NAPA CS30 Points

[Dirtrack49]

Purchased some points from NAPA a few months ago. Installed them in the car since I was having some issues that ended up being the pigtail wire once again.
Just went to set the point gap for the 3rd time in 612 miles and the rubbing block is so far gone that the points arm is arching to the cam.
After reading many a post that the best replacement points can be had at NAPA, I am wondering what went wrong.
My distributor cam is polished like a mirror. I lube the cam regularly with silicone grease. Cam shaft shows little or no play.
Has anyone else run into what I would call defective points from NAPA lately?
Tom L.

[Bill G]

I have been having difficulty finding any supplier that has original style points that fit. I have not had any issues with the rubbing block. In fact, my experience with most stock-style points is that the length of the arm is just a little too long. Some vendors sell a "band-aid" point block that accommodates the points that are too long. I don't show my car so I went with modern Blue Streak points and NuRex upper plate. I kept the original style condenser.

[Dirtrack49]

The NAPA, or should I say, the Echlin CS30 points, are the proper length of 1.210 from center pivot point to the center of the point contact. The material used for the rubbing block, looks like some type of fiber. The points that I had replaced, showed no real wear after 1400 miles and they have what appears to be a different material for the rubbing block. I don't know if they are original points from the era, or something newer.
I put the old set back on and will see how they work out.
Anyone have a picture of an original set of points?
Tom L.

[old ugly]

if you are running modern style points?.

most modern style points that you buy from local suppliers are cheaply make.
these points that have a PLASTIC cam follower that is riveted to the point arm and spring. the rivets are a point of resistance and create too much heat and melt the PLASTIC follower. this closes up your point gap very quickly. this style of points are garbage.
you need to find a supplier that sells points with the bakealite style follower.

edit.
i just looked at the part number you supplied and see you have are using the original style, so this info probably does not apply to your situation but good to keep in mind.


being that good points are so hard to find, i would never install ,or convert to, modern style points in a model A. stay with the original style.

[katy]

Originally Posted by Dirtrack49

I lube the cam regularly with silicone grease.

You may be using the wrong kind of grease. I usually just use chassis grease, your mileage may vary.

[nkaminar]

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The vendors sell a grease made for the distributor cam. If the follower is in fact a plastic that gets soft with heat then you will need to find points that have the fiber follower.

[rotorwrench]

Standard Motor Parts purchased Echlin some time ago. When the purchase went though, I was wondering how that would affect the quality of Echlin Parts over time. Standard Motor Parts points aren't what they used to be.

The reproduction points sets Ford OEM type model A plates used to fit well. I recently purchased a new set and also found them to be too long. Luckily my old points were still good so I cleaned them up and put them back in. They adjusted easily to dead center and a straight & parallel gap.

[Dirtrack49]

The Echlin points that I bought a couple of years ago as back up fit well. The rubbing block looks like a cork material. What it's actually made of I have no idea. The rubbing block was toast in 612 miles.
Like "katy" recommended, I might try another cam lube like lube grease or Vaseline. I had been using SuperLube which is a dielectric silicone grease. I use it on hoses a lot. Makes things slip on easily.
I find it difficult to believe that the rubbing block would wear down that fast.
Can anyone provide a picture of an original set of points? I would like to compare them to what I am running now.
Thanks.
Tom L.

[Patrick L.]

A tube of lube can be purchased from any of the A vendors and local parts houses should also have. In the old days Vaseline was used.

[nkaminar]

Here is what is advertised as an original tune up kit on ebay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/264100554897 You can zoom in on the points in the second photo.

[old ugly]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Here is what is advertised as an original tune up kit on ebay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/264100554897 You can zoom in on the points in the second photo.

i would say that fibre rubbing block is what is normal. it looks like what i bought from snyders. mine seams ok so far.
i have had original "style" points that have had a black block made from something different (hard not plastic) and they lasted a long time as well.

polish the cam real smooth, like glass and use some good grease and hope for the best, thats about all you can do.

[townsedan29]

try O-Riellys I believe they use bwd points and condenser life time guarantee cured my problems with other venders points and condensers

[BillCNC]

I removed these last week, 300 miles / 2 years time and the cam was lubed twice with Vaseline.

Cam has horizontal score marks, points block is severely worn and with uneven wear. The striation score marks can be felt by dragging a fingernail across them. Point pads were 50% misaligned and the pads were not parallel to each other. Unfortunately, I replaced this pair with a very similar pair. I think I'm going to lube the cam every 100 miles until I can get a properly made set.

Regards
Bill

[chrs1961815]

As someone who has rebuilt distributors for a while, I find it best to use older sets of points that have the correct length arm and better rubbing blocks. They aren't hard to find, many sets are lying around because some genius decided to change the points every year despite the fact they were working.

[katy]

Originally Posted by BillCNC

I removed these last week, 300 miles / 2 years time and the cam was lubed twice with Vaseline.

Cam has horizontal score marks, points block is severely worn and with uneven wear. The striation score marks can be felt by dragging a fingernail across them. Point pads were 50% misaligned and the pads were not parallel to each other. Unfortunately, I replaced this pair with a very similar pair. I think I'm going to lube the cam every 100 miles until I can get a properly made set.

Regards
Bill

W/a rough cam like that the point's dubbing block won't last very long. I would suggest that you remove the cam, mount it on a longish bolt, put it in a drill, spin it and polish it up w/crocus cloth. Once it's polished up, put it back, apply a small amount of the lubricant of your choice and then the rubbing block of the points should last a long time, that is if they're made of a proper material.
Alternately you could buy a new cam and hope that it's as smooth as it should be.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by old ugly

polish the cam real smooth, like glass and use some good grease and hope for the best, thats about all you can do.

So you are saying sand blasting is probably not a good idea?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/32504166821...ampid%3APL_CLK

[katy]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

So you are saying sand blasting is probably not a good idea?

Not for the cam.
As Old Ugly said: "polish the cam real smooth, like glass".

[old ugly]

Originally Posted by chrs1961815

As someone who has rebuilt distributors for a while, I find it best to use older sets of points that have the correct length arm and better rubbing blocks. They aren't hard to find, many sets are lying around because some genius decided to change the points every year despite the fact they were working.

good idea.
i too like to use original stuff or sometimes the older jobber supplier parts from pre-offshore parts era. a lot of stuff gets changed that didn't need to be changed.
i keep all the little parts that i remove from the acquired inventory of model A parts. many times I'm into those boxed looking for stuff.

i just don't know why I'm keeping that whole box of worn out tranny gears, Is that a sign of being a hoarder?

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by katy

Not for the cam.
As Old Ugly said: "polish the cam real smooth, like glass".

Guess that one went over your head?

[katy]

Must be still going.

[BillCNC]

I read somewhere on the internet but I don't recall the site, that 65 Mustang points and condenser are an option for the "A", would this be correct?

Regards
Bill

[old ugly]

Originally Posted by BillCNC

I read somewhere on the internet but I don't recall the site, that 65 Mustang points and condenser are an option for the "A", would this be correct?

Regards
Bill

these would be considered modern points.
to use modern points the upper distributor plate is changed to accommodate them
ford used different point sets in the 50s and 60s cars some mount left and some right. you need to research that further.

as discussed above. i have very little luck finding these style points that use a proper follower. most are plastic and will melt

i don't use modern 1960s points.

the answer to your question is maybe.. and if you have the correct upper plat to match.

[katy]

I have a set of original style points that the rubbing block wore down due to the rough surface of the new B style cam that I had installed. A new set of points didn't line up properly, so I made a new rubbing block for the old points.

[ndnchf]

Originally Posted by katy

I have a set of original style points that the rubbing block wore down due to the rough surface of the new B style cam that I had installed. A new set of points didn't line up properly, so I made a new rubbing block for the old points.

Did you polish the cam before put the rebuilt points back in? If so, did the polishing significantly reduce or all but eliminate wear?

[katy]

Yes, I polished the cam. Spun it in the lathe and used crocus cloth w/oil 'till it was super smooth, didn't take long.
It pretty well eliminated wear of the rubbing block w/a little grease on it.

[old ugly]

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its funny.
Snyder's parts supply says that they sell a modified points block to adjust for the fact that the repro blocks are made wrong. they say the points are correct and same as original. but why when you put a new set of points into a plate that has an old original points anchor block they don't line up?
i think someone is feeding us a load of HS

ou

[ndnchf]

Originally Posted by katy

Yes, I polished the cam. Spun it in the lathe and used crocus cloth w/oil 'till it was super smooth, didn't take long.
It pretty well eliminated wear of the rubbing block w/a little grease on it.

That's good to know, thanks.

[BillCNC]

I wonder how much polishing can be done before it starts altering the cams profile?

Regards
Bill

[Cape Codder]

katy- So are you saying that the worn block put the points out of alignment as shown in your first picture above?

[old ugly]

on a good unscared points cam all you need is to polish it. some will use something like jeweler's rouge, not removing metal or changing the profile.

[Flathead]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Guess that one went over your head?

That's OK, some of us got it.

[katy]

Originally Posted by BillCNC

I wonder how much polishing can be done before it starts altering the cams profile? Regards Bill

Methinks it would take a lot to make any appreciable difference, especially on a 4 cylinder engine.
If one measured the dwell before and after the polishing, they'd find out.

[katy]

Originally Posted by Cape Codder

katy- So are you saying that the worn block put the points out of alignment as shown in your first picture above?

Haha

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by townsedan29

try O-Riellys I believe they use bwd points and condenser life time guarantee cured my problems with other venders points and condensers

Do you have part numbers for the points and condenser?

[katy]

https://www.bwdbrand.com/en

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by katy

A new set of points didn't line up properly...

A newer upper plate has a adjustable point block. Also Bratton's has a machined point block that lines up the points perfectly. https://www.brattons.com/MACHINED-DI...uctinfo/17351/

[ndnchf]

FYI - O'Reillys carries the high(er) quality Blue Streak brand points and condenser for the modern upper plate. The rubbing block on the points is a dark brown material that looks similar to what came on quality points in years past. They are copper (plated?) and have a felt pad to keep the cam lubricated with a drop or two of oil. The Blue Streak condenser is readily identified by the blue wire.

Blue Streak part numbers are:
Points: FD8183V
Condenser: FD77

You can plug the numbers into O'Reillys web site and they will come up. My local store had them in stock. I put them in my '31 CCPU. I'm going to rebuild another distributor with stock points and condenser. But I'll run these until I'm ready to change it out.

Here are the Blue Streak points next to the cheaper points with plastic rubbing block.



Steve

[nkaminar]

ndnchf: That is good info, thanks. I run the modern cam and condensor and I am happy with them but the Blue Streak parts look like better quality.

[old31]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

So you are saying sand blasting is probably not a good idea?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/32504166821...ampid%3APL_CLK

Just a little Meguiar's polish on that cam and you will be all set.

[Dirtrack49]

Does anyone have a picture of a set of original points? I am not talking about what is currently out there. I am talking about actual 1930's points.

The Napa/Echlin points that I purchased within the last year are of the proper length. That length being 1.210 inch from center of point head to point pivot. The problem is the point block wore down to nothing within 600 miles.

Anyone else out there who used Napa/Echlin points in the last couple of years run into the same problem?

As a side note, I find it incredible that vendors are making points that do not fit. One thing about the Napa/Echlin points, they do fit. However, the wear block was gone in 600 miles.
Maybe I should just bite the bullet and replace my points every 500 miles at every oil change?

[katy]

Did the rubbing block wear down because of poor material or because of the cam having a rough surface?
In my case I had installed a new, replacement "B" cam (from a reputable supplier) because I was led to believe that the "B" cam had a better profile and would produce longer dwell time. Assuming that the cam was as smooth as it should be I never thought to check the surface of it, just installed it, set the points gap and the timing. When the points rubbing block wore down in a relatively short time was when I discovered that the cam surface was quite rough and needed polishing to make it serviceable.
YMMV

[nkaminar]

One option is to eliminate the points altogether. There are electronic points available for the Model A starting at about $80. Not for the purist. You have to run a bunch of more wires. I tried this on my Model T and eventually took them off. You have to have a hot coil to have them work and they will not fire if the battery is low, so no hand cranking with a weak battery. But they don't need adjustment and will last a long long time.

[Dirtrack49]

katy,
The only thing I can come up with is the rubbing block must be made out of a poor material. My cam, which is also a "B" cam, is nice and smooth. The points that I took off, still have a very nice rubbing block on them and they have at least 1400 miles of use. I ended up putting them back on the car. That is why I am looking for a picture of original 30's points to see if that is what they are.
nkaminar,
Thanks for the thought, but I am one of those people who like things to remain original if at all possible. I also have a Model T still running the buzz boxes.

[nkaminar]

The points on my 1930 Model A, which I bought in 1960, were original Ford and lasted until I sold the car in 1967. I put many thousands of miles on the car and never changed the points or condensor. I am wondering if one could machine (or carve) a rubbing block out of Delrin to replace what is in the repo points. Delrin is a hard plastic but has Teflon in it so the friction coefficient is very low and it has good wear resistance. It will take the temperature in the distributor. It is good for 250 F.

That brings up the question of how hot is it in Dirtrack's distributor and whether that is a factor.

[Rob Doe]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

The points on my 1930 Model A, which I bought in 1960, were original Ford and lasted until I sold the car in 1967. I put many thousands of miles on the car and never changed the points or condensor. I am wondering if one could machine (or carve) a rubbing block out of Delrin to replace what is in the repo points. Delrin is a hard plastic but has Teflon in it so the friction coefficient is very low and it has good wear resistance. It will take the temperature in the distributor. It is good for 250 F.

That brings up the question of how hot is in Dirtrack's distributor and whether that is a factor.

Neil, I been wondering if a hard maple rub block could be used. I think, there were bearings made of it and used in combines fairly recently???

[old ugly]

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this is what i found from Ford, how to identify their original points set.
i couldn/t get a good photo so you have to squint.

[katy]

Originally Posted by Dirtrack49

I am looking for a picture of original 30's points to see if that is what they are.

IF the points are original they will have Ford (in script) on the movable arm.

I am wondering if one could machine (or carve) a rubbing block out of Delrin to replace what is in the repo points.

Making the rubbing block was the easy part, fastening it to the arm is what I found difficult. If one could source some tiny rivets and a rivet setting tool to match would make the job easier.
I made the rubbing block out of some 1/2" fibre board I had, similar to the original material.

[old ugly]

Originally Posted by Rob Doe

Neil, I been wondering if a hard maple rub block could be used. I think, there were bearings made of it and used in combines fairly recently???

check out post #23 from KATY

[ndnchf]

I just cleaned up and installed a set of original Ford points in a distributor I'm restoring.

[katy]

Originally Posted by ndnchf

I just cleaned up and installed a set of original Ford points in a distributor I'm restoring.

I assume those points were made by an outside supplier for Ford, I see the Ford script, what company does the other symbol represent?

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by katy

Making the rubbing block was the easy part, fastening it to the arm is what I found difficult. If one could source some tiny rivets and a rivet setting tool to match would make the job easier.
I made the rubbing block out of some 1/2" fibre board I had, similar to the original material.

Have you had any issues with the additional weight on points arm from the hardware? I would imagine the additional weight would cause point bounce at higher RPM?

[katy]

Originally Posted by Ruth

Have you had any issues with the additional weight on points arm from the hardware? I would imagine the additional weight would cause point bounce at higher RPM?

I've never noticed a problem w/point bounce, but then I don't drive it that fast, 40 MPH tops, if that. That's only about 1700-1800 engine RPM, distributor is 1/2 of that.
Thanks to Bob B for the chart

[nkaminar]

McMaster Carr has tons of different rivets and the tools to set them. The hollow rivets start at .156 diameter but one could make hollow rivets out of other types by drilling out the end.

[ndnchf]

Originally Posted by katy

I assume those points were made by an outside supplier for Ford, I see the Ford script, what company does the other symbol represent?

I don't know who's symbol that is. But I have several with the same symbol and Ford script. Maybe someone else knows?

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by katy

I assume those points were made by an outside supplier for Ford, I see the Ford script, what company does the other symbol represent?

In the picture Old Ugly posted in #46 it mentions the trademarks along with the Ford script but does not say if they are Ford trademarks or an other manufacturer trademarks.

[Dirtrack49]

katy, ndnchf,
That is what I needed to know. The points that I just put back in do not have those markings. I can not find any marks on them at all. They appear to have a plastic rubbing block.
The Napa CS30 points are pictured below. The block lasted 612 miles.