Gas tank cleaning

[RichPA]

This is a spin off from the EvapoRust thread.As mentioned, I need to get a lot of rust out of my tank, and there is no local shop that will do it, so if you want something done, do it your self.My plan is to shake out whatever I can,put in 2 gallons of Evaporust and shake well.There are two patches soldered on the bottom, one on each side which I assume is from a prior attempt. I want to unsolder these patches so I can clean the areas that are blocked off by the baffles. So here are the questions that I open to suggestion...Is this a good plan? What can be used to neutralize the gas fumes so that soldering will be safe? I plan on finding an old fashioned soldering iron that you heat with a torch.I do not want to use a sealer and I am going to use the raised strainer that goes on the shut off fitting.Anybody?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Pour in some Evapo-Rust as mentioned, then fasten the tank to a cement mixer and let it spin. I've also heard of tying the tank to a tractor tire. I want to make a rotating jig from an old bearing and wheel and use pulleys and a 1/4 H.P. electric motor. There are things other than just gas tanks I'd like to rotate. It could also be used to paint wheels, etc.

[RichPA]

I've got the tractor (backhoe) which I can raise the rear wheel up off the ground with the stabilizer arm.

['29wagon]

i just don't want to mess up the tern coating inside . sure it's not as it was when new but . has anyone tested evaporust on lead-zink. what will happen ? doin it myself . no $ to throw out .

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Rich, there are a lot of things you are mentioning that based on my experience are contradicting. First off, if there is a lot of rust, then 2 gallons of Evapo-Rust cannot get to all of the areas to remove rust, --even when the tank is rotated. (10 gallons Yes, ...2 Gallons No!)

2nd, if there are patches that have been soldered on, then likely the protective finish inside (Terne) has been damaged. Matter of fact, if there is any rust inside, the protective coating has been compromised at least in that area. Do not kid yourself into thinking you can remove the rust and then add gasoline and all will be well without a sealer applied to the bare metal. It just won't happen as it will be rusted again in less than 30 days even when saturated in gasoline because all of the oxygen in modern fuels.

As far as purging ("neutralizing") the tank, any good soap & water will do this. We personally use heated caustic but in reality, I am of the opinion there has been more "He said/She said" stories posted here about tanks blowing up than reality. Sure there have been explosions in the past but my experiences have been that even when we have used plain water to flush out a tank and then I stuck a lit torch into the neck, the most that I have experienced is a slight "poof" sound followed by a small flame that quickly burns out. While it might be startling, it won't be life threatening (unless you have a heart attack) Think about it, if you truly flush out a tank with water & soap where there is only a slight amount of water-diluted gasoline left, how much vapor can be present? If you want to disagree with me and my opinion, then choose whatever method you deem as prudent as it is your heath that is at risk.

I have said this before but maybe it bears repeating. Opening up a gas tank like we do it really isn't that complicated, ...its just time consuming to do the job in what I view as correctly. We have a large heated vat that we use to aggitate the tank to soften old ineffective sealers and remove gasoline varnishes/vapors. Afterwards we use a steam cleaner to get a good flush of any remaining residue. Next we have experience doing it where we have messed up a tank or three experimenting to see what works best getting it opened up in the least obvious manner, and we have jigs fabricated to ensure when the tank is reassembled that it is welded back correctly ...and not twisted (easy to weld back together twisted or warped), and we do enough tanks where we can efficiently apply enough sealer to thoroughly coat all of the tank's insides. By this I mean, we actually see in many cut-open "restored" tanks where the tank was rotated and the tank sealer reached the top and bottom of the tank however usually the backside of the baffles were missed in the center, and those rusted areas allowed sediment to re-appear in the fuel causing the very issues to resurface.

I guess bottom line is, I think your plan may be a little flawed based on my experiences but on the other hand, it may be right for you and what you are trying to accomplish.

.

[barron]

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I also use a strong magnet placed 2" from the gas valve, its no fun blowing thru the gas line if it slows to a trickle..... also the tractor guys will put some pea gravel in the tank and shake the hell out of it for cleaning

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by barron

I also use a strong magnet placed 2" from the gas valve, its no fun blowing thru the gas line if it slows to a trickle..... also the tractor guys will put some pea gravel in the tank and shake the hell out of it for cleaning

Hey "barron"...Are you in Carnation or Tarnation, Washington?

Pluck

[barron]

officially I'm in Tolt, but its been named Carnation after the company farm, with a flatlander population of 2500, of which is a high percentage of ignorant folks..... Tarnation

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by barron

I also use a strong magnet placed 2" from the gas valve, its no fun blowing thru the gas line if it slows to a trickle..... also the tractor guys will put some pea gravel in the tank and shake the hell out of it for cleaning

In your experience, does that work on Model A tanks too?

.

[barron]

I've never done it to an A tank, The guy I helped do some oliver tanks, went easy, built an "A" frame, hung a rope down from the top and tied to the tank, filled with maybe a milk carton of pea gravel also we used straight water as this was free.... I thought A and T guys were tight wads, they got nothing on tractor fellas

[Terry, NJ]

LOL You are Correct! I used the "Spin it on a tractor tire" method, with a hand full of gravel too. The worst part was getting the gravel out afterward. I think next time I'll put the gravel in a sock or something. However, I don't like this method. It's not getting 100%. It's OK as a first pass. But I would want at least a second shot at the rust. I believe in being more thorough.
Terry

Originally Posted by barron

I've never done it to an A tank, The guy I helped do some oliver tanks, went easy, built an "A" frame, hung a rope down from the top and tied to the tank, filled with maybe a milk carton of pea gravel also we used straight water as this was free.... I thought A and T guys were tight wads, they got nothing on tractor fellas

[jw hash]

I had a tank that was in good shape but had a lot of rust in it, we used a tank cleaning a sealer kit by KSB coatings and put the tank in my electric cement mixer along with a gallon of pee gravel and let in run for a while then changed the position of the mixer so it will get other areas in the tank when you finish with cleaning and rinsing we clean the pee gravel out with with a wet vacuum, it took awhile but it came out real clean then we put the liner in it.

[Keith True]

I have done A tanks on the loader wheel.You have to strap them on with the instrument panel facing the wheel,any other way and you will not get the underside of the tank top clean.I throw in maybe a quart of black beauty,(coal slag) and let it spin.I just start the loader and let it spin for a few hours at a time.The worst tank I did is now in my truck.I probably spun that one for 20 hours,maybe more.I knew I would never get it all,but I did get it to a no-problem level.The sand will get around the baffles,you will find out when you try to get it out.I wash the tank after,then dry it by leaving it in the sun and rolling it around for a couple of days.In the winter I just set it in front of the waste oil furnace.Then I blow the powder out with a 3 foot line on a blow gun.The real bad one in my truck I did in 94 or 95,and as of two years ago had accumulated about 1/2 inch of sediment in the bowl.When in use the truck never sits long enough to start to rust,and in the winter I have always dumped ATF in the tank and driven before parking.In reality,if you have the capabilities,cutting the top of the tank off like Brent does would be faster.It can get pretty agonizing blowing that sand out after.A local radiator shop used to gut two holes in the backs of the 30-31 tanks and weld them back in after,but he closed up in the 80's.I am still leery of sealers,I have been burned by them.You may use the newest,high quality impervious to everything now,but what will be in the gas in the future?As I found out from the sealer maker a couple of years ago,the stuff attacking the sealer was not even invented when they produced the product they put in tanks I had done.All the ones I had done in the early 90's have failed in farm tractors and a couple of cars.The alcohol wasn't doing it,we've had that for a while now.

[bobpo]

I used 8 - 1" stones after cleaning and running boiling water in the tank. You need to count the rocks so you get the same amount back out. I bought the cleaner and sealer from Snyders. The tank is awkward so it's a good idea to have someone help you. It took about 4 days (during the summer), but it came out beautifully.

BE SURE TO FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS TO A "T".

[Cool Hand Lurker]

I am keeping an eye out for a used paint shaker, preferably one for a 5-gal bucket. It could be used for small parts in the 5-gal bucket and i could build an adapter sub-frame to hold things like a Model A gas tank. Anybody have one sitting around doin' nuthin'?

[Glenn C.]

A good strong, co-operative wife is perfect for this type of project. Helps to keep them strong, and feeling needed !!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Well, if spinning them with pea gravel (--or even 1 inch stones) works for you, then by all means continue using that method, but I do challenge you to look at some of the photos below and tell me/us how that gravel is able to penetrate behind the baffles to be effective.

AND, the biggest issue is the rust that is on the sides of those baffles (in the center portions or areas of those baffles) and getting it removed as the gravel seemingly gets to the inside of the exterior walls as the tank is rotated but always manages to miss the areas that would be at the level where fuel would be when the tank is ½ full. This is where the problem comes in because as the fuel sloshes, it dislodges that rust. The subsequent problem is that the rust just reforms again to make the problem ongoing.

One other thing, have you thought about how much sealer it takes to adequately coat a tank? Look at the backside of those baffles and consider the thought if one quart of semi-thick sealer is added and sloshed in the tank, how does it get to those problem areas in the center area of the baffles? To further illustrate this, look at the last image I posted. This was a tank that was tumbled with gravel (you can see the rocks still imbedded in the sealer) and then sealed after the rust was "removed". Can you see why he still had problems??

.

[Glenn C.]

Brent has by far the best solution to clean the inside of the Model A tank. Now...I
guess the question is, Do you want to use the very best form of repair, or is a half baked repair good enough ? After seeing and reading Brent's post...I know which way I would go !!

['29wagon]

if one were to go about inserting items to knock off the rust (what of it you think you'll get) rocks probably are not the best item to choose unless they are of high iron content and solid , then bb's would be a better choice. i'v witnessed bead blasting and a magnet is used in clean up , in this case counting them would be wise .
i do respect the work of a pro (thanks Brent) and those pictures clearly show that you'll never get full coverage of removing all of the rust or coating the tank entirely .

to fill the tank with (to me) an unknown chemical to the brim then empty and observe the amount remaining once drained . still coating without a scope, it's going to be tough to see in there.
looks to me the best way to go about this it to separate it .
thanks for the assistance . at lease for now i've got a good idea where those baffles open up to each chamber, unless there was a change in design, which that thought did come to mind.
i'll just attempt to keep it clean and remove more debris while i continue on .
day by day, inching along. the tank can wait .

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Thanks for the photos Brent. I did not realize that there were more than the two cross-baffles but now I see that there are longitudinal baffles in the two end compartments. That creates an even bigger problem trying to get any abrasives out. I guess cutting it open is the only way to really see what is in there and what has to be done.

[48Ratfink]

Brent, What do You charge for a proper tank Repair/sealing? what is the best way to ship tank?
Gary in Opelika,Al

[Terry, NJ]

Thank you, Brent, Your pictures have put a new perspective on this problem.
Terry

[Jordan]

i've heard of people sticking a long thick chain into the tank, and just shaking it around knocking the big rust loose. Obviously this wont get all of it, but it'll sure help.

[tmurph]

What about using electrolytic method,
fill tank with water and washing soda insert anode, carefully of course making sure it does not contact the tank, hookup battery charger and let it do its thing.

[Keith True]

When I strap a tank to a loader wheel and spin it,I have to make sure the tank is 90 degrees to the wheel.On a 30-31 tank I have to block between the face of the tank,at the bottom of the instrument panel,to make it stand out straight.It is not a 5 minute job.After I turn it a while I look inside with a mirror and light to see where the sand/liqiud is hitting.If it is only sliding around the rear or front of the tank I have to adjust it.If both front and rear are being hit the centers of the baffles are being hit too.I use the coarse black beauty sand,it is screened to about .018.It slithers around the baffles pretty good.I pick both wheels off the ground too,if I just pick up one the wheel tends to spin too fast,and sometimes slings all the sand to the ends without it getting a chance to slide back and forth.I found nuts,bolts,and any stone whatsoever tends to lodge in the corners of the baffle openings.Then another lodges against that,then another,and pretty soon the opening is plugged.

[Tom Wesenberg]

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Why not fill the tank with molasses and let it set in the hot summer sun for a few days to a week. That sure does a good job of removing rust.

[txmerlin]

Ok, pardon the newbie question. I have read this and the other gas tank threads multiple times as I am about to face that task myself. Why has no one reproduced the gas tanks. If not in steel, then aluminium. Seems that there are repro parts for most everything else and judging by the interest in these threads, there is a real need for good clean tanks.

Ken

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by txmerlin

Ok, pardon the newbie question. I have read this and the other gas tank threads multiple times as I am about to face that task myself. Why has no one reproduced the gas tanks. If not in steel, then aluminium. Seems that there are repro parts for most everything else and judging by the interest in these threads, there is a real need for good clean tanks.
Ken

Ken, no need to pardon yourself with that question. I think the best "tongue in cheek" answer is we have been waiting all this time for you to step up and start reproducing them. I know I would be good for purchasing about a dozen a year from you!! Very likely in this venture you could make a small fortune, ..............out of a large fortune!

The non-sarcastic answer is there are about 4 different tanks that would need to be manufactured, and the tooling costs and set-up would likely be cost prohibitive.
.
.

[Craig Lewis]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Ken, no need to pardon yourself with that question. I think the best "tongue in cheek" answer is we have been waiting all this time for you to step up and start reproducing them. I know I would be good for purchasing about a dozen a year from you!! Very likely in this venture you could make a small fortune, ..............out of a large fortune!

The non-sarcastic answer is there are about 4 different tanks that would need to be manufactured, and the tooling costs and set-up would likely be cost prohibitive.
..

*Exclusive offer*
If anyone wants into the IPO, I'd like to market a "universal" Model A tank.
No need for 4 different models, this will be close enough to sorta fit everything or nothing (not an issue) featuring large gaps & our new exclusive thread pitch for fittings and screws.
... the beauty of this design from an investment standpoint is I can source the cheapest labour (which is becoming you & me) while being protected from recalls as long as it's labeled REPRODUCTION
*Bonus can of tank sealer for the first 20 orders

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Can't use aluminum or fiberglass because ethanol attacks it, but maybe "Tanks, Inc" could reproduce them in plastic. But then that wouldn't be "metal"..... shudder!

['29wagon]

plastic !
beyond coating .
why couldn't a reproduction tank be made , like the red plastic jerry cans of today's standards . an insert . sure you'd need to separate it and remove the existing baffles but couldn't a liner be made to drop right in then reassemble it with the help of a guy like brent who has the jigs to square it back up .

[Cool Hand Lurker]

I just checked the website for Tanks, Inc. and they do offer a polyethylene tank for the Model A but whether it is original design or not it does not say. That would take a phone call to them. Their website is http://www.tanksinc.com/ if anybody is interested.

[1931 flamingo]

'29wagon: If you're going to go to the trouble to open it up, why not just do what brent does? Then it's "original", fixed and will fit when reinstalled. JMO
Paul in CT

[Minn-Tex Lee]

Camper and RV people dump ice in their holding tanks and as they drive down the road the ice breaks up any solids and then melts.
Might be worth a try.
Lee

[1931 flamingo]

Minn-Tex Lee: I don't remember any baffles in holding tank(s) on my prowler. Different animal than a gas tank I think. JMO
Paul in CT

['29wagon]

good point paul ,
and that tanks inc is an under body tank , no thanks .

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

To comment on some of the above dialogue, IMHO there are plenty of Model A tanks to go around for each Model A being restored including those to be done in the future however most of them either need to be, --or will need to be "de-rusted" on the inside. I would imagine that the price of a new Model A reproduction gas tank would be very close to $1,000.00 each by the time all the stamping dies were made for all the pieces, new brackets cast, and all of the assembly and coating were completed. Based on what I know about this hobby/industry, the likelihood of folks standing impatiently in line to purchase one of them would probably not be too great!

The current way we are opening them up and cleaning them is a very satisfactory way IMHO however the only thing that keeps me from offering a lifetime warranty on our tank restorations is finding a suitable coating process that will stand-up to that kind of warranty. No one in that coating industry wants to step-up and commit to withstanding a fuel that might be used a decade or two down the road.

/


.

[barron]

Brent, when you have a tank opened up, have you considered having it zinc plated?

[Steve Plucker]

Another reason why Model A tanks are not being reproduced is because of the "LIABILITY" issue...one malfunction on a reproduction tank and...well, I sure would hate to be going down that road if you know what I mean!

Pluck

['29wagon]

[QUOTE=Steve Plucker;180954]Another reason why Model A tanks are not being reproduced is because of the "LIABILITY" issue..

which is another reason that i suggest someone with the right understanding of the mold injection process, or the make up of the yard fuel can . i've got a couple of five galloners for my willys jeep , red plastic . i suggest a mold to fit , with it's own similar baffles, fuel neck fits and lower exit hole tapped.

i'd pay a guy to put something like that in my tank and forget about ever coating it, or another one ever .

challenge, anyone ?

[rollingsculpture]

question for brent , 1.. i noticed that you did not answer the question about cost to do a tank as im guessing you dont want a deluge of tanks to be cleaned showing up at the shop ?? @.. can you post more pics of the step by step process you use and share with us how you determined the right parting line and the process you use including the jigs that you use to help in the rewelding

Thank you in advance for your work and research that you share.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Actually the reason I didn't answer is because my presence here is NOT about soliciting for business. We actually have several tanks to do currently however everyone generally contacts us through my website.

[Mike V. Florida]

May I point you to this thread with pictures;

Cut open tanks

[rollingsculpture]

ummm hoookaaayyy.