31 Deluxe Roadster too much oil, should I drain some?

[old31]

Should I drain some out so that it equals full, or just leave it?

I did an oil change and put in 5 quarts. The oil is about 3/4 in above the full mark.

After reading some oil threads it looks like I should have put in 4 or 4.5 quarts.

So, is the correct amount 4 or 4.5? I do not have a filter.

[Mitch//pa]

Make sure your checking it on level ground.
Yes put it at the full mark, some run less than that to cover up oil leaks and rear main problems....

[JOHN CT]

Well you have a choice you can try to drain a quart or you can clean it up off of the garage floor. Any extra oil will leak from the rear main. It will find a happy level.

[Skibb]

To drain a quart, have someone tightly cover the oil fill tube while you loosen the oil drain plug. But, this could be messy. You are not the only one who's done this at least once or twice.

[katy]

Instead of trying to drain out one quart, drain all the oil out into a clean drain pan and then put 4 quarts of that oil back in, check the level on the dipstick and adjust as necessary.

[RonC]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Leave it. It takes 5 but only about 4.5 come out when you drain it. 1/2 over will do no harm

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by katy

Instead of trying to drain out one quart, drain all the oil out into a clean drain pan and then put 4 quarts of that oil back in, check the level on the dipstick and adjust as necessary.

Likely will save a big mess. Add four quarts and check and run the engine a little while. Then check the level the next morning after it has all drained down, Wayne

[Tom Wesenberg]

3/4" over the full line sounds like quite a bit for adding 5 quarts instead of 4 1/2 quarts.
Is there any chance the oil pan has a lot of sludge, or have you cleaned it?

[old31]

No I have not cleaned the oil pan. The engine has about 1,500 miles on a rebuild. I would only "assume" they cleaned it.

I just checked it again after a 50 mile ride. More like 1/2 inch over the full mark.

I like Katy's method of fixing it, and will do it that way.

So, is the correct amount 4 or 4.5. I guess I will start with 4 and slowly see when it stops on full.

[Tom Wesenberg]

The pan would be clean with only 1,500 miles on a rebuild.
I use 4 quarts for an oil change because I buy it in a gallon jug.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by RonC

Leave it. It takes 5 but only about 4.5 come out when you drain it. 1/2 over will do no harm

I have to disagree. Put five qts in if the engine is newly rebuilt and has not yet had oli added. After that initial fill, only four qts should be added at oil change. Excessive oil will be pushed out the rear main, an unnecessary waste and mess.

[Utopia Texas]

I've wondered in the past whether all Model A dip sticks, especially repro, have the fill line in the correct place. My Model A takes five quarts to reach the "F" . What is the proper distance on the dip stick from the tip of the loop down the stick to the proper fill mark?

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Utopia Texas

I've wondered in the past whether all Model A dip sticks, especially repro, have the fill line in the correct place. My Model A takes five quarts to reach the "F" . What is the proper distance on the dip stick from the tip of the loop down the stick to the proper fill mark?

https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread...ipstick+length

Do a search "oil dipstick length". All sorts of info pops up to answer your question

[old31]

So, would this make any difference with anything? Is it the correct dipstick?

I have a 29 engine with a 30 style dipstick.

Dipstick is 7-15/16 inches.

1 and 1/2 inches to the top of the F mark.

1/4 inch to the L mark.

[old31]

Tom, I might have been wrong about my sludge. I just drained the oil into a clean pan, I did an oil change about 200 miles ago.

I had about a 1/2 inch of sludge built up on the top of my drain plug in 200 miles.

The previous owner and me have been using non detergent oil.

1: Should I be using a different "non sludge" producing oil? If so, what is recommended.

2: I am going to pull the pan and see what is in there. Besides an oil pan gasket, is there anything else I should get? What is the best pan gasket?

3: Once the pan is off is there anything else I could/should do?

I have read many past threads on types of oils synthetic vs non, and pan gaskets.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by katy

Instead of trying to drain out one quart, drain all the oil out into a clean drain pan and then put 4 quarts of that oil back in, check the level on the dipstick and adjust as necessary.

Hey old31,
X-2 on katy advice.
As an extra 'bonus' to doing it this way, after 1500 mi, when you drain it all, the entire contents can then be closely looked at for evidence of what has been going on during the 1500 mi. Any silver flecks and iron chips, etc will tell you good, bad and/or ?

[Dollar Bill]

That's a lot of sludge for such a low mileage engine. I wouldn't recommend no detergent oil for anything except an air compressor.

[Mitch//pa]

1500 miles and an 1/2 inch of sludge....wow... Some rebuild job

Make sure you run a thermostat to heat the engine up better

[katy]

In this day and age why would anyone want to run non-detergent oil? It was used "back in the day" because that's all there was. IIRC detergent oil came out in the late '50s, correct me ifn I'm wrong.

[tbirdtbird]

"The previous owner and me have been using non detergent oil."

big mistake

[Mitch//pa]

I can't see it building up 1/2 " of sludge in 1500 miles with non detergent oil

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

I can't see it building up 1/2 " of sludge in 1500 miles with non detergent oil

If that is the case, then would I be correct in guessing it is running very, very rich and/or the rings are not yet seated?

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by P.S.

If that is the case, then would I be correct in guessing it is running very, very rich and/or the rings are not yet seated?

And would probably have a crankcase full of fuel

[Tom Wesenberg]

To check for sludge you could drain the oil and use an Allen wrench or wire bent into an L shape, then stick it inside the drain hole and spin it to scrape the pan bottom and see if it picks up any sludge.

[RonC]

using non detergent oil would allow sludge to settle into the oil plug cavity. When you say 1/2 inch you mean the drain plug was full of sludge. I don't see how you could remove the plug with a 1/2 inch of sludge resting on top? I wouldn't pull the pan just replace the oil with detergent oil and change it 200-500 miles and monitor the sludge.

[Neil Mylar LakewoodCA]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

If you do pull the pan, definitely start using detergent oil.
I doubt you will find any slug in the pan, but if you do, then you should check out the valve chamber also.

[Skibb]

Originally Posted by RonC

using non detergent oil would allow sludge to settle into the oil plug cavity. When you say 1/2 inch you mean the drain plug was full of sludge. I don't see how you could remove the plug with a 1/2 inch of sludge resting on top? I wouldn't pull the pan just replace the oil with detergent oil and change it 200-500 miles and monitor the sludge.

This is the advice I got in 1956 when I got my first Model A. It worked then and will work now.

[old31]

Originally Posted by RonC

using non detergent oil would allow sludge to settle into the oil plug cavity. When you say 1/2 inch you mean the drain plug was full of sludge. I don't see how you could remove the plug with a 1/2 inch of sludge resting on top? I wouldn't pull the pan just replace the oil with detergent oil and change it 200-500 miles and monitor the sludge.

Ya, the sludge just kind of piled up on the top of the plug.

[old31]

Follow up:

I drained out the non detergent oil. Filled it up using Mobil 1 15/50.

This is what the quantities looked like on the dipstick.

1 quart = 0 reading
1 and 1/2 quarts = 1/8 inch from bottom of stick
2 quarts = Bottom of "L"
2 and 1/2 quarts = 3/4 inch up stick
3 quarts = 7/8 of and inch, about half way up
3 and 1/2 quarts = 1 and 1/8 inch up
4 quarts = Botton of "F"
4 and 1/4 quarts = top of "F"

So, at my original 5 quarts I was 3/4 of a quart too much.

This winter I will pull the pan and see how it looks.

[C26Pinelake]

All is well that ends well! Wayne

[old31]

Follow up to the follow up.

Just came back from a 20 mile ride and the oil drips are a fraction of what I had with the 5 quarts non detergent.

[old31]

Follow up:

I pulled the pan because of the oil leaks. The pan was pretty clean with little sludge. I ordered the Snyders oil pan kit.

I will be redoing it because it is leaking as bad or maybe worse. Not sure what happened. I used dabs of Permatex 2 where the gaskets met in the corners. I did not use any sealant on the rail gaskets. ANY TIPS?

With so much written about the oil pump falling out, and finding bolts to hold them in. What am I missing (besides brain cells) I grew up in the 60's.

I left the pump attached and never removed it. So, why cant you use the same bolt that holds the pump in if you chose to remove the pump? Some have said to use Snyders A-6621-R pump retainer, or other types of hardware store bolts.

[Dollar Bill]

Where was the oil leaking from?

Oil pump likely stuck in place. Should you decide to remove it, just side load it with a wire loop until you get a few oil pan bolts started then pull the wire loop and continue with oil pan installation.

[Cornishman]

If you need to remove some oil from a sump there are some great vacuum pumps available that do the job cleanly and efficiently. Much better than trying to drain off a bit of oil or refilling the sump with most of the oil that you drained.

[Tom Wesenberg]

No bolt holds the pump in place. The spring at the bottom of the pump holds it until you lower the pan. Make sure the spring doesn't have any rust pits, or it might snap while in use.

The side of the block should have a 1/8" pipe plug with a screwdriver slot.

[700rpm]

Don't put a bolt into that 1/8" pipe plug hole! It's a pipe thread and a standard bolt will mess up the threads. When I have to hold the pump in position when installing the pan, I use a Phillips head screwdriver or a drift punch wedged throguh the hole and between the frame and the pump.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by old31

Follow up:

I drained out the non detergent oil. Filled it up using Mobil 1 15/50.

This is what the quantities looked like on the dipstick.

1 quart = 0 reading
1 and 1/2 quarts = 1/8 inch from bottom of stick
2 quarts = Bottom of "L"
2 and 1/2 quarts = 3/4 inch up stick
3 quarts = 7/8 of and inch, about half way up
3 and 1/2 quarts = 1 and 1/8 inch up
4 quarts = Botton of "F"
4 and 1/4 quarts = top of "F"

So, at my original 5 quarts I was 3/4 of a quart too much.

This winter I will pull the pan and see how it looks.

Unless I'm missing something, that sounds right.

When the oil pan is removed/installed then 5 qts are required. During a normal oil change 4- 4 1/4 qts are then needed. The dip tray and valve chamber holds 1/2-3/4 qt.

[old31]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

No bolt holds the pump in place. The spring at the bottom of the pump holds it until you lower the pan. Make sure the spring doesn't have any rust pits, or it might snap while in use.

The side of the block should have a 1/8" pipe plug with a screwdriver slot.

Isn't this bolt used to hold up the oil pump? I was able to remove the bolts on the bottom of the pump and removed and cleaned the pump screen, and the oil pump remained up.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by old31

Isn't this bolt used to hold up the oil pump? I was able to remove the bolts on the bottom of the pump and removed and cleaned the pump screen, and the oil pump remained up.

It depends on what the other end looks like and how long it is. It looks as though it is a pipe plug used to replace the original, but, needs to be removed and looked at to be sure. It could also have been made to hold up the pump when the pan was previously removed/installed and just not removed as it should have been. But, as has been said, the oil pump is not to be held up under normal usage by anything but the spring under the pump.

[katy]

I will be redoing it because it is leaking as bad or maybe worse. Not sure what happened. I used dabs of Permatex 2 where the gaskets met in the corners. I did not use any sealant on the rail gaskets. ANY TIPS?

Did you ensure that the gasket surface of the pan was FLAT before you re-installed it?

Where exactly was it leaking?

[old31]

The pan was extremely flat. I filed the high spots and the low spots were filled in with JB. Weld.

The leak looks like it is coming from the rear seal area.

What do you guys use to hold up the rear square seal up. I first used Perm2 and stuck it up, and it would fall down. The seal was just not tight enough for the cavity. And that is with a few dabs of Perm2 in the corners. I finally ended up using contact cement to hold it up, and then some Perm2.

[Mitch//pa]

http://www.sacramentocapitolas.org/s...et-Article.pdf

[Dollar Bill]

Just to clarify, oil is leaking from rear of the oil pan and not the hole with the cotter key on the flywheel housing ?

Some random thoughts that may help with your pan gasket leak.

• Follow the excellent instructions Mitch linked you to.
• Make sure the surface is clean and dry with no oil seeping out of the block.
• The little tabs at the rear of the pan gaskets must go under the square rear pan seal. Rail gaskets go on before the end cork.
• Not sure which one you used but I like the thick paper pan gasket for its rigidity - I've seen cork squeeze out with time.
• Dry fit gaskets before using adhesive.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I like to apply a thin coat of gasket cement to the side gaskets and push them into place. I then soak the cork end gaskets in hot water for a minute or two, then pat the water off and tuck them into the grooves. I've never had a cork gasket that didn't fit nice and tight into the grooves. I then put a dab of silicone into each of the 4 corners, and install the pan. I've had to sometimes trim the end of the cork because they were too long.

[RonC]

Originally Posted by old31

The pan was extremely flat. I filed the high spots and the low spots were filled in with JB. Weld.

The leak looks like it is coming from the rear seal area.

What do you guys use to hold up the rear square seal up. I first used Perm2 and stuck it up, and it would fall down. The seal was just not tight enough for the cavity. And that is with a few dabs of Perm2 in the corners. I finally ended up using contact cement to hold it up, and then some Perm2.

To straighten a pan you tap the high spots down using a hard surface or steel bucking plate. You might have ruined the pan if you filed it thin. 1500 miles you should be contacting the engine rebuilder.

[old31]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Dollar Bill

Just to clarify, oil is leaking from rear of the oil pan and not the hole with the cotter key on the flywheel housing ?

Some random thoughts that may help with your pan gasket leak.

• Follow the excellent instructions Mitch linked you to.
• Make sure the surface is clean and dry with no oil seeping out of the block.
• The little tabs at the rear of the pan gaskets must go under the square rear pan seal. Rail gaskets go on before the end cork.
• Not sure which one you used but I like the thick paper pan gasket for its rigidity - I've seen cork squeeze out with time.
• Dry fit gaskets before using adhesive.

I have both leaking, the cotter pin and dripping down the back of the pan.

I am using the thin paper rail gaskets. Directions say nothing is to be put on the gaskets otherwise they will be ruined.

Bolts were torqued to 6lbs per Snyders instructions.

[Mitch//pa]

I like cork personally a better seal for me anyway's

[tbirdtbird]

"Isn't this bolt used to hold up the oil pump?"

No. As Tom W mentioned there are NO bolts holding the oil pump in place. That is a pipe thread plug that allows access to the oil gallery for pressure testing, etc. Very different.

The temporary oil pump retainer bolt jig you are referring to that the suppliers have does use that same hole, but for an entirely different purpose.
It is the big spring on the bottom of the pump body that pushes the pump up into the block.

You NEVER want to leave the temporary retaining jig in place after the pan is back on. If you do, the neck of the pump can shear off at the level of the block. Have a whole shelf full of these.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by old31

I have both leaking, the cotter pin and dripping down the back of the pan.

I am using the thin paper rail gaskets. Directions say nothing is to be put on the gaskets otherwise they will be ruined.

Bolts were torqued to 6lbs per Snyders instructions.

I have seen them leaking from the camshaft bore in the back of the engine also. Some of It runs down the back of the block.

You need to put some sealer at junction where the pan rail gasket meets the throat gasket. If not you will probably have a leak. For me cork is the best, do not over tighten it.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

How much front /rear play is in the crankshaft?
What's the rear bearing clearance?
Are the rear bearing oil grooves properly done?
Is the drain tube in place properly, and not screwed in too far, slowing draining oil?
Are the rear shims pushed up against the crank?
These are some things that constitute rear main leaks.

[ian Simpson]

I have over-filled oil more than once on different vehicles. Use a turkey baster to remove the surplus. You may need to extend the nozzle.