The Ford Barn

Loyd Nix · 08-14-2012, 07:08 AM

Now you'r talking! 80 something years of wear have had to have taken a toll on those moving parts. Do you have Les Andrews books? I found them quite helpful.
Taking the front end apart will be like going to school and will impress you with Henry's cleverness at the time.

Franchise_24 · 08-20-2012, 08:41 AM

Ok, so here is my latest update. Redid the draglink to make sure there is no play there. Did a radius ball rebuild to make sure there is no play there. Also I put my shocks on the front of the car like others have suggested, even tried different tires on the front like others have suggested as well. Every time I hit a bump on the passengers side front tire the car still shakes like crazy. My Dad was helping me yesterday do this so he stood and watched the car when I hit the bump, and we've narrowed it down to maybe the hub is just lose on the front passenger side of the car. I'm going to try to see if it just needs tightened up at the castle nut tonight, or I might be able to try a different hub to see if it makes a difference. If anyone else has any thoughts chime in, but I will report back after I tighten it up and drive around the block. I want to personally thank the man hole cover that I run over to make this happen, he is faithful every time I drive over him for my tests :-)

Tom Wesenberg · 08-20-2012, 09:10 AM

Has the toe in been set correctly?

Any sign of a bent front axle?

Franchise_24 · 08-20-2012, 09:37 AM

Nothing looks bent Tom, but I am unsure about the toe in or what I am looking for. Would that have to do with the tie rod?

Patrick L. · 08-20-2012, 11:07 AM

Well,, it sounds like you're pecking away at it.. If you haven't looked closely at the tie-rods,, then now is the time,, before you reset the toe.. I don't remember how the king-pins were or the wheel bearings.. When you go to 'tighten the castle nut' just be careful to adjust the wheel bearings correctly and to not get them too tight..

Franchise_24 · 08-20-2012, 12:01 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

Well,, it sounds like you're pecking away at it.. If you haven't looked closely at the tie-rods,, then now is the time,, before you reset the toe.. I don't remember how the king-pins were or the wheel bearings.. When you go to 'tighten the castle nut' just be careful to adjust the wheel bearings correctly and to not get them too tight..

Honestly, we couldn't get the tie rod apart. There is no play on the tie rod, so I'm thinking it is probably okay, but you never know...

oldmanandakid · 08-20-2012, 05:11 PM

Look carefully at that hub and be sure it is sized correctly for your race and bearing set. I had an oversized hub into which someone had crammed the standard size race and bearing. It was the death wobble side.

Franchise_24 · 08-20-2012, 08:25 PM

Ok, will do. Also, I've talked to people in my car club and they are suggesting to check my toe-in, because if my toe is off I'm told that can cause this type of wobble that I'm having. I'm getting frustrated, but I'm slowly chipping away at it. Thanks to everyone who has given advice and suggestions. That's what makes this place so great.

Larry Seemann · 08-20-2012, 08:59 PM

You say you did a radius ball rebuild. Did that include welding up the radius ball to the original 1.5" diameter? The caster is set at the factory by the position of the radius ball. Think of a bicycle front fork and think how it would be if the front fork didn't extend the front wheel out front of the spindle - the wheel would shimmy so bad you wouldn't be able to steer at all. That's what happens when the radius ball wears down over 80" years - the ball and radius rods go up and the caster diminishes and the front shimmies. Try this: get a fender washer- a 1.5" flat washer with a small hole- and using a large ball peen hammer shape the washer into a cup. Now drop the radius ball and slip the washer up on top of the ball then push the ball back up and reinstall the cap and everything as usual. The washer/cup will hold the ball down and reestablish the caster. It's not a very hard, expensive, time consuming thing to try. I've cured several shimmies this way.
The other thing I've run into is loose spring perch nuts. Are yours tight?
Good Luck!

Franchise_24 · 08-20-2012, 11:50 PM

Thanks for the info, and yes the spring perches are tight.

columbiA · 08-21-2012, 12:53 AM

You dont have to take the tie rod apart to adjust the alignment.Remove the 2 clamp bolts on tie rod ends,drive a chisel in the slot,if need be,& turn the rod with a pipe wrench as it as RH thread on one end & LH thread on the other.Try to aim for around 1/16"toe-in.If the T R ends are loose, adjust them before setting the toe-in.

Dave in MN · 08-21-2012, 08:23 AM

Reading everything you checked, I'd start looking at the wheel bearing. Correct races and rollers? JAck up the right front...grab the wheel and check for slop in the bearing fit. You will also discover your king pin fit by doing so.
Hope you find the cause soon!

Franchise_24 · 08-21-2012, 09:36 AM

Dave, from all the checking I've had 3 people say the king pins appear to be good, but how would you know if the wrong bearing is in there? Also last night when I had the wheel off I checked the spindle and there is no play or movement in the spindle, so that appears to be good as well. From what I'm hearing it appears the toe-in could be the cause of all of this, but it seems to simple it seems lol

Mitch//pa · 08-21-2012, 10:17 AM

Toe in was my shimmy..
After giving the front end a shake down for wear and strg box adjustment the toe fixed it. It took all of about an hour.

Dave in MN · 08-21-2012, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

Dave, from all the checking I've had 3 people say the king pins appear to be good, but how would you know if the wrong bearing is in there? Also last night when I had the wheel off I checked the spindle and there is no play or movement in the spindle, so that appears to be good as well. From what I'm hearing it appears the toe-in could be the cause of all of this, but it seems to simple it seems lol

A loose fit in the bearings was what I was looking for. Sounds like you have checked it with the wheel off. By shaking the assembly with the wheel on, you increase the leverage against the bearings.

Keep looking and let us know when you discover the cause.

Good Day!

1931 flamingo · 08-21-2012, 01:13 PM

Are the front brake backing plates tight to the spindles??
Paul in CT

Franchise_24 · 08-21-2012, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Are the front brake backing plates tight to the spindles??
Paul in CT

Yes they are.

Rich B. · 08-21-2012, 04:13 PM

I have been thru this in the past with my own Model A years ago, and with friends cars. Some stock, some Hot Rod. All the suggestions are
good, and I followed them all. Some were cured, and some not. The ones that nothing seemed to cure were solved by toe out. If all parts are good, and factory specs with front end alignment it sure wouldn't hurt to try it.
I went from 1/8" toe in to 1/8" toe out, and it cured the problem. Never
had tire wear problem, with many miles on it.

Rich

MikeK · 08-21-2012, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich B.

I have been thru this in the past with my own Model A years ago, and with friends cars. Some stock, some Hot Rod. All the suggestions are good, and I followed them all. Some were cured, and some not. The ones that nothing seemed to cure were solved by toe out. If all parts are good, and factory specs with front end alignment it sure wouldn't hurt to try it. I went from 1/8" toe in to 1/8" toe out, and it cured the problem. Never had tire wear problem, with many miles on it.
Rich

I'm not so sure I'd ever want to try toe-out. The Ackermann steering geometry on a Model A was engineered for toe-in on a straight line. Setting it out could produce a rather dangerous situation if you need to make a high speed maneuver to avoid something. The wheel on the outside of the turn will respond even less than the Ackermann compensated design amount. The car will want to go straighter than your learned, instantaneous emergency input into the steering wheel thinks it will. You will misjudge the emergency turn. At low speed, positive toe will make quite a wanderer out of a front end with bias tires.

Rich B. · 08-21-2012, 06:38 PM

Mike: I understand your hesitancy, and I do not profess to be an
expert. I think I qualified my post by saying one should have all the
correct installed parts. Just speaking from my own experiance I drove that Model A almost 30,000 miles under all conditions with no troubles. I have
several friends with simular results.

I responded since our poster seems at the end of his rope. One thing that has always baffled me is the number of old worn out Model A's
that never seemed to have a problem! LOL

Take care, Rich

08-14-2012, 07:08 AM	#41
Loyd Nix Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 105	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED Now you'r talking! 80 something years of wear have had to have taken a toll on those moving parts. Do you have Les Andrews books? I found them quite helpful. Taking the front end apart will be like going to school and will impress you with Henry's cleverness at the time.

08-20-2012, 08:41 AM	#42
Franchise_24 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lexington, Ohio Posts: 782	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 Ok, so here is my latest update. Redid the draglink to make sure there is no play there. Did a radius ball rebuild to make sure there is no play there. Also I put my shocks on the front of the car like others have suggested, even tried different tires on the front like others have suggested as well. Every time I hit a bump on the passengers side front tire the car still shakes like crazy. My Dad was helping me yesterday do this so he stood and watched the car when I hit the bump, and we've narrowed it down to maybe the hub is just lose on the front passenger side of the car. I'm going to try to see if it just needs tightened up at the castle nut tonight, or I might be able to try a different hub to see if it makes a difference. If anyone else has any thoughts chime in, but I will report back after I tighten it up and drive around the block. I want to personally thank the man hole cover that I run over to make this happen, he is faithful every time I drive over him for my tests :-) __________________ 1929 Model A Ford Coupe

08-20-2012, 09:10 AM	#43
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 Has the toe in been set correctly? Any sign of a bent front axle?

08-20-2012, 09:37 AM	#44
Franchise_24 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lexington, Ohio Posts: 782	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 Nothing looks bent Tom, but I am unsure about the toe in or what I am looking for. Would that have to do with the tie rod? __________________ 1929 Model A Ford Coupe

08-20-2012, 11:07 AM	#45
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 Well,, it sounds like you're pecking away at it.. If you haven't looked closely at the tie-rods,, then now is the time,, before you reset the toe.. I don't remember how the king-pins were or the wheel bearings.. When you go to 'tighten the castle nut' just be careful to adjust the wheel bearings correctly and to not get them too tight..

08-20-2012, 05:11 PM	#47
oldmanandakid Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Southern Nevada Posts: 149	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 Look carefully at that hub and be sure it is sized correctly for your race and bearing set. I had an oversized hub into which someone had crammed the standard size race and bearing. It was the death wobble side.

08-20-2012, 08:25 PM	#48
Franchise_24 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lexington, Ohio Posts: 782	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 Ok, will do. Also, I've talked to people in my car club and they are suggesting to check my toe-in, because if my toe is off I'm told that can cause this type of wobble that I'm having. I'm getting frustrated, but I'm slowly chipping away at it. Thanks to everyone who has given advice and suggestions. That's what makes this place so great. __________________ 1929 Model A Ford Coupe

08-20-2012, 08:59 PM	#49
Larry Seemann Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Spokane, WA. Posts: 496	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 You say you did a radius ball rebuild. Did that include welding up the radius ball to the original 1.5" diameter? The caster is set at the factory by the position of the radius ball. Think of a bicycle front fork and think how it would be if the front fork didn't extend the front wheel out front of the spindle - the wheel would shimmy so bad you wouldn't be able to steer at all. That's what happens when the radius ball wears down over 80" years - the ball and radius rods go up and the caster diminishes and the front shimmies. Try this: get a fender washer- a 1.5" flat washer with a small hole- and using a large ball peen hammer shape the washer into a cup. Now drop the radius ball and slip the washer up on top of the ball then push the ball back up and reinstall the cap and everything as usual. The washer/cup will hold the ball down and reestablish the caster. It's not a very hard, expensive, time consuming thing to try. I've cured several shimmies this way. The other thing I've run into is loose spring perch nuts. Are yours tight? Good Luck! __________________ Larry Seemann

08-20-2012, 11:50 PM	#50
Franchise_24 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lexington, Ohio Posts: 782	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 Thanks for the info, and yes the spring perches are tight. __________________ 1929 Model A Ford Coupe

08-21-2012, 12:53 AM	#51
columbiA Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 1,746	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 You dont have to take the tie rod apart to adjust the alignment.Remove the 2 clamp bolts on tie rod ends,drive a chisel in the slot,if need be,& turn the rod with a pipe wrench as it as RH thread on one end & LH thread on the other.Try to aim for around 1/16"toe-in.If the T R ends are loose, adjust them before setting the toe-in.

08-21-2012, 08:23 AM	#52
Dave in MN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jordan, MN Posts: 1,411	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 Reading everything you checked, I'd start looking at the wheel bearing. Correct races and rollers? JAck up the right front...grab the wheel and check for slop in the bearing fit. You will also discover your king pin fit by doing so. Hope you find the cause soon!

08-21-2012, 09:36 AM	#53
Franchise_24 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lexington, Ohio Posts: 782	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 Dave, from all the checking I've had 3 people say the king pins appear to be good, but how would you know if the wrong bearing is in there? Also last night when I had the wheel off I checked the spindle and there is no play or movement in the spindle, so that appears to be good as well. From what I'm hearing it appears the toe-in could be the cause of all of this, but it seems to simple it seems lol __________________ 1929 Model A Ford Coupe

08-21-2012, 10:17 AM	#54
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 Toe in was my shimmy.. After giving the front end a shake down for wear and strg box adjustment the toe fixed it. It took all of about an hour.

08-21-2012, 01:13 PM	#56
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 Are the front brake backing plates tight to the spindles?? Paul in CT

08-21-2012, 04:13 PM	#58
Rich B. Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 40	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 I have been thru this in the past with my own Model A years ago, and with friends cars. Some stock, some Hot Rod. All the suggestions are good, and I followed them all. Some were cured, and some not. The ones that nothing seemed to cure were solved by toe out. If all parts are good, and factory specs with front end alignment it sure wouldn't hurt to try it. I went from 1/8" toe in to 1/8" toe out, and it cured the problem. Never had tire wear problem, with many miles on it. Rich

08-21-2012, 06:38 PM	#60
Rich B. Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 40	Re: Play causing front end shake? UPDATED 8-20-12 Mike: I understand your hesitancy, and I do not profess to be an expert. I think I qualified my post by saying one should have all the correct installed parts. Just speaking from my own experiance I drove that Model A almost 30,000 miles under all conditions with no troubles. I have several friends with simular results. I responded since our poster seems at the end of his rope. One thing that has always baffled me is the number of old worn out Model A's that never seemed to have a problem! LOL Take care, Rich