The Ford Barn

sidhartha · 03-19-2013, 08:41 PM

I bought a 31 Tudor last spring and I am learning more and more about them all the time. Reading all the post has given me a lot of insight and questions. Some a little late of course but its all a part of learning.
I've been fighting an overheating issue from the time I brought it home. A chemical block test has shown that I have exhaust gas getting into my cooling system so I bought a used motor to put in it. I'm hoping it will get me by until I can rebuild the one I'm taking out. I wanted to see what the inside of the used motor looked like and if it had any improvements done to it. Its clean with no sludge and original style bearings and valves. I have dropped the pan and removed all the gasket material (I didn't know about the tabs on the pan gasket until I read it in one of the threads) and put a new timing gear in it. Ive got Les Andrews manual as a guide to work on it but am unclear on one little detail. The book states that the rope like packing should be oil soaked and left untrimmed before you put it in the pan and timing cover. Now my question is what is meant by oil soaked? Should I put the packing in oil to soak for a few days or just coat them good before installing them in the motor? Do I need to trim them after I put them in or will they crush to fit? I know it sounds like dumb questions but I am finding that some of the engineering on these motors are nothing like I've ever seen before.
I have also noticed that the pan on the used motor is a newer style and the old motor is an early 28 pan with the clean out plate. Should I use the older style pan? It sounds like it is preferred from reading the forums. Will the shield on the newer pump even work in the older pan?

1crosscut · 03-19-2013, 09:49 PM

In regards to your first issue on the engine overheating and exhaust gases in your coolant have you considered pulling the head and replacing the head gasket first? If you don't have any cracks and it is flat that might be the only fix you need. Be a heck of a lot simpler that swaping out engines. Another thing that might be contributing to over heating is a build up of rust particles etc... in the top tank of the radiator blocking the tubes. Have you tried pulling the radiator out and back flushing it?

Milton · 03-19-2013, 10:38 PM

Soak them in motor oil overnight and the seal halves will then be able to crush down without trimming.

PC/SR · 03-19-2013, 10:44 PM

I do the same as Milton. No problems.

columbiA · 03-19-2013, 11:36 PM

If you mean the shield that fits betweenthe oil pump & block,then you should use the 31 pan.In late31 the dipper tray was lowered 1/8" by raising the bead in the dipper tray by 1/8".The shield should not be used with the earlier dipper tray.The pan with the clean-out plate was a 1928 feature and the extra gasket is another potential oil leak.

sidhartha · 03-20-2013, 04:05 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Yes, I have replaced the head and gasket. It did not help at all. I have also changed the water pump, added a themostat and checked the radiator flow to no avail. I can drive about 4 miles and it overheats. I am stumped as to what the problem is. I have a used motor that I know runs, I figure I can swap them out and tear down the old one to find the problem. I am planning to go with a 4 blade fan and newer radiator as well. As to the oil pan I think I will go with newer style and keep the car proper for the late 31 that it is..

jhowes · 03-20-2013, 04:21 PM

According to a report in the Model A Times, the 4 blade fan will do nothing for your heating problem. You may want it for other reasons.????????????

George Miller · 03-20-2013, 04:33 PM

Are you sure you have the timing right on. If to slow it will cause it to heat.

Duffy1 · 03-20-2013, 04:53 PM

Do a search . Nine times out of ten it is a bad radiator . Radiators can flow great but if the fins are not connected to the tubes there will be no heat transfer .

V4F · 03-20-2013, 04:58 PM

on your pan gaskets . the white one (front) does need to be soaked like over nite .
the rear (cork) soak it in water so it will bend correctly .

1931 flamingo · 03-20-2013, 05:54 PM

sidhartha: So you've changed the head gasket, waterpump and added a t/stat, BEFORE you go changing engines, make sure the timing is set correctly AND that when driving your advancing the timing (left lever on the steering column). Get the new radiator that you were going to install with the used engine (or flush the original one). FWIW
paul in CT

Mikeinnj · 03-20-2013, 07:07 PM

Did you have the head magna-fluxed and surfaced by a machine shop to insure it is flat and has no cracks ? Check the deck surface of the block also for cracks since getting combustion gasses in the water is really the source of the overheating problem. When installing the head it must be torqued in sequence and in progressive amounts. Always use a new gasket. Also check the impeller on the water pump to see if it is worn.

sidhartha · 03-20-2013, 08:43 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions. It has a New Rex Electronic ignition on it and I have set and reset the timing with the New Rex timing wrench. My early mistake was not operating the timing advance properly, but now I know how to work that I still have the same problem. The old copper head gasket showed no sign of burning between the water jackets and combustion exhaust port areas. I checked the deck and head with a 3 foot straight edge and they are flat. The head is 5.5:1 compression newly purchased from Snyders and is installed with a model B (not Copper) head gasket. since it was new I did not Magna-flux it. The water pump is also new as well. I am using the 4 blade fan because it came on the used motor and I figured if it moves more air it couldn't hurt. The old motor has been hot several times. The guy told that they had a problem with it overheating while in parades. Of course I was caught up in the purchase of the car and it did not register. It might be to good to note that I am not I am not getting oil in the water or water in the oil. I should mention to that I flushed the system and put some CLR through it, but I wouldn't think that could have hurt anything. I may just change the radiator this weekend and see what that does. The other motor is on the stand so I will go ahead and put it back together and have it ready if I need. maybe take some time and install a touring cam as well.

bill44 · 03-20-2013, 09:00 PM

I had the same problem, and did everything I could think of except the radiator. Everyone in my club kept telling me to replace the radiator including Les Andrews. I finally gave in and got it recored. It runs cool without problems now. I just was overlooking the obvious. Don't forget to re-torque you head at least 3 to 4 times.

redmodelt · 03-21-2013, 11:29 AM

"A chemical block test has shown that I have exhaust gas getting into my cooling system " Could be a crack in the exhaust seat allowing the exhaust to push into the cooling system. It can be fixed by pinning and valve seat replacement but may be more work then you want to spend. If you want to save the old block then it needs to be cleaned and pressure tested.

columbiA · 03-21-2013, 10:04 PM

No need for a 4-blade fan.It will only make it dificult to remove the water pump at a later date.Get the alum fan sold by the vendors & it will look original.Because of the cost of a recore or new rad most people seem to try everything else before they bite the bullet & replace the rad & cure the problem.Also the block should be flushed out as well.

03-19-2013, 08:41 PM	#1
sidhartha Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Indiana Posts: 157	Oil pan gasket question from a newbie I bought a 31 Tudor last spring and I am learning more and more about them all the time. Reading all the post has given me a lot of insight and questions. Some a little late of course but its all a part of learning. I've been fighting an overheating issue from the time I brought it home. A chemical block test has shown that I have exhaust gas getting into my cooling system so I bought a used motor to put in it. I'm hoping it will get me by until I can rebuild the one I'm taking out. I wanted to see what the inside of the used motor looked like and if it had any improvements done to it. Its clean with no sludge and original style bearings and valves. I have dropped the pan and removed all the gasket material (I didn't know about the tabs on the pan gasket until I read it in one of the threads) and put a new timing gear in it. Ive got Les Andrews manual as a guide to work on it but am unclear on one little detail. The book states that the rope like packing should be oil soaked and left untrimmed before you put it in the pan and timing cover. Now my question is what is meant by oil soaked? Should I put the packing in oil to soak for a few days or just coat them good before installing them in the motor? Do I need to trim them after I put them in or will they crush to fit? I know it sounds like dumb questions but I am finding that some of the engineering on these motors are nothing like I've ever seen before. I have also noticed that the pan on the used motor is a newer style and the old motor is an early 28 pan with the clean out plate. Should I use the older style pan? It sounds like it is preferred from reading the forums. Will the shield on the newer pump even work in the older pan?

03-19-2013, 09:49 PM	#2
1crosscut Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Lincoln, Nebraska Posts: 1,907	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie In regards to your first issue on the engine overheating and exhaust gases in your coolant have you considered pulling the head and replacing the head gasket first? If you don't have any cracks and it is flat that might be the only fix you need. Be a heck of a lot simpler that swaping out engines. Another thing that might be contributing to over heating is a build up of rust particles etc... in the top tank of the radiator blocking the tubes. Have you tried pulling the radiator out and back flushing it? __________________ Dave / Lincoln Nebraska

03-19-2013, 10:38 PM	#3
Milton Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 837	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie Soak them in motor oil overnight and the seal halves will then be able to crush down without trimming.

03-19-2013, 10:44 PM	#4
PC/SR Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 1,278	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie I do the same as Milton. No problems.

03-19-2013, 11:36 PM	#5
columbiA Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 1,746	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie If you mean the shield that fits betweenthe oil pump & block,then you should use the 31 pan.In late31 the dipper tray was lowered 1/8" by raising the bead in the dipper tray by 1/8".The shield should not be used with the earlier dipper tray.The pan with the clean-out plate was a 1928 feature and the extra gasket is another potential oil leak.

03-20-2013, 04:05 PM	#6
sidhartha Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Indiana Posts: 157	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Yes, I have replaced the head and gasket. It did not help at all. I have also changed the water pump, added a themostat and checked the radiator flow to no avail. I can drive about 4 miles and it overheats. I am stumped as to what the problem is. I have a used motor that I know runs, I figure I can swap them out and tear down the old one to find the problem. I am planning to go with a 4 blade fan and newer radiator as well. As to the oil pan I think I will go with newer style and keep the car proper for the late 31 that it is..

03-20-2013, 04:21 PM	#7
jhowes Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: upstate NY near Mass border Posts: 789	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie According to a report in the Model A Times, the 4 blade fan will do nothing for your heating problem. You may want it for other reasons.????????????

03-20-2013, 04:33 PM	#8
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie Are you sure you have the timing right on. If to slow it will cause it to heat.

03-20-2013, 04:53 PM	#9
Duffy1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Mo. City , Texas Posts: 725	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie Do a search . Nine times out of ten it is a bad radiator . Radiators can flow great but if the fins are not connected to the tubes there will be no heat transfer .

03-20-2013, 04:58 PM	#10
V4F Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ca. Posts: 2,522	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie on your pan gaskets . the white one (front) does need to be soaked like over nite . the rear (cork) soak it in water so it will bend correctly . __________________ V4f

03-20-2013, 05:54 PM	#11
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie sidhartha: So you've changed the head gasket, waterpump and added a t/stat, BEFORE you go changing engines, make sure the timing is set correctly AND that when driving your advancing the timing (left lever on the steering column). Get the new radiator that you were going to install with the used engine (or flush the original one). FWIW paul in CT

03-20-2013, 07:07 PM	#12
Mikeinnj Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Northern New Jersey Posts: 1,262	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie Did you have the head magna-fluxed and surfaced by a machine shop to insure it is flat and has no cracks ? Check the deck surface of the block also for cracks since getting combustion gasses in the water is really the source of the overheating problem. When installing the head it must be torqued in sequence and in progressive amounts. Always use a new gasket. Also check the impeller on the water pump to see if it is worn. Last edited by Mikeinnj; 03-20-2013 at 07:08 PM. Reason: added info

03-20-2013, 08:43 PM	#13
sidhartha Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Indiana Posts: 157	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie Thanks for all the suggestions. It has a New Rex Electronic ignition on it and I have set and reset the timing with the New Rex timing wrench. My early mistake was not operating the timing advance properly, but now I know how to work that I still have the same problem. The old copper head gasket showed no sign of burning between the water jackets and combustion exhaust port areas. I checked the deck and head with a 3 foot straight edge and they are flat. The head is 5.5:1 compression newly purchased from Snyders and is installed with a model B (not Copper) head gasket. since it was new I did not Magna-flux it. The water pump is also new as well. I am using the 4 blade fan because it came on the used motor and I figured if it moves more air it couldn't hurt. The old motor has been hot several times. The guy told that they had a problem with it overheating while in parades. Of course I was caught up in the purchase of the car and it did not register. It might be to good to note that I am not I am not getting oil in the water or water in the oil. I should mention to that I flushed the system and put some CLR through it, but I wouldn't think that could have hurt anything. I may just change the radiator this weekend and see what that does. The other motor is on the stand so I will go ahead and put it back together and have it ready if I need. maybe take some time and install a touring cam as well.

03-20-2013, 09:00 PM	#14
bill44 Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Auburn, CA Posts: 64	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie I had the same problem, and did everything I could think of except the radiator. Everyone in my club kept telling me to replace the radiator including Les Andrews. I finally gave in and got it recored. It runs cool without problems now. I just was overlooking the obvious. Don't forget to re-torque you head at least 3 to 4 times.

03-21-2013, 11:29 AM	#15
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,340	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie "A chemical block test has shown that I have exhaust gas getting into my cooling system " Could be a crack in the exhaust seat allowing the exhaust to push into the cooling system. It can be fixed by pinning and valve seat replacement but may be more work then you want to spend. If you want to save the old block then it needs to be cleaned and pressure tested.

03-21-2013, 10:04 PM	#16
columbiA Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 1,746	Re: Oil pan gasket question from a newbie No need for a 4-blade fan.It will only make it dificult to remove the water pump at a later date.Get the alum fan sold by the vendors & it will look original.Because of the cost of a recore or new rad most people seem to try everything else before they bite the bullet & replace the rad & cure the problem.Also the block should be flushed out as well.