Antique Engine Rebuilder complaint

[Bob from Northport]

This information is for those of you lookling for an engine rebuilder, or for those who have used this company's services.
We had a problem with an engine purchased from this company, one of a number with several engines. This problem involved a knocking noise in an engine installed-built by this company. We posted the probelm on Ford Barn, and looked at all the information given to us to solve the problem. As it turned out, we found a bad oil pump drive gear assembly in the engine, a part supplied to us by this company. The cam shaft was moving forward and back .040, and we watched through the access side plate on the timing cover as this was happening when the engine was running. The engine was knocking very loudly! We changed the part, and the problem disappeared.
We called Richard on several occassions, and the usual responce was it was something we had done. His answer was "to pull the engine and ship it back and he would check it." That was hard to believe. We sent the part back to him, with a small bill for the replacement and a small labor charge for all the work to solve the problem. He in turn sent the part to the manufacturer, and they advised they saw nothing wrong with the part. It was returned to us, advising it was our error. This particular part only fits one way, it can not go in otherwise. The cam movement and noise stopped when the part was removed and replaced. If they had installed the part in another engine, they might have found a different answer.
We have purchased 5 engines from him in the past few years. We have had serious vibration issues with several, and now this problem. I realize the part was not of his making. But to continually blame the purchaser for problems is too much. Arrogance at it's very best.
We have already moved engine purchases for additional engines to other builders. Enough is enough. We have over 60 years experience on these cars and engines in my garage. I know we make mistakes, and we have always managed to find the problem and fix it. I have never charged a customer for a repair that was not his fault, unless I could clearly show the fault was not ours. Simply not good business. For the price of a gear and 100.00 labor charge, his shop lost two sales, and more in the future.
If you intend on using his services, make the warrenty very clear on what you buy. If you are happy with his services, please continue to use his shop. This was just a word to the wise.

Bob Campbell
Bob's Model A Ford Garage

[48Ratfink]

Don't leave Me in suspence,,,Who are We talking about?

[Bob from Northport]

Antique Engine Rebuilders- Skokie, Illinois

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Bob, I hate it for you and wish you the best in whatever direction you choose to go. I have been in similar shoes with another rebuilder (NOT Rich F's company) and know it can be stressful as you are seemingly pitted in the middle between your customer and the rebuilder. That is why I am extremely thankful for the one I am using now. Again, best wishes to you in this regard.

.

[48Ratfink]

Originally Posted by Bob from Northport

Antique Engine Rebuilders- Skokie, Illinois

Oh,,,I see says the blind man!!!

[ldj1002]

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That wouldn't have happened to me. After the 2nd engine if not the 1st they wouldn't have had a chance for 6 to be bad.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Do you have any pictures or dimensions of the spring and pluger comparing it to known good parts? Was it just a bad spring, or was the pluger also bad? Do you know where the spring came from?

[Bill in NJ]

Reminds me of when I was buying a rebuilt short block from him at Hershey one year and after paying him I realized the block was cracked between a water jacket. He said it was not a problem and I said your right I want my money back. He gave it back but went on about his guarantee etc etc. I think it was 90 days back then??

[Maclab58]

I purchased an engine from Rich back in January and have been very impressed with the engine and its performance. its always scary when you are dropping that much cash.

[Brian T]

Originally Posted by Bill in NJ

Reminds me of when I was buying a rebuilt short block from him at Hershey one year and after paying him I realized the block was cracked between a water jacket. He said it was not a problem and I said your right I want my money back. He gave it back but went on about his guarantee etc etc. I think it was 90 days back then??

How can anyone with a reputable engine rebuilding business over look not seeing a crack that a customer spotted?, ----- to me the first thing would be to check the block for problems before going thru all the machining and bearing work, ----- maybe an unsupervised trainee ?, who knows.

[Chris Haynes]

I have an engine with a visible crack in the water jacket that I have used for 30 years. Never been a problem.

[john in illinois]

I had a problem with an engine 2 years after the warranty period. Rich was very helpful and even loaned me a tool to remove a hardened valve seat,no charge. He also sent the parts that I needed with the tool. I expected a bill,but didn't get one.I sure can't complain.

John

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Bob from Northport

As it turned out, we found a bad oil pump drive gear assembly in the engine, a part supplied to us by this company. The cam shaft was moving forward and back .040, and we watched through the access side plate on the timing cover as this was happening when the engine was running. The engine was knocking very loudly! We changed the part, and the problem disappeared.


Bob Campbell
Bob's Model A Ford Garage

I had one to do this once and it will make a noise like you have never heard. We observed the problem in the same way. I thought it was an oil pump problem but changed out all the parts like the oil pump, dist drive and, cam. I fixed the problem at my expense .
I did use the removed parts in different motors and had absolutely no problem with those parts in an individual position with different components.

[Calahan]

BOB,Thanks for posting that information , I am currently looking for a good rebuilder myself who can update my engine,,,,,,,,,Calahan

[Tom Wesenberg]

After rereading the initial problem, I see I asked the wrong question in my reply #7, but am still wondering what was the defect in the part, the oil pump drive gear?

Was it binding because it was oversized, when it should have been standard? Just need specific's so we know what to look for.

[BCCHOPIT]

NO INFO...
That is way they wont the engine back so they can check every thing out. Little shit like this cant be fixed on the phone. The guys how made the parts said it was good. 80 year old engines and china made parts I would never rebuild any thing for the Joe blow's to much BS
I just have the machine work done by a pro and do the rest my self.



Get your hands dirty and do the work your self (my 2 cents)

[ford1]

he said he changed the part and the noise went away

[5window]

Originally Posted by BCCHOPIT

NO INFO...
That is way they wont the engine back so they can check every thing out. Little shit like this cant be fixed on the phone. The guys how made the parts said it was good. 80 year old engines and china made parts I would never rebuild any thing for the Joe blow's to much BS
I just have the machine work done by a pro and do the rest my self.



Get your hands dirty and do the work your self (my 2 cents)

I think you have point,but maybe you would want to read your post over before submitting it so it made sense? I get that way=why,wont=want, how=who, but this "I would never rebuild any thing for the Joe blow's to much BS" I can't translate.

I don't think anyone would be surprised if dropping in new parts on an 80 year old motor would not always result in a sweet running motor out of the box. But, if you're paying rebuild prices, I think one would expect that everything would be squared up and machined true back to original or shimmed/sleeved and machined to accept close fitting parts,then tested.

[spike]

That engine rebuilder has a pretty good track record and I have know him for a long time and he has always treated everyone fair....I wouold want more info befor I would say he was at fault for shoddy work....just my 2 cents worth...

[BCCHOPIT]

Originally Posted by 5window

I think you have point,but maybe you would want to read your post over before submitting it so it made sense? I get that way=why,wont=want, how=who, but this "I would never rebuild any thing for the Joe blow's to much BS" I can't translate.

I don't think anyone would be surprised if dropping in new parts on an 80 year old motor would not always result in a sweet running motor out of the box. But, if you're paying rebuild prices, I think one would expect that everything would be squared up and machined true back to original or shimmed/sleeved and machined to accept close fitting parts,then tested.

Sorry the wife needed the laptop But its good to see we have a English teacher that plays with old cars. I would have liked school better if there was more gear heads teaching. I was trying to say I wouldn't wont to rebuild engines or any thing and then have to give it to the average guy (JOE BLOW) to install and hope he doesn't f@ck it up. Most engine guys have engine stands to run the engine before you pic it up. I went with a friend and the engine shop had his engine on the stand running when we got there. The engine went in the truck still warm.
If I payed big bucks for a engine and I put it in the car and it wasn't what I wanted. I would have brought it back so fast.

I was a solid D English student so I hope this was a little better for you.
Looking back I should have looked at the books more and not at the teacher's big tits

[Tom Wesenberg]

BCCHOPIT that was really funny!
I can hardly type because I'm laughing so hard my eyes are watering.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by BCCHOPIT

Sorry the wife needed the laptop But its good to see we have a English teacher that plays with old cars. I would have liked school better if there was more gear heads teaching. I was trying to say I wouldn't wont to rebuild engines or any thing and then have to give it to the average guy (JOE BLOW) to install and hope he doesn't f@ck it up. Most engine guys have engine stands to run the engine before you pic it up. I went with a friend and the engine shop had his engine on the stand running when we got there. The engine went in the truck still warm.
If I payed big bucks for a engine and I put it in the car and it wasn't what I wanted. I would have brought it back so fast.

I was a solid D English student so I hope this was a little better for you.
Looking back I should have looked at the books more and not at the Teachers big tits

I was trying to say I wouldn't wont to rebuild engines or any thing and then have to give it to the average guy (JOE BLOW) to install and hope he doesn't f@ck it up. Most engine guys have engine stands to run the engine before you pic it up.


This is one of the problems since nobody can do everything. It would be very expensive to go to every customers place and install the engines that are rebuilt. Every person that needs an engine is a gearhead but many have that dream or would like to try. Those who don't have the dream usually have someone that does to help. I do have a stand for pre-run and offer this to customers who purchase full rebuilds or supply the parts to do this.

If I payed big bucks for a engine and I put it in the car and it wasn't what I wanted. I would have brought it back so fast.

Now here is the difference in you and the poster, he didn't return the engine. His contact with the builder was on the phone, hard to diagnose problems on the phone. Generally, once the customer opens the engine the warranty is NULL and VOID. I don't know any builder that does this for a living that will honor a warranty when the item has been tampered with. Buy a new computer and remove the case and replace it and try to get warranty service on it, NO DICE, open the motor and same thing. The only things you can tamper with and get a replacement for are cheap krap things that they sell millions of and cover their azz with sales and bet you will throw it away instead of complaining.
If you read Rich's warranty online, it states the engine has to be returned for any problems and warranty service. This is the way most warranties read. I know I am not going to warranty ANY motor that a customer has opened ever again for the exact reason you state, Joe Blow doesn't know what he is doing. A warranty is a warranty and if the steps for repair or replacement are spelled out, you must follow those steps or VOID the warranty.Suppose someone bought one of your intakes and then drilled it with holes and complained it leaked then wanted it replaced at your expense. Would you do it? Then several of his friends did the same, would you replace theirs at your expense? You wouldn't be in business long either because you run out of parts and money or you just get disgusted and quit.

Just trying to look at both sides and play the devils advocate.

[John LaVoy]

I don't see how the oil pump drive gear would cause the cam to move in and out, that is the function of the plunger and spring on the timing gear cover. Have you looked to see if the cam is still moving?

I know of about 6 engines done by Richard and they are all great. I hope one response to a possible faulty part isn't too detrimental to his reputation.

[BCCHOPIT]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

Just trying to look at both sides and play the devils advocate.

I see both sides and I wouldn't wont to be on your side.

One small problem if there was a real problem and some one shits on your name. Now it will take 100+ guys to say there are very happy to undo one


p.s. I think you get a A++ for your reply. You must of had a ugly teacher

[pat in Santa Cruz]

I've installed 5 of his engines in the last year and every one was smooth and strong. I have been impressed with the attention to detail in his work. I always get a short block and have never gotten one with the oil pump gear installed. I usually try to get the customer to pop for a Stipe cam, because so many of these old re ground cams have the potential for drive gear slop, even when they look OK. Then the odds of a repro drive gear being mis machined or having an oversize mis labeled are certainly there. too.
I'm sorry you and Rich are having a falling out over this. I have found him to be very accommodating.

[rmak]

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Originally Posted by BCCHOPIT

Teachers big tits

No need to capitalize, and use the possessive form-teacher's.

Don't get bent out of shape. I'm just funnin' with ya!

[msmaron]

i have dealt with them and always found that Rich has gone out of his way to accommodate me.. When Tom was in town we went to his shop and he stopped what he was doing to put an oil slinger back on and gave us advice and tools to use. I cannot say a bad thing about him..
Good luck to all

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by BCCHOPIT

Sorry the wife needed the laptop But its good to see we have a English teacher that plays with old cars. I would have liked school better if there was more gear heads teaching. I was trying to say I wouldn't wont to rebuild engines or any thing and then have to give it to the average guy (JOE BLOW) to install and hope he doesn't f@ck it up. Most engine guys have engine stands to run the engine before you pic it up. I went with a friend and the engine shop had his engine on the stand running when we got there. The engine went in the truck still warm.
If I payed big bucks for a engine and I put it in the car and it wasn't what I wanted. I would have brought it back so fast.

I was a solid D English student so I hope this was a little better for you.
Looking back I should have looked at the books more and not at the teacher's big tits

Originally Posted by BCCHOPIT

I see both sides and I wouldn't wont to be on your side.

One small problem if there was a real problem and some one shits on your name. Now it will take 100+ guys to say there are very happy to undo one


p.s. I think you get a A++ for your reply. You must of had a ugly teacher

Originally Posted by rmak

Originally Posted by BCCHOPIT
Teachers big tits

No need to capitalize, and use the possessive form-teacher's.

Don't get bent out of shape. I'm just funnin' with ya!

.
.
.
.

Hey guys, ...why has the language here all of sudden seemingly gone into the toilets? Cannot we properly communicate here without using language like that?

.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

.
Hey guys, ...why has the language here all of sudden seemingly gone into the toilets? Cannot we properly communicate here without using language like that?

.

HAMB-itis. You can catch it by sitting near an open 'window'.

[rmak]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

.
.Hey guys, ...why has the language here all of sudden seemingly gone into the toilets? Cannot we properly communicate here without using language like that?

.

I was proofreading the grammar. If you want to edit for body parts and body functions, go for it!

[BCCHOPIT]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

.
.
.
.

Hey guys, ...why has the language here all of sudden seemingly gone into the toilets? Cannot we properly communicate here without using language like that?

.

SORRY DAD....
But I didn't use the U

Bottom line the guy how started all this POOP is now a no show. He had no real info to give just some crap about 5 6 engines and was never happy.
That doesn't sound very smart to me. 1 bad you let it slide 2 shame on you but 5. I would love to see the paper work on 5 engines.

I have never done work with A.E.R. but I do hope to get some parts for my B engine I have in the works.
I am glade to see some guys stand up and say they are happy with there engines.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by MikeK

HAMB-itis. You can catch it by sitting near an open 'window'.

--or in front of the 'proverbial' fan? "Dad" ............

/

[kelley's restoration]

i have and will continue to use rich for my stock type engine builds. he has never done us wrong, and the one time i can think of in the last 20 plus years he fixed at no charge in his shop (lifter was not ajusted correctly) i would say 1 out of possible 100-120 isnt bad.
tk

[Jerry Parr WI]

I have mixed feeling on this subject. I have three engines Rich rebuilt. The first had a rod that was severely twisted. Turning the engine over by hand you could see the crank jerk forward and back as the rod moved. Although he made it good I had to pull the engine to have that done. He did not pour the rod but I always felt that even a casual observation during assembly should have caught it. The second engine has had three valve seats come out. Repaired them myself as that was easier than pulling the engine and returning it. Engine three is setting on the floor years out of warranty and not yet installed. I don't give him a failing grade as he has always been willing to make his work good but I sure can't give him an outstanding for flawless work.

For James these were short blocks and did not require disassembly of any work he performed to analyze the problems. For ldj1002 engines two and three were done before the first one's problem became noticeable. Since I understand he has stopped pouring babbit and I am a babbit fan I won't need to consider using him again.

[Bob from Northport]

Message for BCCHOPIT
The guy who started this discussion has read every responce. Whether you believe 5 or 6 engines doesn't matter. Actually, we have purchased and installed 9 engines in the close past. Only 6 from AEB. The point of my discussion was not to belittle the man or his business. I don't like being told I am lying about how an engine runs or a bad part.
Rich supplied the part that was causing the problem. He didn't even offer to cover the cost of the new part, or sending the bad part back to him.
If you are happy with the quality of his work, stay with him. That is what I said in the beginning. How many car owners out there are going to completely disassemble an engine and ship it back at their cost when a problem arises.?? Secondly, this engine, and any other we purchased from him were NEVER test run. How can a warrenty be offered if you can't even verify if it will even operate right??
Didn't mean to upset everyone out there. But I've read more than a few problem/complaints from others on this posting.

Bob Campbell

[BCCHOPIT]

That is crazy not testing a engine before you ship it out of state. So many little things and bite you in the butt <<< pg for "DAD"
I wish you luck with your next engine builder. I know a guy up state NY if you need his info PM me.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

While I am not choosing sides necessarily, I will defend Rich and all the other engine builders out there a slight bit in that it is us as the consumer that often times is what has created this situation. We as hobbyists have chosen to be 'tight' with what we will pay for these services so the rebuilders have had to look for ways to charge less and still make a profit.

Also, since someone mentioned "testing each engine" before it is shipped, more often than not we as the consumer are not willing to pay for this. The simple mindset might be the engine builder needs to absorb this into the cost of doing business. I'd venture to say that most people don't have a clue as to the amount of time it takes to go through each of the machining operations, --or what truly is involved to rebuild an engine to meet your expectations. Heck, I doubt many know the actual time/costs it would take to even test run an engine before it is shipped.

My suggestion in all of this is to have a personal relationship with your engine rebuilder and pay him adequately for all the services you desire. I do this with my engine rebuilder. He offers the service of test-running the engine if I am willing to pay for it. I also explain what I want out of each engine I send to him, and I willingly pay for what I want where he can make a living too. It actually saves me and my customer money in the long run because nothing is assumed or left to chance. Now I am not implying this is what happened to Bob or anyone else but for me, I feel like this is the reason why over the years I have a 100% success rate from my current engine rebuilder.

.

[1931 flamingo]

Unless I missed it. It's interesting that A.E.R. has not responded on this thread....................JMO
Paul in CT

[ratamahata]

Always find a safe, if it fails once, one may wonder why? if it fails twice, maybe three times, it's time to get out of there ...
Time and money wasted, it is better to have a trusted person, that's true, but that does things right, (the cheap, is expensive) they say, but more important is the responsibility of the company to provide its the best customer service ....

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Unless I missed it. It's interesting that A.E.R. has not responded on this thread....................JMO
Paul in CT

I've never known Rich to post on any forum. I can definitely see his taking the high ground as a vendor and staying off the battlefields.

I've never had a problem with any of the machine work he has done for me, and when you walk in his door and talk to him at the parts counter, you would see the he is not out to screw anybody.

Several years ago I walked into his shop and snapped this picture- He was doing machine and valve work for Charlie Yapp on a pile of new Yapp/Riley two-port heads.

[Logan]

Rich built the motor in our sedan. About 9 months ago the piston seized up, freezing the motor. We got on the phone with rich, and even though it was out of warranty he covered shipping charges from texas to illinois, then he rebored/sleeved all cylinders and put new pistons in it, then shipped it back to us.... All this done for free, no charge to us. I dont exactly what happened in your case, but Rich has alway stood behind his work for us.

[FL&WVMIKE]

I can not imagine an engine builder, NOT testing an engine, before he turns it over to the customer.
I don't think that this should be something that he would charge his customer for either.
After all, he is checking his own work.
MIKE

[just plain bill]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

I can not imagine an engine builder, NOT testing an engine, before he turns it over to the customer.
I don't think that this should be something that he would charge his customer for either.
After all, he is checking his own work.
MIKE

I've been following this thread and some where's along the discussion I gathered that the thread was regarding rebuilt short blocks. Test running a short block would require some time and expense. Visually inspecting might not allow inspector to see some of these problems. I once ran a machine shop with several employees and, in those days, you had to rely on the individual to be responsible for the quality of his work. This was a high volume shop and believe me S--t happens. You can't look over the shoulder of each employee but you are responsible for his or her work. All of the employees are not dedicated to their job. Some don't mind getting to work at 8 AM it was just that godawful wait till 4 30. I guess all of this is BS if the vendor in question has a 1 man shop.

[Maclab58]

It angers me to be the witness to a witch hunt over a single complaint from one upset customer. I am sure due to this thread, Rich will lose some well deserved business. I purchased an engine from Rich in January. Installation went fine, he included complete installation and break in instructions. I had a small pinhole in the oil tube from the valve cover to the block. rich offered to ship me one or bring one with him to Chickasha to the pre war swap meet. He has been nothing but helpful. As for my engine, it runs like a striped ape! I plan to buy another one for my new slant window sedan as soon as I can save up the money.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

ALL ENGINE REBUILDERS, and INCLUDING ME, MY OPINION: There is no way, a rebuilder should have to run an Engine to check his work. It really tells you nothing anyway. I have seen Rebuilt engines on U-TUBE running with just a garden hose poked in the head, boy that does alot of good on a rebuild, and the video says, just listen to it Purr. Wore out engines that need rebuilding will purr on an engine stand, but in a car, won't get you across the street. Now, MOTOR TESTING, should start with a Clean, well machined block, and every subsequent part, or operation after. Just because you have new, or rebuilt parts, DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE USEABLE. They all have to be checked. I don't care who has rebuilt an Engine, there is NO Excuse, EVEN ONCE, for valve sets coming loose, piston sleeves down around the crankshaft, pistons stuck, or scored, Babbitt, or inserts going bad, cracks missed, valves leaking, Head Gasket because of improper decking, Flywheel housings out, along with every thing else. One thing many don't think about, if the shop you use, has a cylinder boring machine that sets on the top of a block to bore cylinders, and if it was made in the 40's up, and has never been checked for trueness, there is always a chance it is not. Those kind of portable boring bars are as good as any boring bar made, PROVIDED, THEY HAVE BEEN CHECKED FOR TRUENESS. These kind of bars, such as a Van-Norman, normally get, drug, slide, pushed, across the floor, tables, blocks, ect. and that destroys the hand scraped surface, that will let the bar bore from a flat true surface, at a 90 degree. The real big problem with these bars, are that Model A's, 90 %, and up have have been decked before in there life time. The most common surfacing machine was a Van Norman. It was about 6 ft. long, a maybe 12" grind stone in the middle, and both ends looked like a kitchen sink drain board. When you slide the block, and or heads across the grind wheel, it will deck the surface all right, but it was not necessarily running with the pan rail, so Boring cylinders at 90 degrees got lost some where. I have seen many of these surfacing machines, and some were wore, a 1/2 inch on the sides, and they were still using them. Herm.

[john in illinois]

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well said Jeff.

John

[zzlegend]

I second that Jeff. This reminds me of the Lion Speed Head thread. I just think its wrong to pound a guy on here for everyone to see. It appears that both the head maker and the engine builder have been doing this a long time and contribute alot to the Model A community. I say give the guy a chance. Not everyone has had a bad expierence. There are some very happy people out there using these two guys products. Any engine builder could have an unforeseen problem sometime, but i think most if not all would work with you to make it right. Phone calls do wonders sometimes.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by zzlegend

I second that Jeff. This reminds me of the Lion Speed Head thread. I just think its wrong to pound a guy on here for everyone to see. It appears that both the head maker and the engine builder have been doing this a long time and contribute alot to the Model A community. I say give the guy a chance. Not everyone has had a bad expierence. There are some very happy people out there using these two guys products. Any engine builder could have an unforeseen problem sometime, but i think most if not all would work with you to make it right. Phone calls do wonders sometimes.

Excuse me, ...I fail to see how it is the same. It is one thing to honestly state your personal experiences with a product, ...and it is another to "pound" a guy strictly on hearsay. I do agree that not everyone will have a bad experience with a product but when the truth is told giving all the facts, then consumers can make intelligent decisions based on their own observations. What I think many failed to understand in that thread is I personally don't care if Charlie sells a million Lion Heads, several of us had less than favorable experiences with our units and we should be entitled to tell our side of the story too without ridicule or criticism.

I might also add that there are many products that have been made by long-time manufacturers that contribute heavily to the Model A community that are still included in the 'Restorers Hall of Shame' due to their poor quality. Maybe we shouldn't speak the truth about those items either??

.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I'm still waiting to hear what the EXACT problem was? Was the drive gear oversized and binding? Did the drive gear have a badly machined tooth? Was the part damaged by dropping it?

Just would like to hear what the EXACT cause was for the problem.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Maclab58

It angers me to be the witness to a witch hunt over a single complaint from one upset customer. I am sure due to this thread, Rich will lose some well deserved business. I purchased an engine from Rich in January. Installation went fine, he included complete installation and break in instructions. I had a small pinhole in the oil tube from the valve cover to the block. rich offered to ship me one or bring one with him to Chickasha to the pre war swap meet. He has been nothing but helpful. As for my engine, it runs like a striped ape! I plan to buy another one for my new slant window sedan as soon as I can save up the money.

Is it REALLY that necessary for SOME Ford barners to try and destroy a person and their business here, I thought we were to discuss things not rip some one and their business apart.. This is way out of hand just like many of the posts here become... Can we NOT get along like civilized people and try to assist rather than brow beat and destroy!!

[Mitch//pa]

forget the he said she said conversations over the phone. the builder did make the offer to send the engine back for him to check. instead the consumer took the engine apart himself. doesn't that make any warranty's or good will null and void? i would think so.
this guy is being bashed without given the opportunity to correct the problem.

[AL in NY]

I'm with Jeff and Tom. What exactly was the problem with the part. We're still waiting to hear back from "Bob from Northport" to answer to some of the questions asked of him here. Rick is a "stand up guy" and does excellent work. I don't think we have the "whole" story from Bob concerning what really happened.

[2manycars]

Herm is right about checking new parts. I had an engine rebuilt by a guy who has been doing it for years here in CT. On start up, it had a knock, that sounded to me like a piston knock. I called immediatly, and he told me it was my fault for putting a high compression head on the engine. I put a standard head on and the noise was the same. I shorted out the plugs and found #3 was the noisy one. I pulled off the head again and found I could rock the #3 piston in the bore, and the others were snug. He still said it was my fault. I took the motor out and pulled the pistons and found a defective piston in #3. It was undersize by about .005. I bought new pistons, measured each one, and installed new rings, and it is now fine. I dont do business there anymore. I am not saying this relates to the original problem posted in the beginning of this thread, just agreeing with Herm that it is important to check every part and every measurement.

[Bob from Northport]

To Al in NY and Tom Wessenburg,
I have watched and read every post on this situation. This was NOT a witch hunt against Rich on my part. I called three times about this problem, and got no where with any discussion with him, except to send the engine back. As I asked already, how many of you would have totally disassmebled the engine and shipped it back at your expense??
As to what I have found-this is an attempt. I checked three gears(new) in my shop- all measured .902 on the drive gear diameter. The gear I received in the kit from AER measured .903, except for one area where the diameter measured .908. This gear was supposedly inspected by the manufacturer and found to be in perfect shape. There is one gear tooth that has a small chip off of it, as seen in the photo I enclosed. I did not see this when I sent it back to Rich, possibly I missed it. At the point across the gear is where the diameter changes, possibly causing the cam to move outward and back. The only way I can confirm that this gear is bad is to install it in another engine and run it. Dreamworks in Asheville said that he had the same problem, and when the part was removed and placed in another engine, no noise.
Right now, I can not simply take a good engine down and put this part in to satisfy the frustration seen here.
I know Rich did NOTmake it, merely supplied it in the rebuild kit. I was writing to complaining about his lack of concern with this engine and others we have questioned him about. Calling me a lier about a part causing an engine knock was absurd, since the engine runs quietly now with another gear assemble in it. We've been working on these cars as long as he has been alive. A simple "I'm sorry-I'll send a replacement part-just send back the bad one." would have been sufficient. Walt Bratton has never argued about a bad part EVER.
We've had some, but I still keep buying from him.
My thread was to let others know what happened and to question the warrenty process closer. I will place this part into an engine when the opportunity comes, and see what happens. That is all I can tell you about the cause of the knocking noise and what I have found.

Bob Campbell

[Tom Wesenberg]

" Calling me a lier about a part causing an engine knock was absurd, since the engine runs quietly now with another gear assemble in it."

I never called you a liar. In my 2 responses in this thread I simply asked to know the EXACT cause of the noise, so if the part was at fault we could all know what to keep an eye out for if we bought a similar part. I never took sides and never wanted to take sides, but just learn of a possible defective part and what to look for in that part.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

looks like another for the hall of shame. Can we find out who makes it? Was this supplied by Rich? I always rebuild a good original bushing with a new gear from Brattons or Snyders. Its an easy job. Never had any trouble with those.

[Bob from Northport]

The part in question was manufactured by RMJ International in Walton Hills, 44146. In the letter they returned with the part, they said "the assembly was thoroughly inspected, and found to have no defects. They could not see how the assembly could cause the cam to move forward and back, even though it did each revolution of the engine. There were some scratch marks on the main body, they referred to as damage. I had to wiggle and pry the unit out of the engine with plyers as it would not come out by hand like usual.

Thank all of you for your comments and interest. I didn't mean to create such a mess.

Henry Ford once said: Quality is doing it right when no one is looking."

Bob Campbell

[AL in NY]

Bob from Northport, thanks for the detailed explanation. The reason for my first post was to get clarification from you as to the real problem. This thread was starting to get out of hand as far as Antique Engine and Rich were concerned. Thanks again......

[C26Pinelake]

I was looking to have my engine rebuilt by him but you have now changed my mind and I won't go near him. Can anyone suggest someone in the Michigan / Illinois / Ohio area. Thanks Wayne

[Stan/MO.]

I bought a completely rebuilt chassie for my coupe....and I wish I could find out who rebuilt the motor...when you start it you can't even hear it run. The only thing you can hear is the spark in the distributor. My original motor had a loose wrist pin...you can imagine whate that sounded like. Any way I'm very pleased with my purchase...and I'm sure it is going to make a very enjoyable ride.
Stan

[JunkOSC]

Did you read the entire post? Only 2 people who posted (one being the original poster) have had issues with Rich. And the second persons issue was handled professionally by Rick. So was the original poster for that matter. AER has a great building reputation and I would order a engine from Rich in a heart beat. Time to move on. Oh, good luck on finding an engine builder.

Originally Posted by C26Pinelake

I was looking to have my engine rebuilt by him but you have now changed my mind and I won't go near him. Can anyone suggest someone in the Michigan / Illinois / Ohio area. Thanks Wayne

[Frank Nemo]

I only know about Rich from my own experience and that is he did an excellent rebuild for me five years ago. I have read this thread from start to finish and think it is a darn shame that an engine builder's reputation, built over many years can be jeprodized by one unhappy customer, who in my opinion should have resolved the problem directly with Rich out side this public forum.

[AL in NY]

Frank, my thoughts exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by C26Pinelake

I was looking to have my engine rebuilt by him but you have now changed my mind and I won't go near him. Can anyone suggest someone in the Michigan / Illinois / Ohio area. Thanks Wayne

Wayne, I concur with others that you really should look at Rich and the services he offers. While I don't believe he offers babbitted engines any longer, he & his company still needs to be given the benefit of the doubt if you are looking to have an engine rebuilt. Maybe even discuss this with him and hear what he has to say.

.

[5window]

Originally Posted by Frank Nemo

I only know about Rich from my own experience and that is he did an excellent rebuild for me five years ago. I have read this thread from start to finish and think it is a darn shame that an engine builder's reputation, built over many years can be jeprodized by one unhappy customer, who in my opinion should have resolved the problem directly with Rich out side this public forum.

I don't have a dog in this fight-no engine rebuild and I don't know the parties.
However, let's be honest and admit that the OP DOES NOT have a problem with the work done by the builder. Once the defective part was repaired,the motor ran fine.

What there is a problem with was Customer Service, and, in this case, I think the complaint was justified. Three calls back to the builder without perceived concern and no real solution offered. That, in my opinion, is the issue. It would seem the builder makes a fine motor and when everything is right, everyone who has run one is happy. With the two customers posting here who had issues, he's batting 50-50 and that's not the best odds.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by 5window

I don't have a dog in this fight-no engine rebuild and I don't know the parties.
However, let's be honest and admit that the OP DOES NOT have a problem with the work done by the builder. Once the defective part was repaired,the motor ran fine.

What there is a problem with was Customer Service, and, in this case, I think the complaint was justified. Three calls back to the builder without perceived concern and no real solution offered. That, in my opinion, is the issue. It would seem the builder makes a fine motor and when everything is right, everyone who has run one is happy. With the two customers posting here who had issues, he's batting 50-50 and that's not the best odds.

Well, I am not sure that is accurate either. Let's say that Rich & his team are only sending out 2 engines a week, --or 100 engines annually, ...and they have been doing this for a decade now. Lets suppose that the two customers with complaints you mentioned has actually been 5 customers during this time. In actuality, that is only ½ a percent negative feedback per annum!

Folks need to realize that even the last perfect individual that walked this Earth received criticism and was crucified unjustly. The people that are manufacturing parts for you, or providing services for you are human too. As Paul Harvey made a great living telling, sometime we need to hear the rest of the story. We have heard from Bob, and while I have no reason not to believe what he is saying, many of you folks who are playin' "Judge & Jury" have not heard testimony from the other individual. Maybe that is because he feels like it is none of our business. In some ways, that may be the correct attitude to have. It also may be a situation that if the truth is analyzed fully from both sides, each side may be totally correct in their position. Then what? It used to be that the Customer was always Right, ...but in this modern society we live in, often times Customer's morals & ethics are in the gutter when they are trying to get something for nothing. I'm definately not implying this is the case for Bob, but we as businessmen have become calloused in this regard. Need additional proof, ...look at eBay and how things are mishandled there!!

I still say we need to give Rich the benefit of the doubt with our open minds and keep our mouths shut with regard to hearsay about this on things we have no personal knowledge about.

.

[Gerard]

is the subject closed by now ???

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Gerard

is the subject closed by now ???

IF NOT, IT SHOULD BE!

Maybe an "AMEN" would help!

[CarlG]

amen !

[Ross/Kzoo]

And Amen!

[peters180a/170b]

Amen my ass [been there done that]...lets party.... anyone going to the A.A.C.A. Spring Meet in Stowe, Vermont on the 21 of May?????? see ya there...

[Bruce Adams]

Originally Posted by C26Pinelake

I was looking to have my engine rebuilt by him but you have now changed my mind and I won't go near him. Can anyone suggest someone in the Michigan / Illinois / Ohio area. Thanks Wayne

FWIW
I am just one of many Model A owners who has received a quality rebuilt long block engine from AAE, with quick responses to my questions.
I would not hesitate to purchase another engine from them.

I, for one, WOULD NOT have let what I have read in this thread be the determining factor in my engine rebuilder choice.
There are war stories with EVERY supplier.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

Amen my ass [been there done that]...lets party.... anyone going to the A.A.C.A. Spring Meet in Stowe, Vermont on the 21 of May?????? see ya there...

can't afford the gas are you going to macungie??

[peters180a/170b]

Mitch [God Willing] I do plan on going. afford or not i have many friends in P.A. and its always a great meet. SEE YA THERE [maybe under the tree....]

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

Mitch [God Willing] I do plan on going. afford or not i have many friends in P.A. and its always a great meet. SEE YA THERE [maybe under the tree....]

pete okay its a date

save me a spot under that tree

[C26Pinelake]

Your comments make good sense. In retrospect anyone can make a mistake. I will contact him to discuss this situation and the possible rebuild of my two engines.
I guess I jumped the gun and got caught up in the heat of the debate.
Thanks for bringing me back to earth.
Have a great day my friends. Wayne in Michigan