Need help at Macungie P.A. Meet.

[peters180a/170b]

Glenn , What movie did i hear that? There's no crying in baseball[Was that a Tom Hanks movie] . Should be the same as Model "A' judging.. Here's one. I report to "protect" the game.In this case the hobby for fine point cars. What movie was that from? I am not crying but i am speaking up for what's right from wrong or should i say common sence. Henry 494 , Ron and you glenn lets see [WOW all from C.A. what a surprise] . I get the same feeling when i am in the TEA PARTY movement . You guys are far left...l.o.l. ..look if some [RP] parts are not allow to be used then You are starting them off in the minus columm on parts you can not find or be able to be used. How many n.o.s. or good sets of orginial hoses are out there?? Anyone has some forsale. [i asked 3 years ago and only 1 answered with hard as a rock small hose.]Any fan belts forsale?? Wire harness [ Dave said one was forsale on ebay a week before French lick ,,any good? how many complain about buying parts on ebay are there? ] .Time before that i think Doug put one up forsale [what 2-3 years ago].Like i said its a safety factor with that old wire.Almost lost my roadster went up in flames. I am not forgetting, i am having fun glenn .Its just i am saying what i am hearing for years. I am the first to come out of the closet and speak my peace. I was born in the Bronx and back in the day who ever did not belong in the neighborhood was put in a trash can and thru off a 3 story roof. Reason for the trash can ?So the trash was kept in the can when they hit the floor.NO mess... love those grandpa stories.

[Blessyouboys]

I had some wonderful English Stilton today. Stilton on a rye cracker is heavenly.

Now, if I only had some good wine to finish it off...

[henry494]

Pete, My last comment to you on this subject, since you just won't quit whining;

Those that persevere in the pursuit of those hard to find parts will reap the rewards with the judges. Those that buy repro, for wahtever reason, will simply not get the points. Simple as that, no matter what New York spin you want to put on it.

Nine Henry Awards have come home to the West Coast, but that has nothing to do with our political beliefs, and to even mention that in this thread is ridiculous.

I'll bet everyone else is tired of this thread. I'm done with it. Go sit in your beautiful 180-A and whine about your loss of points by yourself.

Dave Lopes

[forever4]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

You guys are far left...l.o.l. ..look if some [RP] parts are not allow to be used then You are starting them off in the minus columm on parts you can not find or be able to be used. How many n.o.s. or good sets of orginial hoses are out there?? Anyone has some forsale. [i asked 3 years ago and only 1 answered with hard as a rock small hose.]Any fan belts forsale?? Wire harness [ Dave said one was forsale on ebay a week before French lick ,,any good? how many complain about buying parts on ebay are there? ]

Well Pete,
I am not from the 'far left', I have been in the midwest for the last 30 years busily buying (and selling) all the nice and NOS Model A and B parts I can find.
Those parts can still be found today, at very fair prices.

In the past year that I have been back from China I have come up with 5 NOS fenders, 2 near NOS grilles, NOS window frames for roadster/phaeton, NOS engine pan, NOS round speedo, NOS Zenith carburetor, etc etc, as well as numerous NOS and mint used 'hard-to-find' parts, like horns and instrument panels, all at very reasonable prices, not at premium highway robbery prices.

I mostly buy from swap meets, local collectors, and public farm auctions, and the occasional Craig's list.
All such nice and NOS parts are out there if you really are willing to look.
I enjoy looking, finding, buying, photographing and studying, hoarding and also re-selling.
That is my main capability and activity in this hobby.

I have no intentions or ability or illusions of ever building a high point car for judging myself, but I do respect and support the ability and efforts of others such as yourself who do.

Over the years I have sold a quite a bit of NOS and nice used parts to people who appreciated them (both West and East coast), including Marco, Doug Clayton, Timothy Kelly, Chuck Shaw (deceased) and many others on this message board who put them to good use on their high point projects and authentic restorations, and in their own collections.

Regarding rubber specifically, I have sold NOS radiator hoses, NOS light sockets & wiring, NOS body and lighting wiring etc. to some of the (west coast) people listed above.
Beautiful supple mint NOS rubber and wiring, not petrified junk.

So in response to your questions, it is all available if you really look, so there is no reason that reproduction parts should get the full points. It is unfair to the people who put the effort into finding the correct original parts for their high point cars.

Everyone must resolve this issue themselves at some level or another, and each restorer gets to decide which original parts and points are within their ability to acquire, and where they will use reproductions.
Your decision to use or make reproduction parts for some items was your personal decision.

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

I was born in the Bronx and back in the day who ever did not belong in the neighborhood was put in a trash can and thru off a 3 story roof.

Same should hold true for reproduction parts found on Fine Point and Henry cars. They really don't belong in the neighborhood. So no surprise when they lose points and are thrown from the roof by the judges.

Final comment:
Some people feel that California must be some kind of cornucopia of mint and NOS parts.
I don't know, but I've never gotten that impression myself.
Actually in my experience, the states still having the most prolific availability of nice NOS and original Model A parts which can be bought reasonably is Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Pensylvania, Wisconsin, and New York. (and Illinois to some degree)

[peters180a/170b]

Thank you Vince . Maybe i have been[and many like me] looking at the wrong tables at Hershey and locale meets here.It seems more are looking then finding the parts as i am not alone. Wish i had the time looking for those parts. Guess putting ads for them really does not work for me in the past and word of mouth.I can not remember ever seeing n.o.s. or useable hoses on ebay.You would think that would be such a hot item and bring a nice number.3 years i started looking and asking around for them. 1 person sent me a email saying he bought a set 5 years ago at a flea market out west. Guess to do a fine point car you need more then 7 years to complete one ,just to look for parts and hope someone is selling them.Or find someone who started on a fine point restoration "years" ago with all the goodies and could not finish due to age,health,time,money and death.I should not forget recycle past winners.I take it one must have some get-away time to turn up some of those rocks for parts. And yes C.A does not have the parts as we do here.I sold to C.A more then anyone over the years. I don't hold onto parts as i find them[check out what i sold n.o.s. on ebay in the past] nothing close of a collection i had and sold[parts that were not for my car were sold].Yes i have backup parts for the 180A but thats it. I sent a n.o.s. front axle to C.A. /visa picked up at the French Lick. So thank you for your reply .It is harder then one thinks finding those parts,. Its YEARS and not weekends or twice a year National model "A' meets.I am pretty much finished with my car anyway ,The only part i did add so far was the correct square nuts for the cowl light wire inside brackets and working on 2 wheels to match the other 3.And i must thank Marco for all the past phone calls and emails[the calls for help] .That was the most inportant part of this restoration along with Doug Bruce..

[Steve Ciccalone]

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Pete, still the nicest 180-A I've seen. I remember Nick Crea's car in the mid-70's. Mostly all NOS back in the day when those parts were readily attainable. But the polished engine block and the chrome spoke covers were a little too much. I think it had a three door hood as well.

[Jack '29 Sport Coupe]

After reading all of the above----I could use a drink!

Jack

[Scott NY]

I have been following this post, and lot of good points had been made. First of all judging is some what subjective and will change form show to show based on different judges see thing differently. As for the NOS parts they are still out there but becoming hard to find and in some cases to expensive for others to buy. In the years that I have been judging I have been told different ways on how to handle repro parts. At one show we were told to give Aries mufflers full points, even though it is a great reproduction it is not original. So we can go back and forth all day on this subject and in the end you will never catch your tail sort of speaking. Yes Peter your 180A has got to be one on the finest around and I would love to have it in my garage,and yes mistakes are made occasionally ie: original parts mistaked for repro. When it comes down to it it reality all fine point cars are over restored, just my opinion. I posted these pictures on another posting of a couple of clips frpm my original car with there paint runs and build up from being dipped, how do you think fine point judges would score these???? not very high I think. In the end I feel it is more about being with freinds that share the same love for this hobby.

[Mike V. Florida]

Let's go back and re-read the original post :

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

Will be there on Aug. 7 ,Saturday with 180A. Recieved my score from French Lick. I need people to look see where the issue is.......

To me this means that he would like to see where the problems are and how to fix them. I read the Standards on page 12 (revised 1997) under Judging Philosophy states;

"A judge should not bo too harsh because the final point awarded should truly reflect the achievement of the restorer when the various elements of the task are considered"

Then we read from Henry494;

Originally Posted by henry494

Pete, Repro parts are usually deducted 50%, ...

and

Originally Posted by henry494

I know of a fairly major reduction for reproduction parts that was NOT given to your car as well, ...

Where does it say anything about 50% off? I read;

" If the appearance of the of a component is different from those used in the original part, the part must be considered a reproduction or incorrect part and awarded fewer points."

Again, where is it said 50% off if the part is close to an original I read that it should be judged the same as an original part that has issues. Is it being said here that a crappy original part must receive more points over a reproduction part in good condition?

And again if you go to the original post where Pete askes for help in distinguishing what need to be changes to make the part(s) indistinguishable from the original because the Standard state;

"If a reproduction part is such that it is indistinguishable from original, it too will shall merit full points."

That statement reminds me of reading about a guy who took a modern belt, dyed it, stamped the correct things on the top and received full points from the judge that told him to be careful since original belts are valuable and break easily.

Originally Posted by henry494

I wish I could take a day with you and your car, with the Standards in hand, and review all 23 areas. Opposite coasts prevent that for now.

That is what Pete is trying to do! He wants as many eyes as he can get on the car to tell him where he can improve. He needs many eyes because

Originally Posted by henry494

"... it is a "judges call" as to how much percentage or how many points are deducted. That's part of the definition of a judge. We can't spell out appropriate point deductions in the Standards as there are just far too many possibilities to do so."

So the more eyes the better to locate the little things that give a part away as a reproduction.

I don't know Pete, never met him, never spoke to him.

[Mitch//pa]

there are good judges and crappy judges i think we got a taste of the later. i know i was turned off.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

there are good judges and crappy judges i think we got a taste of the later. i know i was turned off.

Did you show a car? If so I'll bet any issues you have can be addressed. If not and you are simply basing your assessment on comments made here, you are being unfair. Most (probably 98%) of all post event griping from national meets is fueled by ignorance, i.e., folks that have never even stepped through that door. MARC and MAFCA judging at a national meet is NOTHING like any other venue, period.

Yes, there are indeed crappy judges. The majority of errors from such judges is the failure to recognize incorrect or non-authentic items, and improper finishes. That does not mean they don't put forth their best effort. I know they do. However the result is the upward skewing of the scores for SOME but not all cars.

[peters180a/170b]

Thank you for not only the kind words about my car but reaching some understanding in this matter. As stated i recieved my score sheets. Just saying [RP] on my rear n.o.s. fenders ,n.o.s. rear fender bracket and correct orginial hardware and finish is no answer. I have gone oven time and time again to make sure. If someone points it {RP} out to me then i'll be the first to say i was dead wrong! Same with the running board trim. All orginial MINT boards ,orginial correct hardware and finish "but " with repro rubber and The best trim made to this point[try to find orginial trim for a 1930 4 piece board]. Ok at a MAFCA meet[Bob Burdick did a very nice job] nice as Aries mufflers and too should get full credit.I have a very good orginial muffler i could of used it but why when full credit goes to Aries too.What if i did put the orginial on??Do i get extra credit or do the judges go back and take % off the other cars>??Here's the story which is a SLAP IN MY FACE or a KNIFE IN MY BACK!. Years ago i bought 2 full sets of N.O.S. Acme valve stems [MINT!] on ebay for $75.00 per set. "NO" Dust covers! Spoke to Dick C. [seller] who have the dust covers? "NO ONE!" Looking for YEARS! and don't know even what they look like.He found a large bucket of these very nice stems. "NO DUST COVERS".Made a call to Doc. K [ Doc do you have any ACME dust covers?] He was laughing at me..Pete in all my years i have seen 1 set on a truck [Don M.].. Back in 1988 Sturbridge MAFCA meet the truck was there i seen it. Doc K. dug up his phone number and so i called. He wanted nothing to do with Model "A" s as he put them in the barn with a pile of parts and closed the doors [years ago]. No way he wanted to help me..... So i placed a ad on FORDBARN .Recieved a email from Gary Johnson. Peter i am not sure but i think i have 1... $40.00 Ok i'll send you some money.Called Doc back [Doc Gary thinks he has 1.? ]Doc, said i have 1 i found on a tube ,stem and all.I'll let you borrow it but i must have it back. So both was a perfect match> Made trips to my friend CNC man ,wrote a program and made 6. Sent them out to Doc K. to review .Pete Stop , they are super ,send me 15 of them. Ok got a call from Dan ,send me 15 too. Took care of my friend Dick C. and made sure he was covered for 7 sets too.Put them forsale on fordbarn and the restorer mag. Sold out 120 of them and now 60 more on order. Here comes the SLAP in the FACE. A person who planned on using them on his next FINE POINT RESTORATION said i can not use them anymore.They know they are repro.All the channels i went thru and less then 5 people in the world may??? tell the different and only after they compared the 2. It will take a fine file to make them perfect. Someone was going to sell them for n.o.s. [thats where i draw the line]. So the [I KNOW THE FAIRLY MAJOR REDUCTION FOR REPRODUCTION PARTS WAS "NOT" GIVEN TO YOU CAR AS WELL]. Doc K. called the "RIGHT" CALL on this issue, And thanks to Doc K. and his "YEARS" with common sence made the right call. And yet the other judge wanted to take % points off and a chance of me not getting the Henry Ford award on a part he was going to use himself. Maybe he knew he can get away with it if i did not spread the covers to everyone and maybe to a chosen few.! .Sorry i like to spread parts around so it help everyone and not just myself . One should help others as i am asking .Most people still can not believe the score i recieved.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by henry494

I will start again by stating to everyone that your 180A is beautiful. Period. It is also over-restored in many areas, which I'm sure you will see in your judging sheets. You can't finish chassis parts in glassy-smooth gloss and not expect deductions. Again, you chose to do it this way to suit your personal taste, and it looks great, but that's not what is looked for in judging. Deductions are appropriate.

Repor parts, hoses, fan belts, valve stem covers, etc, if they are detected as repro, they are deducted for. It would be so totally unfair to a restorer for you to receive full credit for your Acme covers when someone searched for years and found originals, wouldn't it? And, your Acmes covers are NOT "balls-on" as you indicate. They are VERY close, but they sure didn't fool me. Really, you think full credit is appropriate for repro parts? Same example as Al&L's 30-31 covers. Very close to original, but not exact, therefore deductions are made with the notation on the score sheets as "RP." And yeah, I probably will use Bridgeports instead of Acme's on our next car so that nobody thinks I used your excellent repops.

You ask when was the last time anyone saw an original wire harness for sale. Last one I saw was on e-bay the week before French Lick. I have one ready in the drawer for our next restoration. You just have to be looking and searching all the time. The parts are out there.

It's a beautiful car Pete, you earned a Henry by coming within 10 points of the high point car in contention at the meet. Enjoy the rewards you earned and leave the negativity by the side of the road.

Pete sorry had to chime in on this..

Well Your car is great and truly something to be proud of, you know how i feel about it and told you so right after the awards were given, lets start by saying that, I want to add to some of the points Dave made above. As you know i did judge undercarriage and yes it was over restored and you were given deductions. Glass gloss was not appropriate now matter how great it looked, I am aware of the controversy of the black but studying enough will give you the correct answers and by judging you will become much more knowledgeable. When we judged your undercarriage we had to take into consideration what we know as judges is wrong and what we believe is correct. Those are the standards we have to go by, be it write now in the 2000's or right in the 90's, this is what is judged now. As will stated, by participation and education above and beyond this comes. I was aware of all your work on your car from the update and photos you sent and something truly to be proud of, however having to convince my other team members that it was NOT powder coated and painted indicated immediately, over restoration. I am sorry but the points had to be deducted. We did get nit picky on your car as well as all others, you were given full points for all your grease fittings also.

As you know we are doing a fine point car also, I am a believe that not only is the hard part to find the parts very difficult but unless one educates them selves on what they need and what it should look like it is all in vain.. YES i do have a NOS wire harness,. So not only original but NOS, and Many many NOS engine parts, bell housing and such. But that does not mean it is perfect, color, texture, finish, was it left over parts etc,. hence the over restoration, and yes i spend the $$$ to find NOS Hoses, clamps, valve stems etc and more, I did it because it is correct and we want the full points and the repo parts that are not correct and SHOULD be deducted for. I spent 4 years looking for an original battery only to find that they are NOT deducting on the script repos now.

Pete you got a HENRY...my god what a great "Club" to be in, they are far and few as between, you actually got the points that the judges saw fit., YES pete there were cars that were better and some worse. However you Henry is an Honor and forget the points, your car is stunning and your work showed it, participate in judging, educate oneself and keep an open mind, learning is the heart of our hobby and most important is the FUN we all get from it..

Just me thoughts
Mark Maron

[glenn in camino]

Major League.

[MCHinson]

I probably should stay out of this, but I guess I am not going to. I recently retired and now have the time to spend on this site. I have been following this thread recently. I have owned a few Model A's over the past 20 years or so. I have been a member of MAFCA for many years. I have been a member of MARC for a few years. I have been a member of AACA for many years. I am quite active in AACA since there is a local Chapter in my city. There don't seem to be many MAFCA or MARC meets anywhere near Southeastern North Carolina. As such, I have been more active in AACA than MAFCA or MARC. I am active in AACA Judging on a local, regional, and national level. We have enough trouble keeping AACA Judges from being "Nit Picky".

My current Model A is a 1929 Phaeton that was restored in 1989. I bought the car in 2006 and freshened it up and have since received an AACA Senior Grand National Award with the car. From what I have read here, it sounds like I am lucky that I have never had the chance to take the car to a MAFCA or MARC meet. I think that my car would be laughed off of the field at either of those types of meets. Luckily, I have more fun driving the car. I may be stupid, but I take this "show car" touring. I have probably put a couple of thousand miles on it since receiving the Senior Grand National Award, and the tours have been much more fun than the car shows. I am a firm believe that the Model A was made to be driven and the hobby is supposed to be fun.

If you enjoy the competition, enter the competition. If you don't like the judging system, stay away from it. As long as you understand the system that you are competing in, if you don't enjoy it, you have two basic options, walk away, or work within the system to get it changed. Complaining on a discussion forum will not change it, you have to work within the parameters of the system to make changes. I admit that this discussion has probably convinced me that I want to stick with the AACA judging system. It sounds to me like the level of "nit picking" in Model A Meets is just not for me. Best of luck to everybody. Hope I have not stomped on too many toes...

[sonny30coupe]

When you ask men their opinion of another mans car, you are going to have people that are not happy. That is what you are doing when you judge for these events. I dont envy those that do it. I take my hat off to them, they have a hard job. I would like to do it some day myself. I have won many a bike shows, and lost very few with the bikes I build. But when I dont get first place in a show, no big deal. Life goes on. There will always be another show and another day. With all that said, will somebody be his friend and loan that man an original fan belt?

[glenn in camino]

Does anyone think this discussion will have a positive effect on Model A judging? I don't.

[peters180a/170b]

Sonny [Thank you but the fan belt recieved full credit as it did back in 1988 ,1990 ,thank God i bought 6 of them] .I am thinking of others down the line. I have 2 n.o.s. wire harness and 3 n.o.s. Terminal box to Cutout. Orginial from day one or early Ford replacements. Glenn ,Change to a positive Model "A" judging? Might and i hope even 1 thing will change for the good of future Fine Point Judging. ACME dust covers. Can do balls on but thats upto the owner of them to do a simple change. I did not want them to be sold for n.o.s.. which does happen.. He said he can tell the difference.Sure side by side and look long enough. Ask him how long he has been looking for orginials??? I have his email [25 YEARS] .and he is not alone. So how long wound he wait if i did not come along? Everyone who bought them are very happy and very glad i did .They sell for a full stem set [$400.00 ] plated and ready to go.Doc K. sold his last set at the French Lick.Dan B. is out of them too.[VERY RARE] They are closer to orginial then as ARIES muffler , Ford script battery ,..Mark do you remember how many points i lost on my undercarriage? All correct and i was even with Dougs in points.[we were the 2 top cars].That does not bother me.A incorrect call was made on some nuts.Judging standards did not say [when luggage rack was used has a different set up] .And Marco and i corrected the judge for future judging. Will be added in New standards[i was told].That's by "ALL" means cost me just about zzip!And both guys are very understanding. But its the {RP} with no explation on rear fenders /fasteners , running boards /fasteners. 5 points thats a hit .You work on YOUR car for 7 years ,know every nut ,bolt ,lockwasher ,carriage bolt because you found the correct part, wire brush them ,metal prep them ,in some cases had them plated [raven,cad finish] lost layers of tissue from you fingers and to have someone say [RP] .?Where is a referee??? Here's a idea for the next meet. Wed they finish judging and the totals are complete. Thursday, 1 referee goes over the car with the owner and shows what is wrong. Right now we wait all day Thursday and Friday for award dinner at 7:00 .. If someone told me i lost 1 point for Over restoration on my undercarriage believe me i have no problem with that. And hoses ,wiring that fine too. But the [RP]? at least i have a chance there and now, WHY? Like they said judges do make wrong calls and take off to many% of points.And all can be corrected before the award dinner. Its not like there's 20 + fine point cars at a meet. Now that would be a change for the better ,... 494 ,68C both good guys ,hell i make it a point every Hershey to visit Gary at his spot even if i don't buy anything from him. He's one of those faces you want to see and say hello to.And yes his car deserves a Henry[just not that many points over mine..l,o,l,].And his wife GREAT Gal. She makes sure you stay away 2 feet out from the car.Crap i had kids looking over my doors to see inside my car while standing on the running boards. WAIT a minute ,,i'll open the door for ya. I had parents take pictures of the kids sitting behind the steering wheel.All in fun. And 494 would be no more ,,If after 10 years have past someone would say [YOU have the wrong jack]! You need a hole in it! Then he would be known as 495... All those National Model "A" meets and no one till French Lick.. wow........

[glenn in camino]

Peter, This has been kinda fun but I think it's time to let it go.
Glenn

[peters180a/170b]

The End !