U-joint Play (again!)

[Buford40]

Sorry if this sounds like a repeat from previous posts, but I have a question that I don’t believe has been addressed before. So, please bear with me….
I have a 1940 3 speed top loader that needed to be rebuilt. When I removed it, I noticed it has a Bob Drake u-joint with a lot of play in it (it moves on the shaft quite a bit).

I found this post from over 6 years ago. It definitely described my u-joint issue: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...niversal+joint
Richardtx said: When you bolt the universal joint to the output shaft on a closed drive transmission is there play on the shaft. I have about a 1/4" play with the bolt tightened.
Thamks
Dick Spadaro said: “Well the customer was correct and the U joint did not operate correctly or bolt down correctly. To determine the issue I disassembled the U-joint and determined that the heavy main drive washer supplied in the U -joint was installed incorrectly. My customer felt that that was the issue so I went with his suggested problem.

By flipping the washer over so the cup or concave side faced the main shaft and reassembled, the U joint functioned and installed correctly. Thus I think that this is the issue with your U joint. Look in the spline drive shaft end if the washer is concave to your sight its inverted as to its correct position. To fix the issue you must disassemble the u-joint and flip the washer so the concave faces the transmission mainshaft and everything will work as intended.”

I found out the washer on my u-joint was, in fact, upside down. So, I disassembled and reassembled it correctly. That took out a lot of the play. However, it didn’t take it all away. I still have .065" play (see pic ujoint2.jpg). There is a definite gap between the washer and the body of the u-joint (see pics ujoint1 and ujoint6).

Before I condemn the quality of the Bob Drake u-joint body, I need to know if that’s the problem or if the problem is in the washer. The length of the body of the Bob Drake u-joint is 1.280” (see pic ujoint3). Is this the correct length, or should it be more like 1.345?” When I put the u-joint on the shaft (bottomed out on the output bearing), it lines up with the bottom of the bevel on the splines (see pic ujoint4). That looks “right” to me. If the body was longer, it would stick up past the bottom of the bevel—that looks odd to me (see pic ujoint5). That makes me wonder if the washer is the problem, and that it should be “bigger” to cover the gap.

So, before I just spring for a new u-joint, can anyone confirm that my current u-joint body is too short, or if my washer should be larger?

Thanks for your help!

[Hal Beatty]

The one I have that came out of a 48 is not disassembled so I just used the tail of the caliper as a depth gauge; came out at 1.500"... The U-joint should have NO play on the trans. output shaft; if there is, it will allow the shaft to move in the rear bearing and mess things up inside the transmission.

[john in illinois]

I had that problem with a Drake Lincoln u joint about 6 years ago. There was a thread about it here at the time. I got an original Ford ujoint from Fred Wilner at Southside Obsolete.


John

[john in illinois]

By the way Buford,welcome to the forum.

John

[Mart]

Hello Buford. Something looks screwy about that joint. I would have to go to the garage to check, but the central part is normally recessed and the washer fits down inside the recess. But most importantly, the washer fits down hard on the joint with free space between the washer and shaft so it clamps the joint tight to the bearing etc.

I think you need to source a good original or nos joint. Also they should be hard to dismantle. They shouldn't be apart like that normally.

As a side issue some people don't realise that an original joint in good condition will have a certain amount of free play in the joint itself. Not in a rotational direction but each part can slide on the bushings somewhat to accommodate a small amount of misalignment between the trans and driveshaft.

Mart.

[Talkwrench]

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when it does get bolted up and it should be tight, you should check the position of the baffle too. Should be the tiniest gap.

[Ken/Alabama]

I can tell you with certainty that those reproduction u-joints are junk. They will trash your transmission if they don’t tighten up. Find a NOS or good used joint .

[Kerk]

I would also advise the the Special cupped washer is a must have & use. JMHO kerk

[Kerk]

Also I should have said the Special Washer it is also Much Thicker than a normal washer/ Once ouy see it you will notice the difference. kerk

[34PKUP]

If you have the old U joint, compare the depth.
Even if you don't have the old one, it seems that a fabricated washer of necessary thickness to go between the joint and the bearing surface would correct the problem.

[Kube]

I am guessing most of you do not realize that isn't a washer.
It is a spring. It is a Belleville spring. In this application, it acts as a lock washer. The convex side goes directly beneath the actual lock washer.
That u-joint needed to stay positively seated always or Ford would not have gone to this "extreme".

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Kerk

Also I should have said the Special Washer it is also Much Thicker than a normal washer/ Once ouy see it you will notice the difference. kerk

Correct. I'll try to get a pict.

[19Fordy]

Thanks, Kube for that "not a washer" info. As a side question,
With the universal removed from the car, how to you determine if the "play" between the two halves is acceptable? Should there be "ZERO" play but still be able to slide on the pin?

I ask because I have about 10 used OEM Ford universal joints and would like to find out if they are still usable. Thanks.

[Tim Ayers]

This is the one Roy (now Michael @ Third Gen) makes. The little tab keeps it locked in place.

[Buford40]

Originally Posted by john in illinois

By the way Buford,welcome to the forum.

John

Thanks John! Once I got back into the hobby with my 40, I've found Fordbarn and the HAMB to be amazing sources of information.

[tubman]

From what "Kube" said ("convex side"), it sounds like the washer should be slightly cupped. THe one in the picture doesn't appear to be. Is it just that it's so slight that it doesn't show?

[19Fordy]

tubman: Could it be that the little tab on the washer shown above is bent so as to provide needed compression? Notice the downward indent on the tab which is suppose to hold the washer in place. Wonder why they just didn't make a cupped washer like the original?

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by tubman

From what "Kube" said ("convex side"), it sounds like the washer should be slightly cupped. THe one in the picture doesn't appear to be. Is it just that it's so slight that it doesn't show?

It is ever so slightly.

[Buford40]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

This is the one Roy (now Michael @ Third Gen) makes. The little tab keeps it locked in place.

My washer looks way different. I reckon that's because of the design difference between the OEM Ford and the Bob Drake LZ u-joints. Regardless, I'm aiming to get a NOS u-joint and bolt and washer...

[19Fordy]

Here's a company that makes Belleville washers.
https://www.phoenixspecialty.com/pro...eville-washers

Here's more sources.
https://www.fandisc.com/disc-springs...iAAEgKFVvD_BwE

[Buford40]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I reckon I'll be getting a NOS u-joint. Since I've included pics and measurements of what "bad" looks like, I plan to include pics and measurements of what "good" looks like once I have it....

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Buford40

My washer looks way different. I reckon that's because of the design difference between the OEM Ford and the Bob Drake LZ u-joints. Regardless, I'm aiming to get a NOS u-joint and bolt and washer...

I have a Ford one too. I just couldn't find it.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by tubman

From what "Kube" said ("convex side"), it sounds like the washer should be slightly cupped. THe one in the picture doesn't appear to be. Is it just that it's so slight that it doesn't show?

The authentic washer was "cupped" as you state.
Prior to retirement, I made numerous dies that produced these Belleville's in about as many sizes and pressure as a guy could imagine.
That repop washer depicted in your post does not appear to be correct. Will it function properly? Me? I wouldn't chance it.
Plus, it's obvious it has never been heat treated so how exactly is it to have a memory?
I just don't envision that one working as Ford designed.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Kube

The authentic washer was cupped as you state.
Prior to retirement, I made numerous dies that produced these Belleville's in about as many sizes and pressure as a guy could imagine.
That repop washer depicted in your post does not appear to be correct. Will it function properly? Me? I wouldn't chance it.

Ray was a smart guy, took great pride in his products and used what he made. I seriously doubt he would put something out there that wasn't correct.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

tubman: Could it be that the little tab on the washer shown above is bent so as to provide needed compression? Notice the downward indent on the tab which is suppose to hold the washer in place. Wonder why they just didn't make a cupped washer like the original?

There's a lot more that goes in to manufacturing a Belleville spring than the "cup". There are designed load specifications at specific heights of deflection, hardness ratings, etc.

[Kube]

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Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Ray was a smart guy, took great pride in his products and used what he made. I seriously doubt he would put something out there that wasn't correct.

Roy, (not RAY) was a very close and personal friend. I was fortunate to have spent a lot of time with the man.
You are welcome to doubt this particular part. In fact I suggest you install it in your car.

[19Fordy]

Anyone care to tackle my "How to tell if a U joint is good" question? Thanks. JIM

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Kube

Roy, (not RAY) was a very close and personal friend. I was fortunate to have spent a lot of time with the man.
You are welcome to doubt this particular part. In fact I suggest you install it in your car.

Kube,

I apologize for my typo. I knew it was Roy. I lost my good friend this morning over the virus. I'm not in a good place emotionally right now I'm going to step away for a bit.

If you last comment was a snarky response, I totally don't appreciate it.
If I'm reading more into your intended tone, then I apologize in advance.



Thanks,

Tim

[Mart]

Sorry to hear that Tim. Awful things are happening right now.

In response to 19Fordy.

If you take the joint and try and rotate the two ends relative to each other and can feel negligible play, while still having an ability to slide freely sideways on both sides of the cross piece, then (I would say) the joint is serviceable.

Any rotational play or looseness between the bushings and the yokes means keep looking.

Mart.

[aussie merc]

just thought why not fit a spacer behind the yoke this is the way eaton keep their yokes tight. [ works just about every heavy truck trans uses this method]

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Kube,

I apologize for my typo. I knew it was Roy. I lost my good friend this morning over the virus. I'm not in a good place emotionally right now I'm going to step away for a bit.

If you last comment was a snarky response, I totally don't appreciate it.
If I'm reading more into your intended tone, then I apologize in advance.



Thanks,

Tim

Apology accepted.

[Buford40]

Originally Posted by Buford40

Thanks everyone for your comments. I reckon I'll be getting a NOS u-joint. Since I've included pics and measurements of what "bad" looks like, I plan to include pics and measurements of what "good" looks like once I have it....

I got a rebuilt original u-joint from Mac VanPelt. It is as Hal had measured--it has a 1.5" long yoke. When I put this u-joint on my tranny, it sticks up about 1/8" (vs the Bob Drake unit being too short). Also, the washer that I got from Mac is similar to what Tim had posted earlier. It actually nestles into the yoke a little, plus the tab locks it into one of the slots in the yoke.

So, this solves my u-joint play problem. As for why Drake makes/sells units that are so short, I'll let someone else figure that out.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Buford40

As for why Drake makes/sells units that are so short, I'll let someone else figure that out.

I'd venture a guess that "Bob's boys" have likely "never heard of that problem before".

[Hal Beatty]

Now that's the way it's supposed to look!

[19Fordy]

Buford40: Here's a helpful thread.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...sal+joint+bolt