New hi compression heads

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

I seem to remember synders heads many times need to be milled. I was wondering if it was baked in an oven for a few hrs, then milled,would that help alleviate future warping? Appreciate your insight and experiences. Thanks. Chuck

[Tom Wesenberg]

Is this true, or is this another old wive's tale?
I wouldn't think a new head should need to be milled, but I haven't installed many either.
I will check mine before I install it.

[zzlegend]

For what its worth, I just installed a new Snyder's 6.1 head about 4 months ago. Was it straight? Yes it was. No milling involved. I think Tod posted on this a while back, and said no new head should need milling. I will never understand why people mill a perfectly good head to up the compression. Why not just by the head needed. They are very reasonably priced I think. Just my 2 1/2 cents.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

I seem to remember synders heads many times need to be milled. I was wondering if it was baked in an oven for a few hrs, then milled,would that help alleviate future warping? Appreciate your insight and experiences. Thanks. Chuck

Chuck, I too have installed the Snyder's heads without issue. Quite honestly, my personal experiences was it was the Brumfield heads that had the issues, -and not Snyders. Not always was the BF head needing trued out of the box, however more often than not, as soon as the engine was run thru a few heat cycles, then when checked they were always off.

[Jason in TX]

X2 on the Brumfield not being flat. My Snyders has been bolt on and go.

[J and M Machine]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Is this true, or is this another old wive's tale?
I wouldn't think a new head should need to be milled, but I haven't installed many either.
I will check mine before I install it.

I'm glad to see that people aren't having problems with the Snyder's head.

However every head that we have installed so far and most recently a week ago needed to be resurfaced.

We have in the past posted regarding the Snyder higher compression head and it's minus of surface finish and also the boss height being too high.
As far as we're concerned it hasn't been corrected.
I am enclosing pictures with layout blue showing the flatness of the head.
We removed .004" and the center cleaned up another .004" and the rest cleaned up.

We've had quite the contrary experience with Brumfield heads. Early on and used them right up until the end that they were no longer available.
We can honestly say we had a 95% success rate out of the box.
Naturally there will always be the ones who fail to retorque head and then blame the head. As long as head is flat to begin with you've minimized the failure.



To answer Mr.Wesenberg: You're right; one shouldn't have to resurface a new cylinder head. We would recommend you have it checked and also retap spark plug holes as that's another area needing to be checked.

[29spcoupe]

I installed my Snyder's head right out of the box. Checked it for flatness, used the gasket they recommended and have had no problems for 1000 miles. John

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

We have found the same as J. & M. Machine!

Herm.

KohnkeRebabbittingService.com

[Jason in TX]

I had a head gasket blow and discovered that my Brumfield head was low in the center where the head gasket failed. I noticed that a few people mentioned that the head is not supported at this area. This may be the possible reason.

Anyways, I brought the head to my buddy's shop, Day Custom Engine and we had to skim off .010 to get the head flat again. It was also slightly warped at the front by the drivers front of the head but only by .003. Torquing head bolts would have corrected that, but I now have a truly flat head. You can see the pictures and video below.

Area drawn with sharpie is the low spot....




..so we built up a support table on his high speed mill..







Fired up the mill. You can watch the video below...

LINK TO VIDEO



Here we are at about .007. Notice the center is still low and hasn't been cut yet.




And after the last pass at .010. Flat head again!

[/QUOTE]

[Chris Haynes]

I think you mean that area was high, not low?

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

I think you mean that area was high, not low?

If you're standing upright and the head is upside down as in the pictures, that center area is "low". On the other hand, if you're laying on the floor on your back and holding the head above you, that area is "high"!

[zzlegend]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

If you're standing upright and the head is upside down as in the pictures, that center area is "low". On the other hand, if you're laying on the floor on your back and holding the head above you, that area is "high"!

X2,,,,,,,,my thinking also.

[J and M Machine]

Originally Posted by jason in tx

i had a head gasket blow and discovered that my brumfield head was low in the center where the head gasket failed. I noticed that a few people mentioned that the head is not supported at this area. This may be the possible reason.

Anyways, i brought the head to my buddy's shop, day custom engine and we had to skim off .010 to get the head flat again. It was also slightly warped at the front by the drivers front of the head but only by .003. Torquing head bolts would have corrected that, but i now have a truly flat head. You can see the pictures and video below.

Area drawn with sharpie is the low spot....




..so we built up a support table on his high speed mill..







fired up the mill. You can watch the video below...

link to video



here we are at about .007. Notice the center is still low and hasn't been cut yet.




and after the last pass at .010. Flat head again!

[/quote]

[J and M Machine]

Jason In Texas: I think you missed the point of this posting.
This posting is about new heads that need to be machined out of the box.
Your Brumfield head looks to me that is has been on your vehicle for years.
I understand that it's warped, looks to me from overheating as I mentioned in my earlier post.
Really doesn't have anything to do with the initial posters concern other than you resurfaced a Brumfield head and the pictures to prove it after it's been used.
Drilling the steam holes in the center didn't help either as Brumfield always spec'ed an R1-R3 gasket not Model B.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Two hours ago, I was typing a similar reply as J and M Machine eventually posted, but I got interrupted and only now am able to finish mine. Now I see that J and M Machine has made points similar to the ones I was going to post. I've modified my reply so as not to appear to be "jumping on the bandwagon".
Even if the head in question was as flat as the proverbial board when the owner received and installed it, using a Model B gasket will virtually GUARANTEE premature gasket failure. That gasket is not the one that Brumfield specifies and in fact insists upon. A Model B gasket will burn out prematurely as the flame will go over the fire ring on a Brumfield Head.
Moreover, someone drilled a couple of extra water holes not specified by Brumfield. Not only could this weaken the chamber near its edge, it also will not allow the specified gasket (Fel-Pro 7013 C) to be used because it would barely cover the holes with almost no gasket at all.
That discolored metal in the center of the head says it all. ANY cylinder head can warp after a blowout if it gets hot enough. In this case, the blowout was made easier by using the wrong gasket. Improper use of the spark lever could also contribute to a head gasket blowing out. Just the fact the wrong gasket was installed was enough to make the gasket blowout.
Hopefully the correct head gasket will be used this time around. I'd like to hear down the road if that solves the "warpage" and blown head gasket problem for Jason.
Marshall

[Marshall V. Daut]

By the way, I am assuming a Model B head gasket was used because of the two holes drilled in the Brumfield head. These holes could only be used if a Model B head gasket were installed. If, however, the correct and recommended gasket had been used, those two unplugged holes would compromise that area and would contribute to a blowout. This is akin to the four "steam" holes (or aids in the casting process) in a Model B block needing to be plugged if a Model A head and gasket are installed. Leakage, seeping and eventual blowout are to be anticipated if those holes are not plugged if anything but a Model B cylinder head with matching holes is installed.
Marshall

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by J and M Machine

Jason In Texas: I think you missed the point of this posting.
This posting is about new heads that need to be machined out of the box.
Your Brumfield head looks to me that is has been on your vehicle for years.
I understand that it's warped, looks to me from overheating as I mentioned in my earlier post.
Really doesn't have anything to do with the initial posters concern other than you resurfaced a Brumfield head and the pictures to prove it after it's been used.
Drilling the steam holes in the center didn't help either as Brumfield always spec'ed an R1-R3 gasket not Model B.

It does look like the Head got hot, as it is really colored between cylinders 2 & 3. I also wondered what those two extra holes were doing between cylinders two, and three. It probably weakened it, in that area, it don't take much. If the recommended gasket was used on it, Fel Pro 7013, it might not have worked right!

Herm.

KohnkeRebabbittingService.com

[Wick]

I purchased my 6.0 head at Hershey from Schwalm they surface the head so your good to go.
I love that head. Will buy another one this year.

[John/CT]

Last week we had a customer’s new Snyder’s 5.5:1 head shipped directly to the machine shop. We were there when the machinist opened the UPS box. The spark plug holes were tapped to a taper and had to be re-tapped so the plugs will seat properly. The stud bosses were different heights and had to be milled to make them even. The block mating surface of the head was out of flatness too and had to be milled. The first .001 pass contacted about 30% of the surface. Snyder’s recommended gasket may have taken up the difference temporarily, but our club does a lot of touring and, with proper maintenance and periodic adjustments, the engine should be expected to last 30,000 miles.

[Fordfan29]

My new 6:1 Snyder head was not flat when received a couple f years ago. They offered to trade me for another head & it had taken three weeks to get the first one. I had a local shop mill the original head and Snyders reimbursed my costs. I also installed their recommended gasket with the silicone ridges & torqued & retorqued to their instructions. I had a gasket failure but a copper gasket & the flattened head have been doing their job ever since. The block was checked & found to be flat.

[Jason in TX]

Originally Posted by J and M Machine

Jason In Texas: I think you missed the point of this posting.
This posting is about new heads that need to be machined out of the box.
Your Brumfield head looks to me that is has been on your vehicle for years.
I understand that it's warped, looks to me from overheating as I mentioned in my earlier post.
Really doesn't have anything to do with the initial posters concern other than you resurfaced a Brumfield head and the pictures to prove it after it's been used.
Drilling the steam holes in the center didn't help either as Brumfield always spec'ed an R1-R3 gasket not Model B.

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

I seem to remember synders heads many times need to be milled. I was wondering if it was baked in an oven for a few hrs, then milled,would that help alleviate future warping? Appreciate your insight and experiences. Thanks. Chuck

Hi J and M Machine. People responding to each other's posts. Your response in #6 wasn't to the original poster. It was to Tom Wesenberg, and also made reference to Brent and myself. I just posted my experience.

I also noticed that you think you answered the original poster's question of milling a head"new out of the box" but he actually asked about heads that have been through hot cycles needing milling and if he should preheat his head a few times and then mill it to prevent the future warping that is associated with hot used heads.

I feel I did not miss the point at all showing pictures of my hot used head and the amount of milling I had to do. The original poster states that he appreciates us sharing our insights and experiences.

I did not put those steam holes in my head either. This head was on my car when I bought it. The head is also not low where the steam holes are. That area didn't warp.

We all thank you for your input and sharing your knowledge. It is ok for multiple sources to share their personal experiences and it is ok that other peoples personal experiences differ from yours. The average high temperature for the year in Southborough MA is 64 degrees and average low is 45 degrees. The average high temperature for the year where I am is 84 degrees and the minimum is 65 degrees. We all experience different lives.

[Jason in TX]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

Hopefully the correct head gasket will be used this time around. I'd like to hear down the road if that solves the "warpage" and blown head gasket problem for Jason.
Marshall

The Brumfield head formed a crack in the dome of the combustion chamber a few years later and leaked water into my cylinders. I only discovered this when I would park my car for a few weeks and then when I would go to start it, it would blow sooty water out of the tail pipe. Looking back at my pictutures, it came from those steam holes that I had no idea shouldn't be there until now, so you're right. Those holes are no good.

Because the head was cracked, I threw it in the trash and went with a Snyders head. I've since driven the car all over Texas, Colorado, New Mexico, and Wyoming's Grand Tetons and Yellowstone. Working great!

[Tom Wesenberg]

"The average high temperature for the year in Southborough MA is 64 degrees and average low is 45 degrees. The average high temperature for the year where I am is 84 degrees and the minimum is 65 degrees."

Holy buckets, both places sure beat the heck out of Minnesota weather.

[J and M Machine]

Could of fooled us about Average temperature here this year.
You're right about the holes being no good if your engine is a Model A doesn't serve any purpose I also see that head is cracked and that's from overheating.

Looking closely at the deck surface of the un machined head I can see a "This side up "
Evidently must not of been a copper gasket. Brumfield was a stickler to have the correct copper gasket under his heads.

Too bad you threw the head away as there was one on ebay and went for three hundred dollars that was cracked. We could of easily repaired it and plugged the holes.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Hi, Chuck in Sea/Tac -
Here's a link to an interesting read written by Larry Brumfield that is published on the Ford Garage's web site. It may provide answers to your original question, as well as present insights to the rest of us Model A guys interested in higher compression heads and their manufacture: http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/headflatness.htm.
Marshall

[[email protected]]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

In the last couple of months I was made aware of some local fellow club members (3 total) having gasket failures with the new gasket and the Synder's High compression head. Upon head removal for gasket replacement they had their heads machine checked and surfaced. They were all over .010 to 0.12 from flat. They assumed these heads were bolt on. Maybe though this warpage was brought on by being on the engine..

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Well, I didn’t heat the head, but it wasn’t level and the machine shop took .007” off before it cleaned up. Not real happy about that.

[1930artdeco]

I bolted my 5.5 Snyder head on and she leaked. Took it to a shop and killed her flat. Ever since then it has been great. Not upset.

Mike