The Ford Barn

UPS Driver · 07-31-2022, 04:48 AM

Steering box is a little bit loose and I’m wondering what I have it’s marked Gemmer 2 or 7 tooth
Also when I turned on headlights the ammeter went into a 10 amp discharge ( has a NU-Rex 6volt positive ground alternator) belt probably had an inch inch and a half play VERY loose is it possible this is a culprit for a no charge problem? Thank you to all for the help !
Brian

rotorwrench · 07-31-2022, 07:26 AM

Ford made the 7-tooth. Gemmer designed the 2-tooth but if Ford was to use the design, Gemmer had to give them the rights to it which they did. Ford was building so many cars in 1929, They had to use all available sources so 7-tooth and 2-tooth were both produced in high numbers in that year. After Ford started to produce the Gemmer design in sufficient quantities, the 7-tooth was slowly phased out.

It certainly could be belt tension. The model A water pump needs some slack but not that much. Half an inch is good. If it still won't pull its weight then check all connections for looseness or bad ground pathways. The lighting system can have crusty ground pathways due to the way all of the lamps are mounted and their distance from the power source. The headlamps are the largest continuous current draw in the electrical system.

UPS Driver · 07-31-2022, 07:30 AM

So it’s a 2 tooth and rebuilding shouldn’t be a problem. Thank you
I’m going to play around with it this afternoon it’s strange that it goes back to a zero charge with the lights off

katy · 07-31-2022, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UPS Driver

I turned on headlights the ammeter went into a 10 amp discharge

Was the engine running?

UPS Driver · 07-31-2022, 12:17 PM

Yes it was running at idle I revved the engine to try and “excite” the alternator as well . I’m not sure what’s going on the belt is very loose. Grabbing the fan and turning by hand only moves the water pump and it’s adjusted all the way out with the nu-rex bracket

UPS Driver · 07-31-2022, 12:58 PM

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I just noticed that someone has put “modern “ wiring with cloth over the rubber sheeting we see on wiring today also the negative goes to the starter and wires go from the starter to a “distribution box” on the firewall and at the starter the connector that goes to the box looks weak (like wires loose In the crimp) I’ll have to play with it and chase it down it can’t be too hard. Now to switch to a 12 volt system from the 6 volt besides changing bulbs and the coil what else is needed? I really never cared for 6 volt anything. I have multiple antique tractors and if the 6 volt works (usually not) I leave it alone but if it’s a problem I’ll switch to a one wire GM alternator and eliminate the problem and move on. This car is not and never will be a museum piece so I’m not worried about the original setup anyway. It’s confusing why switch to a 6 volt alternator and not do a 12 volt?

rotorwrench · 07-31-2022, 04:29 PM

As long as the wiring is the correct gauge and the terminals are soldered then 6-volt works fine. The terminal box under the coil is the firewall carry through to the amp meter. It's also the power source for the coil and the instrument panel light.

Changing to 12-volts is mostly a matter of dealing with the coil and all the light bulbs. The horn fields can easily be rewound for 12-volts if needed. It's just more work to get it where 6-volts could still do the same job. The 6-volt GM alternator conversion kits can be purchased to overhaul one of the 1-wire units like the GM 10si or a person can just use the 10SI on 12-volts. Add a generator out light for a 3-wire set up and it will excite as soon as it starts turning. The voltage regulation on the 12-volt units is better than the 6-volt conversions too. 12-volt batteries are available in the sizes that fit the OEM battery frame but a person has to get the ones with the posts in the right place for either negative ground or positive ground. Negative ground would make more sense on a 12-volt system. Polarity for the coil would be affected but that's about it.

UPS Driver · 07-31-2022, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

As long as the wiring is the correct gauge and the terminals are soldered then 6-volt works fine. The terminal box under the coil is the firewall carry through to the amp meter. It's also the power source for the coil and the instrument panel light.

Changing to 12-volts is mostly a matter of dealing with the coil and all the light bulbs. The horn fields can easily be rewound for 12-volts if needed. It's just more work to get it where 6-volts could still do the job.

Thank you I will try and trace it down this week my thinking is why not go ahead and switch to a 12 volt system if I have to mess with the 6 volt much?

gdmn852 · 07-31-2022, 05:02 PM

Hello, 6 volt systems work well with the proper large battery cables, usually what happens is that they are replaced with small cables available from car parts stores, the small cables increase current draw when starting causing start problems. You will have stock 6 volt bulbs as not common anymore.The Roadster has an alternator on in , will charge to about 15 amps after starting then tapers back to only a few amps once on the road. On the steering gear, before taking it apart, try to adjust it ,sometimes you can adjust some of the play out , also check the kingpins and steering arm balls for roundness .

UPS Driver · 07-31-2022, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdmn852

Hello, 6 volt systems work well with the proper large battery cables, usually what happens is that they are replaced with small cables available from car parts stores, the small cables increase current draw when starting causing start problems. You will have stock 6 volt bulbs as not common anymore.The Roadster has an alternator on in , will charge to about 15 amps after starting then tapers back to only a few amps once on the road. On the steering gear, before taking it apart, try to adjust it ,sometimes you can adjust some of the play out , also check the kingpins and steering arm balls for roundness .

That’s what I’m checking on the ground strap is VERY old the negative side however doesn’t seem very heavy but has a brass end so not sure

UPS Driver · 07-31-2022, 05:14 PM

I’m actually tempted to get everything together to make them from welding cables it’s not hard. We did it on my father’s 49 Chevy pickup

Bill G · 07-31-2022, 07:42 PM

If the car sat for a long period of time, the alternator may have lost its residual magnetism and its ability to self excite. Easy fix. Take the rubber plug off the alternator and while running momentarily flash pin #1 to ground. If it has lost its magnetism, that's all it should take. That is the instruction I received from NuRex after mine sat for a year while I was restoring.

UPS Driver · 07-31-2022, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill G

If the car sat for a long period of time, the alternator may have lost its residual magnetism and its ability to self excite. Easy fix. Take the rubber plug off the alternator and while running momentarily flash pin #1 to ground. If it has lost its magnetism, that's all it should take. That is the instruction I received from NuRex after mine sat for a year while I was restoring.

Thank YOU! I will try this tomorrow morning !

Joe K · 08-01-2022, 04:50 PM

Steering boxes marked "Gemmer" are generally of a variant all by themselves. Parts are not made for these, but parts aimed at the later Gemmer design marked A-3550-C on the side CAN be used on the earlier Gemmer marked housings. Caviet - one must replace ALL parts within the Gemmer housing as in Worm, bearings both upper and lower, and races upper and lower.

This generally involves pressing off and pressing on the worm on the steering wheel shaft which some have had issues with (there are mechanical "dodges" for this.) One HAS to be sure the worm remains "concentric" with the shaft and "post press straightening" may be required of the steering wheel shaft.

Some have critiqued the use of a needle bearing conversion for the sector housing. The fault being that the side thrust of the sector shaft in the housing is considerable and the bearing essentially "non-rotating" - the needles wear "humps" into the shaft leading to "lumpy" steering.

Comment from another local hobbyist of my acquaintance indicates he has gone back to bushing and sector replacement done "The KRW Way" to include use of a reamer/hone to yield the tightest fit possible on the shaft. Perhaps not as long lived as a properly adapted needle bearing assembly but a repeatable repair once you have the technique down.

Joe K

UPS Driver · 08-01-2022, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe K

Steering boxes marked "Gemmer" are generally of a variant all by themselves. Parts are not made for these, but parts aimed at the later Gemmer design marked A-3550-C on the side CAN be used on the earlier Gemmer marked housings. Caviet - one must replace ALL parts within the Gemmer housing as in Worm, bearings both upper and lower, and races upper and lower.

This generally involves pressing off and pressing on the worm on the steering wheel shaft which some have had issues with (there are mechanical "dodges" for this.) One HAS to be sure the worm remains "concentric" with the shaft and "post press straightening" may be required of the steering wheel shaft.

Some have critiqued the use of a needle bearing conversion for the sector housing. The fault being that the side thrust of the sector shaft in the housing is considerable and the bearing essentially "non-rotating" - the needles wear "humps" into the shaft leading to "lumpy" steering.

Comment from another local hobbyist of my acquaintance indicates he has gone back to bushing and sector replacement done "The KRW Way" to include use of a reamer/hone to yield the tightest fit possible on the shaft. Perhaps not as long lived as a properly adapted needle bearing assembly but a repeatable repair once you have the technique down.

Joe K

I’m usually the guy that has it “parts aren’t available “ so just checking

Joe K · 08-01-2022, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UPS Driver

I’m usually the guy that has it “parts aren’t available “ so just checking

Who was the WWII US General who claimed he was fated to fight his battles at the juncture of two maps?

Joe K

UPS Driver · 08-02-2022, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill G

If the car sat for a long period of time, the alternator may have lost its residual magnetism and its ability to self excite. Easy fix. Take the rubber plug off the alternator and while running momentarily flash pin #1 to ground. If it has lost its magnetism, that's all it should take. That is the instruction I received from NuRex after mine sat for a year while I was restoring.

This worked perfectly thank you all!!

07-31-2022, 07:26 AM	#2
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: 1929 Tudor steering box ID Ford made the 7-tooth. Gemmer designed the 2-tooth but if Ford was to use the design, Gemmer had to give them the rights to it which they did. Ford was building so many cars in 1929, They had to use all available sources so 7-tooth and 2-tooth were both produced in high numbers in that year. After Ford started to produce the Gemmer design in sufficient quantities, the 7-tooth was slowly phased out. It certainly could be belt tension. The model A water pump needs some slack but not that much. Half an inch is good. If it still won't pull its weight then check all connections for looseness or bad ground pathways. The lighting system can have crusty ground pathways due to the way all of the lamps are mounted and their distance from the power source. The headlamps are the largest continuous current draw in the electrical system. Last edited by rotorwrench; 07-31-2022 at 07:35 AM.

07-31-2022, 07:30 AM	#3
UPS Driver Member Join Date: Jul 2022 Posts: 78	Re: 1929 Tudor steering box ID So it’s a 2 tooth and rebuilding shouldn’t be a problem. Thank you I’m going to play around with it this afternoon it’s strange that it goes back to a zero charge with the lights off Last edited by UPS Driver; 07-31-2022 at 07:40 AM. Reason: Forgot to add info

07-31-2022, 12:17 PM	#5
UPS Driver Member Join Date: Jul 2022 Posts: 78	Re: 1929 Tudor steering box ID Yes it was running at idle I revved the engine to try and “excite” the alternator as well . I’m not sure what’s going on the belt is very loose. Grabbing the fan and turning by hand only moves the water pump and it’s adjusted all the way out with the nu-rex bracket

07-31-2022, 12:58 PM	#6
UPS Driver Member Join Date: Jul 2022 Posts: 78	Re: 1929 Tudor steering box ID Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I just noticed that someone has put “modern “ wiring with cloth over the rubber sheeting we see on wiring today also the negative goes to the starter and wires go from the starter to a “distribution box” on the firewall and at the starter the connector that goes to the box looks weak (like wires loose In the crimp) I’ll have to play with it and chase it down it can’t be too hard. Now to switch to a 12 volt system from the 6 volt besides changing bulbs and the coil what else is needed? I really never cared for 6 volt anything. I have multiple antique tractors and if the 6 volt works (usually not) I leave it alone but if it’s a problem I’ll switch to a one wire GM alternator and eliminate the problem and move on. This car is not and never will be a museum piece so I’m not worried about the original setup anyway. It’s confusing why switch to a 6 volt alternator and not do a 12 volt?

07-31-2022, 04:29 PM	#7
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: 1929 Tudor steering box ID As long as the wiring is the correct gauge and the terminals are soldered then 6-volt works fine. The terminal box under the coil is the firewall carry through to the amp meter. It's also the power source for the coil and the instrument panel light. Changing to 12-volts is mostly a matter of dealing with the coil and all the light bulbs. The horn fields can easily be rewound for 12-volts if needed. It's just more work to get it where 6-volts could still do the same job. The 6-volt GM alternator conversion kits can be purchased to overhaul one of the 1-wire units like the GM 10si or a person can just use the 10SI on 12-volts. Add a generator out light for a 3-wire set up and it will excite as soon as it starts turning. The voltage regulation on the 12-volt units is better than the 6-volt conversions too. 12-volt batteries are available in the sizes that fit the OEM battery frame but a person has to get the ones with the posts in the right place for either negative ground or positive ground. Negative ground would make more sense on a 12-volt system. Polarity for the coil would be affected but that's about it. Last edited by rotorwrench; 07-31-2022 at 04:38 PM.

07-31-2022, 05:02 PM	#9
gdmn852 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Erie Pa Posts: 691	Re: 1929 Tudor steering box ID Hello, 6 volt systems work well with the proper large battery cables, usually what happens is that they are replaced with small cables available from car parts stores, the small cables increase current draw when starting causing start problems. You will have stock 6 volt bulbs as not common anymore.The Roadster has an alternator on in , will charge to about 15 amps after starting then tapers back to only a few amps once on the road. On the steering gear, before taking it apart, try to adjust it ,sometimes you can adjust some of the play out , also check the kingpins and steering arm balls for roundness .

07-31-2022, 05:14 PM	#11
UPS Driver Member Join Date: Jul 2022 Posts: 78	Re: 1929 Tudor steering box ID I’m actually tempted to get everything together to make them from welding cables it’s not hard. We did it on my father’s 49 Chevy pickup

07-31-2022, 07:42 PM	#12
Bill G Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Walla Walla, WA Posts: 1,045	Re: 1929 Tudor steering box ID If the car sat for a long period of time, the alternator may have lost its residual magnetism and its ability to self excite. Easy fix. Take the rubber plug off the alternator and while running momentarily flash pin #1 to ground. If it has lost its magnetism, that's all it should take. That is the instruction I received from NuRex after mine sat for a year while I was restoring.

08-01-2022, 04:50 PM	#14
Joe K Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cow Hampshire Posts: 4,188	Re: 1929 Tudor steering box ID Steering boxes marked "Gemmer" are generally of a variant all by themselves. Parts are not made for these, but parts aimed at the later Gemmer design marked A-3550-C on the side CAN be used on the earlier Gemmer marked housings. Caviet - one must replace ALL parts within the Gemmer housing as in Worm, bearings both upper and lower, and races upper and lower. This generally involves pressing off and pressing on the worm on the steering wheel shaft which some have had issues with (there are mechanical "dodges" for this.) One HAS to be sure the worm remains "concentric" with the shaft and "post press straightening" may be required of the steering wheel shaft. Some have critiqued the use of a needle bearing conversion for the sector housing. The fault being that the side thrust of the sector shaft in the housing is considerable and the bearing essentially "non-rotating" - the needles wear "humps" into the shaft leading to "lumpy" steering. Comment from another local hobbyist of my acquaintance indicates he has gone back to bushing and sector replacement done "The KRW Way" to include use of a reamer/hone to yield the tightest fit possible on the shaft. Perhaps not as long lived as a properly adapted needle bearing assembly but a repeatable repair once you have the technique down. Joe K __________________ Shudda kept the horse.