3 Point seatbelt for Tudor

[Norm M]

I have been searching for hints on how other people have installed seatbelts in their Model As. Most of the information has been on lap belts and I would really like to install a 3 point belt. While I realize that having a lap belt will keep you in the car and is better than nothing, I would rather try not taking a bite out of the steering wheel or have the front passenger bounce their head off the dash. In my search I came across the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Ujis_SD5E ) from the UK which shows a 1931 Deluxe Tudor which was restored in Texas. About half way through the video you can see the seatbelt attached to the “B” pillar. Does anyone know how it was done or who might have done the restoration?
Thanks for any help.

[Synchro909]

Norm, IMHO, the B pillar of a Model A is not substantial enough to use to anchor a seat belt. I wouldn't do it. In order to achieve what you describe, I used a 3 point harness arrangement in my Phaeton and my Tudor.
At the bottom of the rear tub, down behind the rear seat is a strong box section which I think was put there to stiffen the body. I secured the rear belts and the harness part of my (the driver's) belt to it. By doing so at the RHS (remember, we are RHD), a rear seat passenger is barely aware of the presence of my belt while still able to wear theirs. When I decided to do the job, I wasn't sure how well it would work but now that I have experienced to feeling of security it gives, I'm happy I did it and won't be going back.
I did consider attaching the sash part of a lap-sash belt to the same place and having the sash pass through a "stalk" mounted at the B pillar to hold the belt up to shoulder height.

[Lona]

Norm,
Check out www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=160532

Or, do a forum search on "retractable 3 point seat belts in a sedan"

It gives a description with photos on how its done. Not a model A but same as Synchro did. I agree, don't try to attach to the wood B pillar since it would just tear out in an accident.

Congrats on making your A driving experience safer with full belt restraints.

Glen

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Here is my plan for seat belts in my 1930 Tudor. I have not done this yet but it is on schedule for this spring. If you see any problem with what I have planned please comment.
The black parts are 1/8" steel strap welded to the existing metal body at the points indicated. They provide a solid mounting point for the belt anchors and will spread the pulling force out over a larger area of the body. The gray strips are the seat belts, with the retracting devices mounted on the side panels at floor level. The buckle ends will go to a stationary receiver latch mounted to the floor between the two front seats and in the center of the rear seat at the junction of the back rest and the back seat. The front belts will have to be held down for entry and exit.

And thanks to Brent in 10-uh-C for the original photo that I used. He is a good source for everything Model A, even if he might not know it.

[mhsprecher]

My concern is whether the shoulder straps for the front seat are high enough?

[Lona]

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Cool Hand,
Nice photo with your own overlay of planned seat belt arrangement....much better than a description alone.

A few observations which might be worth mentioning.

All the seat belt hardware should be bolted to reinforced anchoring points on the car and not welded. If the 1/8" steel straps are welded directly to the car metal body vertical supports, would these existing supports and the welds be strong enough and would there be enough room behind the plates to install washers and nuts or a threaded anchoring plate for the hardware bolts?

Mounting the retracting devices with a regular seat belt angle bracket bolted to the frame instead of to the metal body vertical supports would provide a much stronger installation. I'm not familiar with the Tudor frame configuration to know if this is possible or not. Your plan is similar to installing 3 point retractables in 50's era convertibles with no B pillars as shown on the websites of several belt manufacturers.

When installing the retractors at the floor, the belt should come directly out of the retractor and not angled. This requires the upper shoulder bracket to be lined up directly over the retractor.

How will you install the car interior panels and trim over the projecting steel straps?

Please take my comments as constructive and not criticism. There are many ways to skin a cat. The most important thing is that you are thinking about safety in our cars which are woefully lacking in that respect.

Good luck with your installation............Glen

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Originally Posted by Lona

Cool Hand,
Nice photo with your own overlay of planned seat belt arrangement....much better than a description alone.

A few observations which might be worth mentioning.

All the seat belt hardware should be bolted to reinforced anchoring points on the car and not welded.
The steel straps are the "reinforced anchoring points" and will have mounting holes in them or threaded plates. The seat belts are bolted on to the flat steel side straps which are in turn welded onto the top part of the side body panel and in the back to the horizontal rear body belt reinforcing members and the vertical body panel seam.
The side straps stop before the vertical post and rely on the strength of the side body panel. All of this will be covered by upholstery. If the shoulder belt needs to be mounted higher the side straps could be extended upwards along the vertical post in an "L" shape.

Mounting the retracting devices with a regular seat belt angle bracket bolted to the frame instead of to the metal body vertical supports would provide a much stronger installation.
YUP !

When installing the retractors at the floor, the belt should come directly out of the retractor and not angled. This requires the upper shoulder bracket to be lined up directly over the retractor.
Yes, that is what is intended even though the photo may not have been clear on that. As the belts come up from the retractor to the top anchor they are free to slide through the top anchor. They are not solid at that point.

How will you install the car interior panels and trim over the projecting steel straps?
The steel straps should not be much thicker than the rolled relief panel strengtheners and I don't think the interior panels will be affected much, but I could be wrong on that.

Please take my comments as constructive and not criticism. There are many ways to skin a cat. The most important thing is that you are thinking about safety in our cars which are woefully lacking in that respect.

Good luck with your installation............Glen

You Betcha!

And thanks again to Brent for using his photo.

[Lona]

Cool Hand,
I think the planned height of your front belt pivot bracket will be fine. As mentioned, it is basically the same height as the belt manufacturers show on installations in convertibles without B pillars.

The effectiveness of your setup for the front belts relies first on how well the steel straps are welded to the side panel, and second, how strong the side panel is. Will the side panel break away from the car with the extreme G force of a body moving forward in a head-on? I can't opine on that as I don't have a Tudor to look at.

I've always felt that with safety belts on vintage cars, the anchor points should, if at all possible, be mounted to the frame. You have photos of my sedan installation and, having had exchanges with him regarding belt installations, Syncro909 who posted above I think would be more than happy to comment more on the details of his installation. I believe mhsprecher of post No. 5 has also put 3 point belts in his sedan.

While I much prefer mounting to the frame, I could not do that in my roadster. (Thread also on this forum) I mounted the retracter to a heavy steel plate mounted much as you plan to do but attached to two substantial vertical supports in the rumble area.

Glen

[barkleydave]

A concern with frame anchoring is if the body moves your belt and whom ever is in it become the car body anchor .

[Neil Mylar LakewoodCA]

Glen (post#8),
Does the seat belt arrangement in your roadster keep the rumble lid from closing? I bought a 29 coupe from a guy once who told me that his daughter chipped a tooth once when he had to stop fast and the lid closed on her.
Regards, Neil

[Lona]

Neil,
No, my rumble seat belt arrangement in the roadster does not keep the lid from closing and that is a problem I don't know why Ford or any other manufacturer of the era did not consider. I resolved the problem using a quick connect adjustable strap (like a cargo strap) which has a rubber covered hook that fits around the lid handle. The other end hooks around the channel lip under the car. You attach it and winch it up tight and it prevents the lid from closing....takes about a minute or so to connect.

I also slit a kid's foam swimming pool noodle and snap it onto the rain channel where the lid handle engages the rumble opening. This gives some protection for heads and hands if a quick stop is needed. However, all rumble seats are dangerous by their nature and we all should be extremely careful when driving with occupants in the back of our roadsters.

Glen

[Lona]

barkleydave,

Can't comment as I'm not sure what you mean.

Glen

[1931 flamingo]

1/8" strap doesn't seem like much. JMO
Paul in CT

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

1/8" strap doesn't seem like much. JMO
Paul in CT

The metal parts on the end of the seat belts are less than that and if the welds are fairly close together then the strap becomes part of the body so the force gets spread out.