wait to have them checked before I get the .060 shims if indeed they are needed.

What does the 185G stand for?

[51 MERC-CT]

Posted this some time ago, may or may not help clarify installed height.

[Ol' Ron]

That Book was printed 29 years ago, and I've learned allot since. I started Nostalgia engines and began rebuilding them for others for aprox 15 years. It was the first of the modern Flathead books and I think it helped bring the flathead back into popularity, When I went to the 1097 York ps car show there were only 6 flathead there including the one we brought. It was then I thought of writing my book, In 92 I brought a 100 books aand sold out in 2 days. I'm very proud of that.
Gramps

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Fortunateson

As I mentioned earlier the springs will be new stock spec springs from Speedway. I'm now going to wait to have them checked before I get the .060 shims if indeed they are needed.

What does the 185G stand for?

Ya know, I never thought about that. I always thought it was just a part number, but perhaps it does have some other meaning. I wonder if anyone else knows?

[flatjack9]

I always took it as just a part number and generally a stiffer spring than what is needed for a street flathead.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by Fortunateson

As I mentioned earlier the springs will be new stock spec springs from Speedway. I'm now going to wait to have them checked before I get the .060 shims if indeed they are needed.

What does the 185G stand for?

185G is the Isky part number for their performance type Flathead valve spring. That valve spring is similar to the Lincoln Zephyr valve spring which is a good alternative for the flathead.
Ronnieroadster

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by mfirth

My opinion is to listen to OL'Ron .....

to bad Kids today don't listen to the old man at 53 i am the old man at work, when I say something they say I Know I know! keep your mouth shut and ears open!