Ford 150 OD Transmission install in 31 Roadster

[JRN1967]

Originally Posted by bettlesr

In answer to John (JHN1967) from a while back, sorry for the delay, didn't see your post until today. Yes, the shift lever comes out about 2" closer to the seat. When I welded a Model A shift lever on to the stub sticking out of the transmission I tacked it on and checked the position of the shifter in all gears and then tweaked it until it felt comfortable. The the shift lever was welded solid,

Bettlesr, thank you for answering my question.

[JRN1967]

AL or Ken, I've read just about every post or thread on the subject of this
conversion. Including the one by manyolcars on the HAMB.
Searched SYNCHRONIZED 3 SPEED W/OVERDRIVE

One answer I can never seem to find is, how do I determine where to make the
cut for the output shaft? Based on photos from others, it looks like you have
to fabricate your tail shaft plate and bearing retainer arrangement. Then mock
it up to the rear of the transmission. Then mark it flush with the end of the
bearing retainer. Is that how you decide where to make the cut?

Or is there some predetermined amount to cut off the end of the output shaft?
After the cut is made, it seems like you could take the shaft to a shop and have
them spline it almost to where the rear sealed bearing ends.

Thoughts?

[kenparker]

OK, I will try to explain. If it does not make sense email me and I can explain further. ([email protected]).

Each vendor has a different of fabricating the Rear Backing Plate/Bearing Retainer. I have done it two ways. But First, never cut your Output Shaft until the splines are cut into the shaft. The machinist needs the centering dimple in the back end of the shaft to keep it centered while machining. The splines are made to match the Model A Ujoint. Once the splines are cut, then, cut the shaft to length.

How Long is the shaft cut to? This depends on how the Rear Backing Plate/Bearing Retainer is built. In early versions (15-18years ago) I made the Plate out of a 1 1/4" thick Aluminum Plate, Then the back half of the Model A U Joint - Clamshell - was bolted to it.

The later version and one I used up until last year is/was made from the front 1/2" of the F150 Tail Housing. Then a 1/4" thick piece of steel Flat Plate, to which the Model A Transmission Rear Bearing Retainer was bolted. Then the clamshell. I have over 35 kits built like this.

I dont remember much about the early version, other than it was 1 1/4" thisk and all one piece, that was over 15 years ago.

The late version, from back surface of transmission to back surface of the Model A Transmission Bearing Reatiner is exactly 2" thick. (not counting the clamshell). The criterior was that it fit without cutting into the Center Cross Member.

The splines are cut to make the U Joint come out center into the U Joint Cover.
Half of the Ujoint in the Bearing Reatainer and half of the Ujoint in the Clamshell.

Note: Not all machine shops can cut the type of spline that matches the Model A U joint.

I do have drawings showing how and where to cut splines and final cutoff of the shaft, but they are based on the 2" thick Rear Adaptor Plate.

This and some of the other machine work is far more complicated than lots of folks imagine. For expample My Drive Shafts adn Torque tubes are cut 2 3/16 shorter. One would think the Radias Rods would also be 2 3/16" short, but, due ato angle it does not work out that way. n the Radias Rods if you are off by .015 on the Rods the large bolt that connects the Rods to the Torque Tube wont fit.

Another thing to consider is Torque Tubes are not round - out of round by as much as 1/4 inch. Its thee center line - Drive shaft center - that is critical. When cutting Torqur Tubes KEEP THE CENTER LINE PRECISE or it WILL vibrate.

If this helps, good. If not I will try again. ken

[kenparker]

OOps left out a note. MRC makes a sealed bearing that perfectly matches the original bearings in the RTS transmissioins.

[AL in NY]

JRN1967: When I built my F150 conversion I didn't record any of the measurements that Ken spoke of. I cut the tailshaft housing off close to the bearing retainer plate and milled the inside/backside of that plate flat. It was probably close to the thickness Ken had ( 1/2"). I then made a 3/4" aluminum plate and fit behind the F150 tailshaft plate I had made previously. That aluminum plate had a recess milled in it that fit the Model A front clamshell(the one with the 4 bolts hole in it).
To determine where to cut and machine the RTS mainshaft, I remounted the Model A front clamshell on the Model A transmission and took a measurement from the clamshell to the end of the Model A transmission's mainshaft. Now, remount the clamshell on the assembled F150 transmission and transfer the first measurement to the F150 mainshaft. Now you know where the F150 mainshaft needs to be cut.
To determine the spline length on the F150, measure it on the Model A mainshaft and transfer that measurement to the RTS mainshaft.
For the measurements to shorten the torque tube, driveshaft and radius rods I assembled the engine and F150 transmission and mounted them in the car and just did measurements from the rear of the transmission to the differential. It worked out for me. I probably shorten everything about 2 1/2", but I don't know for sure.
Hope this helps...............

[old31]

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Within the last few weeks I received my fully syncro/overdrive kit from David Delhome.

Dave has been nothing but first class all the way. He promptly answered all of my stupid questions by either phone or email.

I went with Dave because he keeps the torque tube, does not make alterations to the frame or brake units, didn't have a second lever in the cab, is about $1k cheaper than Mitchell overdrive and Synch set up.

All of the guys doing the trans/OD set ups are priced about the same. All of the conversions are very good, and it becomes personal preference as to what you want or don't want.

I also like the idea of just one box to install instead of Mitchells two boxes.

I spoke with many owners of Mitchell and they love them. I spoke with Mitchell and they were great. I spoke with Volvo owners and they love them. I spoke with two of the other manufactures (I don't remember the names) but they got rid ofthe torque tube, and or made alterations to the frame and/or brakes.

I haven't started the project, but I will report my findings when it is completed.

Dave supplies the shortened t tube, shortened drive shaft, shortened rear radius arms, bell housing, throwout bearing, clutch disk, gearshift, floor template to cut out the floor/carpet and spacers to make the trans fit. The quality of his work really looks great.

Enclosed is the trans I received.

[max1932]

Gary Bernard. His kit includes shortened enclosed driveshaft.

[JRN1967]

Originally Posted by kenparker

.
But First, never cut your Output Shaft until the splines are cut into the shaft. The machinist needs the centering dimple in the back end of the shaft to keep it centered while machining. The splines are made to match the Model A Ujoint. Once the splines are cut, then, cut the shaft to length.

I'm so glad that I asked that question before I made the cut.

How Long is the shaft cut to? This depends on how the Rear Backing Plate/Bearing Retainer is built.

The later version and one I used up until last year is/was made from the front 1/2" of the F150 Tail Housing. Then a 1/4" thick piece of steel Flat Plate, to which the Model A Transmission Rear Bearing Retainer was bolted. Then the clamshell. I have over 35 kits built like this.

In the manyoldcars thread I spoke of earlier, He gives credit to you Ken for teaching him how to do this conversion. He also shows some good pics of the process. I believe his pics show the same rear backing plate/bearing retainer arrangement that you speak of. I bet this would give the same 2" thick from the back of the transmission surface to the back retainer surface?

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...uetube.728951/

The splines are cut to make the U Joint come out center into the U Joint Cover. Half of the Ujoint in the Bearing Reatainer and half of the Ujoint in the Clamshell.

Ok, this makes sense that the U-joint should be centered between the retainer and the clamshell when they are joined together.

Note: Not all machine shops can cut the type of spline that matches the Model A U joint.

Another thing to consider is Torque Tubes are not round - out of round by as much as 1/4 inch. Its thee center line - Drive shaft center - that is critical. When cutting Torqur Tubes KEEP THE CENTER LINE PRECISE or it WILL vibrate.

If this helps, good. If not I will try again. ken

I guess, I won't really understand the torque tube until I take one apart.
But I plan on doing this in three steps 1) Transmission 2) Bell housing 3) Torque tube and Radius Rods.

Ken, this is very helpful I will probably read it several times before I'm finished. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me.

John

[JRN1967]

Originally Posted by AL in NY

JRN1967: When I built my F150 conversion I didn't record any of the measurements that Ken spoke of. I cut the tailshaft housing off close to the bearing retainer plate and milled the inside/backside of that plate flat. It was probably close to the thickness Ken had ( 1/2"). I then made a 3/4" aluminum plate and fit behind the F150 tailshaft plate I had made previously. That aluminum plate had a recess milled in it that fit the Model A front clamshell(the one with the 4 bolts hole in it).

Al, It seems like yours and Ken's version of the bearing retainer and clam shell arrangement is very similar in thickness. I think I read in one of your posts that your transmission doesn't touch the frame either?

To determine where to cut and machine the RTS mainshaft, I remounted the Model A front clamshell on the Model A transmission and took a measurement from the clamshell to the end of the Model A transmission's mainshaft. Now, remount the clamshell on the assembled F150 transmission and transfer the first measurement to the F150 mainshaft. Now you know where the F150 mainshaft needs to be cut.

Makes me wish I had a second model a transmission just to take measurements, that way I could run the car until I had all the parts ready.

To determine the spline length on the F150, measure it on the Model A mainshaft and transfer that measurement to the RTS mainshaft.
For the measurements to shorten the torque tube, driveshaft and radius rods I assembled the engine and F150 transmission and mounted them in the car and just did measurements from the rear of the transmission to the differential. It worked out for me. I probably shorten everything about 2 1/2", but I don't know for sure.
Hope this helps...............

It does help, because there's more then one way to skin a cat. Knowing you did this without buying a kit helps me believe I can do it too. It's not only about saving money, It's about putting all the tools I've accumulated over the years to good use.

Thank you,
John

[Gavin]

I have an ex F150 three plus one top loader in my 28 Roadster. It has an open drive shaft with V8 rear radius arms which are heavier than the Model a ones. Its done about 5000 miles and a couple of weeks ago one of the arms broke at the end that bolts onto the backing plate. I am thinking of fitting an adjustable rod (like the Panhard Snyders have listed) from the top of the axle to a cross member we fitted. This should to prevent the axle rotating. Has anyone else with an open driveshaft had this problem?

[AL in NY]

Gavin, with an open driveshaft, you need to strengthen the radius rods so they don't bend or break from the braking/acceleration torque of the rear axle. That's what the torque tube did that you removed. If the rear axle torque is not handled correctly, the car can be dangerous to drive.

[kenparker]

Gavin, I weld up the seam that runs the length of the Radias Rod, then add some strength to the joint area at the rear end where the tube part of the RR mates to the flat bracket that bolts to the axel tube. I do above even with the shortened torque tube

On my speedster that had open drive line I added a 1" x 1 1/4" x1/8" Angle iron that ran the full length of the RR plus welded up the seam. ken

[wensum]

I have been trying to find the information on the gearbox codes for the three ratios? It was only after I installed my 4.1 box that I discovered there were three overdrive ratios and the numbers cast into the side of the box enable you to know which ratio the box is. Is someone able to let me know what these codes are?
Many thanks
Keith

[kenparker]

It is NOT a "code cast into the side of the box" It is a code on a metal tag attached to the passenger side next to the front of the box. The first three letters on the top row of the tag should be RTS the next two letters are the code for the OD ratio.
Attached is the chart. Hope it is readable. ken

[kenparker]

pix shows tag an its location. Unmolested transmission - just cleaned up.

[AL in NY]

Here's a more readable version of the chart I posted:

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by old31

Within the last few weeks I received my fully syncro/overdrive kit from David Delhome.

Dave has been nothing but first class all the way. He promptly answered all of my stupid questions by either phone or email.

I went with Dave because he keeps the torque tube, does not make alterations to the frame or brake units, didn't have a second lever in the cab, is about $1k cheaper than Mitchell overdrive and Synch set up.

All of the guys doing the trans/OD set ups are priced about the same. All of the conversions are very good, and it becomes personal preference as to what you want or don't want.

I also like the idea of just one box to install instead of Mitchells two boxes.

I spoke with many owners of Mitchell and they love them. I spoke with Mitchell and they were great. I spoke with Volvo owners and they love them. I spoke with two of the other manufactures (I don't remember the names) but they got rid ofthe torque tube, and or made alterations to the frame and/or brakes.

I haven't started the project, but I will report my findings when it is completed.

Dave supplies the shortened t tube, shortened drive shaft, shortened rear radius arms, bell housing, throwout bearing, clutch disk, gearshift, floor template to cut out the floor/carpet and spacers to make the trans fit. The quality of his work really looks great.

Enclosed is the trans I received.

Glad to see that someone besides me is speaking well of Dave Delmue's kit.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by max1932

Gary Bernard. His kit includes shortened enclosed driveshaft.

But he uses the A bellhousing and that requires modifying the rear cross member. The primary reason I did not choose Gary to supply my kit.

[john in illinois]

I'm with Carl. I just bought a f100 steering box and an adjustable drag link from Dave. He shipped it promptly and provided good instructions. The drag link is a work of art.

I have had his transmission almost 10 years.

John

[old31]

As mentioned, I would report my findings when it is completed. The Dave Delmue's kit is completed.

Carl is right on the money with this one.

All I can say is wow, wow,wow. Oh, did I say wow?

The fit of all of Dave's parts was tremendous. He thought of everything, made it easy, just the way a kit should be. The only part I had to work with to fit was the clutch adjusting arm and trunion. I had to move it over 5/16's to line up between my clutch pedal and Daves trans. Not a big deal.

The trans make it possible to keep up with any traffic because you are able to take off quick and keep moving quickly. It is great taking off from a light with cars behind you. As fast as you want to shift, you can shift. As fast as you want to downshift at any speed in any of the 4 gears, you can downshift.

I have not taken it on the highway yet and I cant wait.

When you look under the car everything looks original. You really have to go looking to see a little larger trans underneath.

Questions:
For those of you who know the transmission. How do you change the oil without a drain plug. Why in the world didn't Ford install one, I don't get it.

How often are you suppose to change the oil?

Second gear is not as smooth to get into as the others. Maybe it will break in, is there a way to make an easy adjustment?