Play causing front end shake? *UPDATED 8-23-12*

[1931 flamingo]

1/4" too much. JMO
Set it to spec.
Paul in CT

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

1/4" too much. JMO
Set it to spec.
Paul in CT

My question is 1/4" was the original spec. Would that *cause* it to shimmy?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

My question is 1/4" was the original spec. Would that *cause* it to shimmy?

Where or how are you measuring it? I think Marco has some information on his site about setting the toe in.

I have put tape on the front surface of the tires and marked an X on each piece, then measure the distance between them. Then roll the car ahead until the x's are just below the frame so you can pull the tape across to measure. I've set the toe in so the rear measure is about 1/8" more than the front measure and this has worked well for me.

[Franchise_24]

We measured the back of the front tires and then the front of the front tires. It ended up being 1/4" toe in.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

We measured the back of the front tires and then the front of the front tires. It ended up being 1/4" toe in.

You need to take measurements from the same spot on the tires to be accurate. If you measure the back, then the front, what about the wheel wobble and the tire tread that may be off? If each rim had only 1/8" bend, that alone can add up to a 1/4" wrong reading.

[Purdy Swoft]

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Originally Posted by Franchise_24

My question is 1/4" was the original spec. Would that *cause* it to shimmy?

The correct toe in is 1/16 plus or minus one 32nd . Too much toe in wouldn't cause shimmy. If it happened to be toed out at the front, the least bit it would cause shimmy. Any loosness anywhere in the front end, would contribute to the shimmy after it was set up.

I use a spring loaded telescoping measureing device purchased from a model a parts vender. I measure the toe in first at the rear of the wheel at the height, just under the wishbone, usually about 14 inches off the floor. With the measureing tool still in place, I push the car backwards untill the measureing tool rises to the same level in the front as it was in the back of the wheel when measured. It should be 1/16 closer at the front of the tire than the rear of the tire. It is difficult to acurately measure toe in with a tape measure and it takes two people. Setting toe in is a pain, I usually set it pretty close and drive it to a front end alignment shop and let them set the toe in.

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

You need to take measurements from the same spot on the tires to be accurate. If you measure the back, then the front, what about the wheel wobble and the tire tread that may be off? If each rim had only 1/8" bend, that alone can add up to a 1/4" wrong reading.

So basically Tom if I understand what you are saying correctly, you want to mark each tire and measure across. Then roll the car forward so it is at the same distance from the ground as it was before and measure again and that's how you figure the toe-in? Thanks!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

So basically Tom if I understand what you are saying correctly, you want to mark each tire and measure across. Then roll the car forward so it is at the same distance from the ground as it was before and measure again and that's how you figure the toe-in? Thanks!

Yes, that's the layman's way to do it, and since it's at a larger diameter then Ford's way you will have a larger numer for the toe in. Maybe 1/8", where the way Ford and Purdy measured you'd have 1/16 + or- a little.

I've done it both ways, but just adjust my figures accordingly. The main thing is to take the tire tread and bent wheel out of the equation, Which is what Ford and Purdy have done, and I do by using tape with an X to measure both locations.

[Franchise_24]

Just a quick update. I know it's been awhile, and the car still shakes, but we may have narrowed it down to the steering box being the culprit. We are going to be taking it out eventually and checking it over, may be something as simple as a bushing, but we won't know until we get it out. I'll keep you all posted.

[Franchise_24]

Scratch my last post, we've actually decided after talking with some others we are going to replace the steering arms first before we mess with the steering box. The balls are a bit egg shaped so that was recommended to do. Hoping to do this on Thursday so I will let you know what happens.

[bogiediver]

Well?

Fighting much the same battle...

[Purdy Swoft]

A sagging front spring will cause front end shimmy .

[Franchise_24]

Bogie, I sent you a PM with my info.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Franchise,
Claude, my REAL GURU, has a knack for finding sometimes overlooked steering stuff. Even down to a SLIGHTLY loose nut that secures the steering arms to the spindles and with weight on the wheels and having a helper turn the wheels back & forth slowly & firmly while watching the action of the radius rod ball. A movement in the ball can literally "STEER" the car, causing wobbles, darting, etc. Make sure the steering gear is really tight to the frame as I have read that the holes were a little large so the gearbox can be tilted down to accomodate using a steering column drop block on Vickys & Phaetons. (I have one that drops the column by 1 1/2")
I asked Claude how he got so good at finding this stuff & he said, "From doing Factory Safety Inspections on Ford tractors. Starting from the steering wheel nut and working my way through the ENTIRE steering system, ending up at the wheel bearing adjustment & the toe in. Using a helper to turn it back & forth, & doing it with weight on the wheels." Also observe if there's any flexing in the frame rail at the steering box area! Bill W. ( And make sure it's not a funky TIRE problem!)

[Franchise_24]

Thanks Bill. Luckily I got the problem taken care of back in October. This is kinda an old thread that Bogie stumbled across, so I was just telling him I sent him a message directly about what all I did so if it helps lead him in the right direction then that is a win for me. Thanks for the advice. -Neal-

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

Thanks Bill. Luckily I got the problem taken care of back in October. This is kinda an old thread that Bogie stumbled across, so I was just telling him I sent him a message directly about what all I did so if it helps lead him in the right direction then that is a win for me. Thanks for the advice. -Neal-

Neal,
I didn't notice it was an old thread. Doesn't it make you feel GOOD when you win one!!
Glad I posted Claude's methods, it may help someone else.
I wish you knew Claude, he's a wealth of down to earth info, 86 years old and still bulding stuff. Our Sierra Chapter of MAFCA celebrated our 50th year tonight!!! Bill W.

[Franchise_24]

Congrats on the 50th Bill! Yes, it is good when you win one for a change!! LOL Now I just need spring to get here so I can drive it more haha

[Patrick L.]

A lot of time and energy went into this thread by everyone. Its nice to know what the problem was and what was done to correct it. Its pretty much a matter of common courtesy.

[bogiediver]

Here's my PM to Franchise_24 and his response... was going to do this yesterday and got distracted...
***********

Your last post was 9/18/12…

I’m having similar issues… was hoping I could persuade you to post an update to the thread…

Perhaps even a recap of all that you did and in what order…

Thanks for considering…

-bogie

Response:

There is no way I could narrow it down and say I did this and it fixed it. We spent MONTHS working on that front end and nothing seemed to work. To try to give a run down:

1) Replaced steering arms (both, balls were egg shaped)
2) Replaced bad tie rod end (other was fine)
3) Replaced guts on both ends of the drag link
4) Replaced guts on both ends of the tie rod
5) Used rubber ball and changed plate on the wish bone
6) All new wheel bearings and races for the front
7) King pins have been pulled - they have fairly new bushings that were reamed.
8) Tightened all perches and any castle nut under there.
9) Set the toe-in
10) Tried good tires from my Coupe on the Leatherback to rule out bad tires

All in all it was a combination of all that I believe. After I did all that in the list I still had the shake, so I ended up tightening the drag link arm even more to the point where it was actually recessed in the end and then the shake stopped.

Unfortunately I fixed it in early October and I live in Ohio so I haven't driven it much, but for all that I did drive through October I never had anymore shake, and I kid you not when I say I ran over ever bump and man hole cover I could to try to get it to happen LOL.

Let me know if you have any other questions and I can try to help.
*************

Neal - thanks for the reply...