Help- 1935-1936 Ford 3.54 gears in a 33-34 rear end?

[Chris]

I know you can do it, my question is how? I have two sets of original Ford 3.54 (39-11) gears from a 35-36 rear end, and I want to put them each in my 33 pickup and my 34 roadster. Both are the late 33-34 rear ends with the "star" shaped end on the torque tube. What is the difference, and what does it take to make them work? Any help would be great!

[JM 35 Sedan]

I know I have one, maybe two written procedures on how to put the later gears in the earlier rears, saved in my computer files. I can't access those files right now because I only have my smart phone and I can't access those files on this phone. I believe one procedure was written by Richard Lacy and posted here some time ago. Have you possibly checked in the archived files here to see if you could find any information there? Unless somebody else posts it first, I could send this to you tomorrow. Send me a pm with your email address if you would like me to send you a copy tomorrow.
Cheers...

[Straightpipes]

I did the exact same thing on my 34 pickup. This is from memory which is fading rapidly.......
1. The biggest issue is the fact that the 35/36 pinion is too large to go into the casing. The pinion must be turned down to fit into the earlier bearing housing and using the 33/34 bearings.
2. The pinion gear won't fit thru the opening and must be ground to give enough clearance.
3. Some of the ring gears are too wide and will hit against the axle housing. Notice that the 33/34 has a step on the back side where the 35/36 doesn't. I ground a little off of mine in that area, I think around .020".
4. The later pinion is 1/2" longer than the early one. You will have to shorten the driveshaft.
I think thats it...........
If anybody has a 3.54 gear set for sale I'm looking for one.

[Randy]

You'll have to machine the o.d. of the pinion gear teeth down so they'll fit through the hole in the banjo to install the pinion gear assembly. If your gears are the '35-36 with a 10 spline pinion, you'll have to shorten your '34 driveshaft by 1/2" and install a 1/2" spacer over the pinion and between the front pinion bearing and the pinion nuts. If your later gears are the '37 and up with a 6 spline pinion, then you'll have to machine a 6-10 spline adaptor to replace the 10 spline coupler in the driveshaft to wind up with 6 spline at the pinion gear end. Sometimes, you have to take a little off of the o.d. of the ring gear teeth for clearance on the i.d. of the banjo, but not always. Unless I forgot something, that's it. I can't remember if the pinion gear front bearing surfaces require machining or not, you'll just have to measure and compare to the bearing i.d.

[Chris]

Thanks a lot guys! More to it then I thought but not that complicated.

[franksford]

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If you deside not to go that route i'm looking for a set of 3:54 or 3:76 =10 spline for my 36. Frank [email protected]

[NealinCA]

On a side note, I have a 33-34 rearend that someone put a 35-36 3.54 banjo in. Rather than swap the gears, they swapped in the whole banjo. They had to shim the carrier bearings to make up for the 1/4" difference in banjo width. I am not sure what they did for axles...

Neal

[Chris]

Here is some info someone posted on the Hamb for me:

• '35-'48 R&P in '32-'34 rear:Sheldon will give you all the straight scoop & all the details. Short version... Take the pinions (both 34, and 35-up) to a flathead-savy guy with a crankshaft grinder, and he'll know what to do.
• 
  Second shortest version... The outer diameter of the pinion teeth needs to be reduced a little, to fit in the hole in the banjo housing. The pinion shaft, where the bearing(s) ride, needs to be reduced to 33-34 specs. A savy flathead guy will notice that this diameter is 'stepped' by about a half-thou, closest to pinion larger, closest to nut smaller (for ease of bearing on/off). You'll need a 'spacer' (bushing) to make up for difference in pinion shaft length, about 1/2 or 9/16 length (this will be obvious, when you compare the two pinions, 34 & 35-up). Some guys (Two, are Richard on the barn, or Krehbiel-club rear-end guru) have noted that there is a steering box bearing race that fits the bill for this spacer. For my own rear end, I just looked in a box of old front wheel bearings, and found a race that works. Next, you will need to find out if there is interference between the back-side of the ring gear, and the 34 'bell'. If yes, need to grind a little off the backside of the gear, at the outer edge. (Not always required.) Richard & I have both posted that we did this by hand. If you have a lathe, better. Finally, driveshaft mods, to suit. If using 35-38, 10-spline pinion, just need to shorten driveshaft appropriately, about 1/2-to-9/16-in. If using 6-spline pinion (more common), need to change coupler on back of 34 driveshaft, along with the shortening. The point here is to get a driveshaft with correct length, and with speedo gear appropriately visible where it is supposed to be. On my own car, I found the original, stock 34 driveshaft was made on the 'short-side' from the factory, so no change of driveshaft length was requried.
  This has all been written-up in detail, here, and in old V8-Times, and probably other places.
  Here's is another way, which I have never tried. If you read (tech-site) rumbleseats write-up on how he put a 46-style Columbia into his 34, you can get an idea on how to do it. The possible advantage of this way is that you will have the larger, 35-48 pinion bearing, and no machine-work on the pinion, but custom machine-work on the axles. Paul used his 34 bells, modified 34 driveshaft, 34 wishbones, along with a 35-up (46) banjo assembly. I'm not sure which axles he used, although I'm thinking he must have used 37-41-style axles, with a little machine work on the outer ends to make the appropriate length. As said, he installed a Columbia, but I'm sure you can pick out the appropriate details to do it without the Columbia. This method will increase the track width a little, about 3/8, the banjo housing difference. If there is a 'next time' for me, I plan to try this method. Some other misc notes by Richard (EV8G): On Paul's method: the 35-48 banjo housingis also longer where it projects forward tothe torque tube, so if using a late32-33-34 torque tube, will also need to compensate for that AND enlarge the hole at the rear of the torque tube to fit/retain the larger pinion bearing race OR whack the rear flange off a 35+ tube and transplant it to the late32-33-34 at the correct length. Make sure the oil drainback hole is still there and in the correct locat1on. As I recall, Paul also inverted/swapped the axle housings to lower the spring perches and thereby lower the rear of his car while retaining the original rear spring. The gears I used were Richmond that I got many years ago from Patrick's in AZ. They run quiet; people had told me they wouldn't, so maybe THEY had set-up issues??? Maybe the ring gear didn't clear the LH housing? Another side-trip: IF the car is way lower in front than rear, it is a good idea to install a seal at the rear of the torque tube to keep the rear gear oil from migrating into the torque tube. Otherwise, have to periodically drive uphill!!!

• '48 R&P Gears in and early ('32 to '34) rear:The 48 carrier is the same dimensions as the 33 EXCEPT that the ends where the carrier bearings press on is longer, but can be used in the earlier rear by letting the extra protrude through the race and into the bell. IF all the stuff in your 33 is good enough to use, you should use it all and just change the ring gear and pinion. Short version: Grind the pinion shaft down to 33 specs; the bearing toward the rear should be a press fit, while the bearing toward the front should be snug/not sloppy to allow it to move when setting the bearing pre-load Grind the OD of the pinion gear enough to allow it to pass through the 33 center housing hole Make an approx 1/2" spacer (as Lawrie said) to compensate for the longer pinion shaft and allow setting the pre-load on the pinion bearings; a 32-34 steering upper worm bearing race works well for this Shorten the rear of the driveshaft to compensate for the longer pinion shaft AND change it to 6-spline female; half of a 6x6 driveshaft coupling works, but will require a bushing to compensate for the difference in OD vs. tube ID Relieve the reverse side of the ring gear at the outer edge so that it will not rub on the inside of the LH axle housing After all of the above is completed, assembly and set-up are as-usual procedure ...unless I forgot something???

[Jason in TX]

Originally Posted by NealinCA

On a side note, I have a 33-34 rearend that someone put a 35-36 3.54 banjo in. Rather than swap the gears, they swapped in the whole banjo. They had to shim the carrier bearings to make up for the 1/4" difference in banjo width. I am not sure what they did for axles...
Neal

So, are you saying that you could put a 48 center section on 33-34 axle bells with a little shimming? hmm Would the 33-34 axles work with the 48 carrier?

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Jason in TX

So, are you saying that you could put a 48 center section on 33-34 axle bells with a little shimming? hmm Would the 33-34 axles work with the 48 carrier?

Yeah, got anymore light to shed Neil?

[bobH]

Interesting post by Chris in WA, above... at least interesting to me. There are a whole bunch of words there that I recognize, as I penned them, many moons ago. Of course, along the way, it has received some 'polishing', editing, correcting, and additions. How it ever got to the hamb, ??? And, who did the polishing, editing, correcting, etc ??
On Neal's post... usually the 35-41-style axles, with mods posted by rumbleseat Paul. Not a conversion that most of us should consider. IMO
To Jason, on the same post... I wouldn't recommend it. However, read what rumbleseat did, and decide for yourself. (tech site -- billB) JMO

[Chris]

Originally Posted by bobH

Interesting post by Chris in WA, above... at least interesting to me. There are a whole bunch of words there that I recognize, as I penned them, many moons ago. Of course, along the way, it has received some 'polishing', editing, correcting, and additions. How it ever got to the hamb, ??? And, who did the polishing, editing, correcting, etc ??
On Neal's post... usually the 35-41-style axles, with mods posted by rumbleseat Paul. Not a conversion that most of us should consider. IMO
To Jason, on the same post... I wouldn't recommend it. However, read what rumbleseat did, and decide for yourself. (tech site -- billB) JMO

I duuno BobH, I just coppied and pasted what was posted on the Hamb board. Good info though!

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Chris

I duuno BobH, I just coppied and pasted what was posted on the Hamb board. Good info though!

Some parts of that same write up appear to be the work of Richard Lacy as well. I believe a 'hamber' probably copied most all of that info here on FB and reposted it over there for you. I guess it really doesn't matter that much as long as the 'fine tuning' is still accurate information.

[Strick]

believe there's also a couple of older V8 Times articles on pinion & ring gear late.....to early exchange. i'll have to find the year and month. one was written by Ken Showers.

[columbiA]

33-34 axles are too short if you use 35-48 banjo.Use 35-38,18 tooth axles & 12 tooth spiders or the 39-41 16 tooth axles & 11 tooth spiders. Vol 38 # 2,page 17-18 of theV8 TIMES has the article on fitting 35-48 ring & pinion in late 32-34 banjo.

[40Pickup]

[QUOTE=columbiA;369973]33-34 axles are too short if you use 35-48 banjo.Use 35-38,18 tooth axles & 12 tooth spiders or the 39-41 16 tooth axles & 11 tooth spiders. Vol 38 # 2,page 17-18 of theV8 TIMES has the article on fitting 35-48 ring & pinion in late 32-34 banjo.[/QUOTE]

Could you please take a copy of that article and put it in here so we all can read the article. Or is there another way to read the article?


/ Jorgen

[HotRodmicky]

There is no 32-34 banjo center with later axles and bells that work without machining
soloution.
You can use a 35-48 center and axles, 33-34 bells and remachine the axles cone so
drums will be back in their original position

I would machine the 35-36 10 spline 3.54 pinion that the early pinion bearings fit.

Then it is a bolt in deal

No rework of the driveshaft etc.

I like simple soloutions...

Michael

[40Pickup]

Michael, I agree with you!
But as someone said, You will get many answers here! Then you have to sort them out to suit you best.

/ Jorgen

[Randy]

Except that the '35-'36 pinion will still be 1/2 inch too long, requiring shortening the driveshaft 1/2 inch OR sliding the driveshaft back on the pinion gear 1/2 inch and redrilling the hole, also requiring trimming the back of the 10 spline coupler on the driveshaft to allow it to slide back on the pinion that far. Turning the pinion teeth down to fit into the '34 banjo and then the machine work on the front pinion bearing surface would still be required.

The reason for the 1/2 of additional pinion length, is that Ford extended the torque tube flange 1/2 inch forward from the '34 and earlier dimension, on the '35-'48 banjo center sections, so the '35 and later pinion gears are also 1/2 inch longer.

[Chris]

Could you simply slide the driveline back a 1/2" and re drill the hole? Even if you had to cut a little bit off the back of the driveline. Or cut 1/2" off the front of the pinion splines and redrill the hole...just thinking out loud