Lets talk leakless water pumps!

[Jason in TX]

Interested in learning more about what is available in the leakless water pump market today. I know that some will say "There is nothing wrong with the packing nut and lead. Just use that."

I've used those pumps and loved them also, so this isn't a "Leakless is better" thread. I just want to talk about leakless pumps.

I've personally rebuilt a few pumps to be leakless using the new brass rear bushing with the modern neoprene seals and a new stainless steel shaft and had good success with no leaks.


However, you still have to grease the front bearing and rear bushing. I've got no problem with the maintenance hitting the pump with a little grease at the same time I'm greasing the chassis, but the thought of a maintenance free pump is talking to me.

So, I wanted to talk about what are all the options in the top of the line leakless pumps. I've heard some people talking about modern ceramic rear bushings. I've seen the sealed front bearings that are pressed on the shaft that require no grease and eliminate end play. These sound nice since I'm running A/C and the front end of the pump gets a little more tension on the belt.

So who is making the different types of pumps?

Whats the story on the bushing with ceramic seal?

Whats the story on the one piece bushing and sealed packing nut?

Anyone had the sealed front bushings or the brass rear bushing spin loose in the water pump housing?

Does the pressed on sealed front bushing really eliminate end play, removing the need for a shaft collar.

And what is the difference in the pumps that the various suppliers are supplying?

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SNYDER'S: $113 <-- (click link to view product)
The nose of the pump housing has been bored out to accept a ball bearing that is pressed onto the shaft to eliminate end play. It also has a sealed rear bushing assembly with a stock pack nut. The pack nut has teflon packing in it as a back up. Caomes with gasket and fan mounting kit. Rear bushing requires grease. The heaviest-duty pump available! One year warranty. U.S.A.

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BRATTONS: $121 <-- (click link to view product)
The pump housing has a sealed front bearing that never needs grease. Bearing is pressed into the housing and onto the shaft. This will eliminate shaft endplay. Rear bronze bushing has a lipped neoprene seal to keep water out. Shaft is stainless steel with impeller pinned to shaft. Shaft is locked to pump, therefore, no endplay. Includes both grease fittings, rear bearing is greased, pump is painted, ready for service. Guaranteed no leaks for 2 years. This new casting looks N.O.S. Leakless

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SNYDER'S: $125 <-- (click link to view product)
This kit will convert your pump housing to a modern type. Shaft has a sealed NEEDLE bearing insert that presses into front of pump, and sealed pack nut with needle bearings has built in rear bushing that presses into the rear of the pump. The casting where rear bushing assembly pressed into your old housing must be 1.015/1.016 and the nose of your pump must be 1.187 in order to use this kit. U.S.A. Housing is painted, grease fittings are included for appearance only. Gasket and fan mounting kit included. One year warranty.



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MAC'S: $131 <-- (click link to view product)
(currently out of stock. Who makes these, or are they all the same?)
Leakless style water pumps feature a sealed front ball bearing , stainless steel shaft and an improved ceramic seal that requires no greasing. Both grease fittings are for appearance only. This is truly the only solution to water pump problems. It looks like the original pump with a brass packing nut. A gasket & fan mounting hardware is included.
These bolt on & go deluxe pumps will work in a pressurized system. Maintenence-free & USA made.

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MIKE'S: $140 <-- (click link to view product)
The finest pump available. No Exchange Needed. Stainless steel shaft with leakless pack nut and pinned impeller. Totally sealed unit - never needs greasing. The front bearing is increased to a sealed 1 1/2"" needle bearing. All of the end play has been totally eliminated, pinned impeller and non greasable grease fittings are in place for show purpose only. There cannot be a better water pump on the market today. Included A8507 Gasket and A8510MB Fan Mounting Set.

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JIM RUPERT "ORIGINAL LEAKLESS" - $165 <-- (click link to view product)
Machined for a sealed bearing at the front of the pump (fan end).

Rear bushing is machined for a neoprene lip seal uniquely installed into the bushing (impeller end).

A stainless steel insert is machined and installed into the bushing on top of the seal so that the wear area of the bushing is still the same size.

A 17-4 ph stainless steel shaft is used and has been heat treated to increase the hardness.

The stainless steel shaft is machined for a snap ring (fan end) to eliminate endplay.

Each pump is pressure tested for leaks.

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JIM RUPERT "XD LEAKLESS" - $235 <-- (click link to view product)

Machined for a sealed bearing at the front of the pump (fan end).

A machined stainless steel housing retains both the sealed bearing and the neoprene lip seal at the rear of the pump (impeller end).

A 17-4 ph stainless steel shaft is used, and has been heat treated to increase the hardness.

The stainless steel shaft is machined for a snap ring (fan end) to eliminate end play.
Each pump is pressure tested for leaks.


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What are some other suppliers or options out there in stock looking A pumps?

I look forward to hearing everyone's input.

[dmaxweb]

Call Bert's in Denver http://www.modelastore.com/

[tmiller6]

Snyders have a new leakless kit that I now own but have not installed yet. It consists of a phony packing nut that is pressed into the pump housing from the front. On the coolant side, there is a brass bushing about 5/16" thick that provides a thrust face for the impeller washer.

The "nut" has a needle bearing and two seals to keep the grease in place.

The concept looks promising.

[Jack '29 Sport Coupe]

When I bought my car four years ago it had a "leakless pump" that had been installed by the previous owner. After eight years total it started leaking. I replaced it with another "leakless" just recently. Snyder's sells two kinds of leakless pumps, as you know. One of their pumps is totally greasless, the other one they sell
is considered leakless, but does have an option of having the ability of loosening the
packing nut and inserting the packing material. This one does also have one (1)
grease fittng on the backside. I bought the one that is totally greaseless and only
time will tell. If this one leaks, I will replace it with the cheapest model that has to
be greased every 500 miles and can be fitted with packing material. I have never
heard anything bad about the cheaper model. My personal opinion is that if you
keep an "A" long enough, and drive the pants off of it-----chances are it's going to
leak-----eventually. JMHO

Jack

[V4F]

the biggest thing i like is "no grease in radiator" ! ................... steve

[Jason in TX]

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Some really good discussion here! Keep 'em coming!!

TMiller6 - I didn't know how that Snyders bushing worked! Pretty interesting.

Jack - I totally agree that nothing will be perfect. Even the moderns have the pumps go out. The pump you replaced recently that is leakless, does it have the packing material as well? That is with the brass lipped style bushing with neoprene seals that allows for that, correct?

Originally Posted by steve norcal

the biggest thing i like is "no grease in radiator" ! ................... steve

Haha! Good point!

[Don/WI]

Approximately 3 years ago I rebuilt a number of water pumps for myself and other members of our club. I used stainless steel shafts with modern lip sealsin front and in the rear bushing. I have about 3,500 miles on my pump and this year my pump started to leak bad. I had no problems prior. I disassembled the pump and found that each of the seals had worn grooves into the shaft. I had another (non-stainless) steel shaft as well as seals, so I just rebuilt it, hoping that it will last longer than the stainless shaft. I am going to have a shaft made of medium carbon steel and surface harden the area of seal contact to prevent wear from the seal. Don/WI

[Frank Nemo]

Mike's also has a leakless, greaseless water pump. I've used one for years with excellent results.

http://www.mikes-afordable.com/

[Jason in TX]

Thanks for the heads up. Just added Mike's pump and link.

So what I'm hearing is that there are basically three types of "leakless" rear bushings and two types of sealed front bushing.

REAR:
Brass with Neoprene lip that you still grease
Fake packing nut bushing that you don't grease
rear bushing with ceramic (anyone know about these?)

FRONT:
Sealed ball bearing
Sealed needle bearing


What is better? Ball bearing or needle bearing?

[Tacoma Bob]

This is a great thread. There are so many variables to these pumps it confuses the heck out of me. I have been running a "store bought" leak less/grease less for eight years. Found one little drip last summer. I rebuilt a "leak less" as a back up only to realize I still need to grease it. My plans now are to order one from James Ruppert in California.

[Jack '29 Sport Coupe]

Elrod, mine is totally sealed, and the packing nut is not adjustable to allow for
any packing material to be added. You can buy a seal kit for about 3-4 bucks
if you have the adjustable type.

Jack

[gilitos]

"What is better? Ball bearing or needle bearing?"

I recently rebuilt my pump with the needle bearing; After just a few miles I checked and it's got an unacceptable amount of radial play (maybe 0.010") and so I've got to re-do it. I'm not impressed. Anybody else had a similar experience?

Giles in Cincinnati

[Wuudie]

Originally Posted by Elrod

MIKE'S: $140
The finest pump available. No Exchange Needed. Stainless steel shaft with leakless pack nut and pinned impeller. Totally sealed unit - never needs greasing. The front bearing is increased to a sealed 1 1/2"" needle bearing. All of the end play has been totally eliminated, pinned impeller and non greasable grease fittings are in place for show purpose only. There cannot be a better water pump on the market today. Included A8507 Gasket and A8510MB Fan Mounting Set.

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.

Have the other catelogs, but the Mike's is new to me - Who are they- where they located? do they have a website?

[Jason in TX]

Originally Posted by Wuudie

Have the other catelogs, but the Mike's is new to me - Who are they- where they located? do they have a website?

You can click on the "Mike's $140" large text and go to their website.

[MikeK]

About the ceramic rear seal- I do not think it will last unless you run 50/50 antifreeze or soluble oil in the water. Modern car pumps use ceramic and they depend on the pressurized antifreeze as a lube.

[tmiller6]

Ceramic seals can hold up well in water too. The well pump on my folk's place up north has a ceramic impeller seal and the only thing it ever sees is well water. The only reason I know it's there is because my late Dad cracked it some 20 years ago and he showed me the pieces as he re-assembled the pump.

Tom M.

[Dick So. Cal.]

I run 'leak-less' pumps on both my cars. The only thing I do is add a drop of oil every once in a while to the stainless shaft where it goes into the housing front and back. The idea is to provide some lubricant to the knife edge of the rear seal and some lubricant to the front bearing surface also.
I haven't had any failures or leaks. I guess it can't hurt to add a drop from the dipstick now and then.
I also don't like to pump grease in and have it go into the radiator. It is hard to tell how much you are pumping in.
Just a thought.
Dick
El Segundo CA

[Jason in TX]

I was doing some reading on ceramic seals (one example was this link about ceramic engineering and properties)and their need for antifreeze and I was not able to find anything saying that the seals "required" a liquid lubricant during operation, only during assembly. My thinking would be that if antifreeze was able to lubricate the surface between the shaft and the ceramic, then by nature, that would mean your pump was leaking "lubricant" or antifreeze past the seal and therefore wouldn't be leakless anymore.

I do like to run antifreeze in my cars though to hopefully cut down on rust forming in the block, so it may also help to prolong the life of the coolant side of the pump.

I found that they are widely used in pumps for water, more specifically in hot tubs, which do not use any lubricant in the water because that would be undesirable to the person swimming in the water.

Now, I think Dick's suggestion of putting a drop of oil on the shaft is a great idea. That can't hurt at all and I'll probably start using that practice myself!

[28 Special Coupe]

I went through the agony of deciding which water pump to buy a few weeks ago. I called Snyder's and talked to Don about the two leakless pumps that they sell. I was told that the pump they sell the most of is the "Leakless/Ball Bearing Water Pump", which has a sealed ball bearing in front and the leakless bushing in back that you still have to grease. The least selling unit is the "Leakless Water Pump", which is the maintenance free type. I was also told that the "Leakless/Ball Bearing Water Pump" has a heavier duty ball bearing than the other one. Snyder's recommended the "Leakless/Ball Bearing Water Pump" and I was told that they use that particular unit on all the cars they restore.

So basically, I intended to buy the maintenance free version, but opted for the other pump based on Mr. Snyder's recommendation. I put over 600 miles on that new pump last weekend during my club's fall tour. So far, I haven't seen a drop from it.

On a related note, I found that if I pull the pack nut forward on the shaft when I grease it, the excess grease will come out the front of the bushing instead of out the back and into the radiator.

[Jason in TX]

28 Special Coupe - I 've used the bushing that is in the pump you're using on a couple rebuilt pumps I've built up a few years ago and they still aren't leaking, so maybe I'm over thinking it. It's just that I've messed with swapping water pumps on the side of the road, in a field, in a hotel parking lot and in my garage and the amount of annoyance it takes to swap one out, I just want to get the best bang for the buck!

PS - If the grease is easily coming past the front seal out toward the packing nut after you remove the packing nut, don't you think there is possibility that the same amount of grease is also going out the back seal that has no packing nut there either, only coolant? My other thinking is that there is no place for that grease to go, so shouldn't it not require much more greasing beyond when it's assembled, and beyond that, maybe a tiny little squirt maybe once a year, or couple of years depending on the amount of driving?

[Farrell In Vancouver]

I have thought about a "Leakless" pump having just gone through some trials with my stocker. My only apprehension comes from the "Factory Sealed" bearing that never needs greasing. If you have ever taken one of these apart you'll probably be amazed at how little grease the factory put in them. That being said, no one has mentioned a failure on the front bearing either. My stocker is hold water now, thanks to some new packing string laced with a little wax and some graphite powder, so my money is still in my jeans. Pending discussion outcome, I'll hold off on buying a "Leakless" for now.
Thanks for the thread!

[Jason in TX]

Little more info from Wikipedia on bearings.


Needle roller bearings use very long and thin cylinders. Often the ends of the rollers taper to points, and these are used to keep the rollers captive, or they may be hemispherical and not captive but held by the shaft itself or a similar arrangement. Since the rollers are thin, the outside diameter of the bearing is only slightly larger than the hole in the middle. However, the small-diameter rollers must bend sharply where they contact the races, and thus the bearing fatigues relatively quickly.


Ball bearings use balls instead of cylinders. Ball bearings can support both radial (perpendicular to the shaft) and axial loads (parallel to the shaft). For lightly-loaded bearings, balls offer lower friction than rollers. Ball bearings can operate when the bearing races are misaligned. Precision balls are typically cheaper to produce than shapes such as rollers; combined with high-volume use, ball bearings are often much cheaper than other bearings of similar dimensions. Ball bearings may have high point loads, limiting total load capacity compared to other bearings of similar dimensions.



Common roller bearings use cylinders of slightly greater length than diameter. Roller bearings typically have higher load capacity than ball bearings, but a lower capacity and higher friction under loads perpendicular to the primary supported direction. If the inner and outer races are misaligned, the bearing capacity often drops quickly compared to either a ball bearing or a spherical roller bearing.
Roller bearings are the earliest known type of rolling-element-bearing, dating back to at least 40 BC.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

i have had 2 of Jim Ruperts XD pumps and one of his originals. I have also used the pumps by Snyders, Brattons and one I got in Portland made by a fellow in Washington. All except the XD need grease on the rear bearing. They work well on generator engines with clean water, but grease in the radiator bugs me, so I got the first XD from Jim in 1995. It lasted over 20k miles and 8 years in 3 different engines . It failed most likely because i forgot to put prestone rust inhibitor in the radiator one year and the rust ruined the ceramic seal. Jim asked for it back so he could do an analysis, and he found rust particles in the seal. Jim insists there be no rust as the particles will wreck the ceramic seal. The block and radiator must be well cleaned and have rust inhibitors in the water. The pump I have in the S/W has been in it for 5 years on a new radiator and boiled out block and has 26,000 miles with no problems. The XD has a machined pump body that has an extra large bearing to withstand the stress of tight alternator belts. I like the greaseless feature a lot. My radiator is clean as a whistle. I use Sierra anti freeze in winter, and distilled water with Prestone anti rust in summer. Both products lubricate the seal. I have not tried the recent greaseless pumps from the other guys. Most customers do not mind having to grease the pump if it saves them some money.
here's Jims website and a pic of the XD pump:
http://www.leaklessapumps.com/

[MikeK]

Let me throw another question into Elrod's great thread:

Which of the leakless pumps still use the contact point between the end of the shaft and the inside of the head for end-play control like the original? If it is not needed on some designs, why have the long stub beyond the impeller?

I bought a leakless with a locked shaft 3 years ago (don't remember from who) and it was a bit too long to fit into my new Brumfield head, so I just sawed off the useless end of the shaft. The missing shaft stub didn't disrupt the water flow and it was way easier to get the pump in with the radiator in place.

[roccaas]

Mike's.

4 years

No maintainence

No drips

Never even look at the thing anymore

Run 50/50 and distilled (+ Water Wetter in Summer), flush out twice yearly.

As long as the fan belt holds (broke Sunday after 2 years), needle never rises above SAFE level.

Money well spent.

[Vic in E-TN]

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I have used 2 or 3 of Rex Rehis water pumps without any problems for a long time. In the last few years I have purchased a few of James Rupert's pumps with good results. In the next month I will purchase an air conditioner from ?? in Texas. I anticipate that this will be a higher load on the water pump. I had not given this any consideration in the possible selection of a water pump. In anothe post someone mentioned the higher load capacity of roller bearings vs. needle or ball bearings. Does anyone know who uses what or do I need to make some phone calls?

Vic

[glenn in camino]

There is no such thing as leakless forever. Do what you do with most other Model A parts, carry a spare.

[Jason in TX]

GREAT POST Pat in Santa Cruz!! (Hey! That's where I was born!) Thanks for sharing your experience and some great info!

Originally Posted by glenn in camino

There is no such thing as leakless forever. Do what you do with most other Model A parts, carry a spare.

I hear ya! No matter how nice the parts, I've learned to travel with spares and that is why I was going to order two!

[Doug Linden]

I used the Snyder's "Leakless Water Pump" kit to rebuild my water pump. 3 years and 15K miles later it is still working perfectly. I was concerned about the no grease part, but so far so good.

[Jim/GA]

Anyone have a problem sucking in air at the water pump shaft seal at high RPM with any of these water pumps?

I suspect that the ceramic seal would be best in this situation.

The neoprene seals are chevron style pointing in, which holds pressure well but does not hold back air from entering...

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Jim/TX

Anyone have a problem sucking in air at the water pump shaft seal at high RPM with any of these water pumps?

I suspect that the ceramic seal would be best in this situation.

The neoprene seals are chevron style pointing in, which holds pressure well but does not hold back air from entering...

The rear bearings with seals I've seen advertised are double lip, so they seal from both directions.

[Mike Petrosino]

Sorry someone typed faster than me

[john in illinois]

Elrod,Here is the best I've found. No grease and the delux model is good for alt., a/c etc.

LINK http://www.leaklessapumps.com/

[28 Special Coupe]

Originally Posted by Elrod

PS - If the grease is easily coming past the front seal out toward the packing nut after you remove the packing nut, don't you think there is possibility that the same amount of grease is also going out the back seal that has no packing nut there either, only coolant? My other thinking is that there is no place for that grease to go, so shouldn't it not require much more greasing beyond when it's assembled, and beyond that, maybe a tiny little squirt maybe once a year, or couple of years depending on the amount of driving?

That's a good question. I greased the water pump before installing it to see where the excess grease would go. I only observed grease coming out the packing nut end and not the impeller end. I just assumed from that result that the bushing seals must be toward the impeller and that there aren't any between the grease fitting and the packing nut, thus allowing it to exit there. That might be an incorrect assumption since I didn't take the pump apart to find out for sure.

[Jim/GA]

The water pump write up from Mike's makes it a point to say that the impeller is pinned. I don't see that mentioned in any of the catalog text for the other water pumps. How important is that? If a new impeller is not pinned, what is the best way to add that? What pin do you use?

Do you still need to grind some of the tip of the 3 impeller blades off, or is that old folk lore?

[1928 Briggs 60A]

The $125 water pump from Snyder's is leakless and greaseless but, it looks NOS. They even offer the two different style packing buts. The shaft is a press fit so there is no need to worry about end play or the contact boss in the head. Best of all it's made in the USA by RMJ International (www.rmjinternational.net) near Cleveland, OH!!! Our club toured their facility last year and they are great people. I've had one on my car for 2 years and over 12,000 miles with no problems. I run water and Water Wetter.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Jim,
I have drilled and pinned the impellor. Most impellors are so tight I'm sure they would never come loose, but for the time it takes to pin one I don't want to be the guy that looses a water pump and radiator because it did come loose. Just drill a 1/8" hole through the impellor and shaft and install a 1/8" rod a bit longer than the hole and peen both ends.

[Barry B./ Ma.]

My friend has a totally leakless pump on his and it doesn't take any grease, front or back however after 1000 miles it is squeeling like a banshee and has to be replaced. I don't know which vendor made the pump and won't know where the problem bearing is until we get it apart. He plans to go back to the original style and use the adjustable packing nut (for what it's worth).

[Earle]

I have had a Snyders leakless pump on the roadster for about 4 years and 3000 miles. Zero leaks.

Ora Landis recommended and installed it back then and I don't recall all the particulars about it. I believe it has the lip seal at the rear & permanently-lubricated needle bearings at the front. I know it has the two fake grease fittings and stainless steel shaft. Absolutely maintenance-free.

Still has no detectable axial or radial looseness.

I have always run 50/50 antifreeze/water. It definitely does improve lubrication of the rear pump seal compared to water alone (aside from all the other benefits that antifreeze provides for the cooling system).

If the bearing quality, tolerances and installation are done right, the needle bearings are superior to ball bearings because they have a larger contact area with the shaft to distribute the radial loads - compared to the small point-contact of ball bearings. Needle bearings are intended for applications involving higher radial loading such as produced by the fan belt tension. But they are way more intollerant of any shaft misalignment.

You will always extend the life of a water pump - especially its front bearing - by running the fan belt at the very lowest tension necessary to keep the pump and generator spinning without slippage under typical driving conditions.

Also, any imballance in the fan will act to increase abuse of the front bearing and lead to early failure. But a needle bearing will take the "abuse" longer.

Since I am a "belt + suspenders" guy, I like the earlier tip on adding a drop of oil to the pump shaft at two places on the leakless pumps. Makes sense. Gonna start doing it.

Earle

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by Jason in TX

ttt

Did I miss something here? Why was this bumped back to the top with no reason? New pump/parts/information? Inquiring minds want to know!

OK! Found It..... New thread with link to this one HERE.
p.s. Nice Work Jason!

[Jason in TX]

Yeah. I added the Jim Rupert Original and XD pumps in the first post so that the information can all be together.

[callcoy]

Jason;
Thank you for post on leak less water pumps, I am sure it helped many people better understand their options.
Although a responder mentioned that a supplier has a kit available for creating/assembling a leak less pump, it should be pointed out that the individual components to do this are available from at least two of the major suppliers. On several occasions I have purchased parts to do this for approx. $70.00. To complete a pump, one must have access to a hyd. press and be able to read a mike and telescoping gauges or calipers. On the other hand, I have yet to find a pump housing that has bores that are oversize.
While I have noted that some of the posters have concerns about side loading the front bearing excessively with an alternator and maybe an AC compressor. The bearing shown in your Snyder’s photos, that’s combined, with the shaft, I believe is the same type and quality as the bearing assembly used in our modern cars. Only one bearing is used in our daily drivers and depending of the drive belt setup it could be included with not only the water pump but an alternator, an AC compressor. a power steering pump and maybe a smog pump. Granted in my case it is a serpentine belt, but I do have an old Chevy. pick up that has all of this and has to do it with two v-belts off the water pump. We have an advantage with our A’s, in that with a leak less set up we have the same bearing up front plus a bushing or bearing in the rear. This is a much stronger set up then any modern car and I have run for over 200,000 miles on a modern pump.
There was also some concern about using a needle bearing in our pumps, the concern is very valid if we were using the 80 year old type bearings found in the original pump. However, as stated above the bearing in use is not a needle design and has been used in millions of automobiles; if it was prone to failure the mfg’s would have stopped using it. I prefer to use a needle bearing in the rear instead of the brass bushing; the front bearing takes almost the entire side load. This set up is great for those who put a great deal of miles on their cars; it is durable and long lasting. However it is the wrong approach for those that will have their car fine point judged, those individuals should just use the modern bearing and shaft in the front and the brass bushing with a simulated packing gland.
Another poster noted that his shaft was undercut by the rear seal. This if it was mine would be reported to the supplier for replacement or refund. If the manufacturer is producing a product that is defective, the retailer supplier should demand a change in the product. If the supplier fails to do this, the visitors to the “Barn” will do their best to straighten him out.

[kenparker]

I just finished having "freon" put in my A/C on the S/W fordor. While cleaning up and putting up we discovered one of the waterpump housing to block bolts was loose. Tdhten that up and then discovered the Packing Nut Seal was loose and spinning on the shaft. It had come completely out of the Packing Nut. Stuffed it back in the front of the Packing Nut and drove home. The seal on the rear of the Rear Bushing is holding coolant for now, but the pump has to come out of there for repair or replacement.

This is a KP built water pump. Lip seal in the Packing Nut: Lip seal in the rear of the rear brass bushing: O Ring seal arond outside of Rear brass Bushing: and O ring between Packing Nut and Water Pump Housing. The front end has the Pressed on needel bearing. All of the parts came from either Berts or Snyder.

[Dick So. Cal.]

I have leakless waterpumps on both my cars. Because I think the rear seal is a knife-edged neoprene seal, it will over time wear out because of lack of lubricant. (I have seen shafts with grooves in them, too). So what I do and it seems to work is to put a drop of oil from the dipstick on the shaft where it enters the rear part of the pump. I do the same to front whether it needs it or not. I figure it can't hurt and all it can do is help. So far, so good.

Dick

[Franchise_24]

After driving home one day from a Club Meet and not realizing that my crappy pump was leaking and I blew the head gasket, I decided to get the leakless pump from Snyders that requires no grease. It's been almost a year now and it is running perfect and I have no complaints. One less thing to worry about while using my car.

[30Tudor]

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We tried the Modern Bearing and Sleeve kit from Brattons. It was very finicky and frustrating to install. I went through 2 kits trying to get one installed because we damaged the sleeve when we pushed it into the bearing cartridge. The fit was really tight (yes we did measure it up before the installation). We were also worried about the locktite used to put the sleeve on the shaft getting into the bearing when we assembled it. It ran well on the car but I definately would not recommend it. You get what you pay for.

The Modern Pump kit from Synders is the way to go. It was really easy to assemble and so far it has worked well on the car.

MODERN BEARING AND SLEEVEFor Year(s): 28-34

This set has a hardened sleeve which you press on your W.P. shaft (your shaft must be .625 diam.). The matching internal needle bearings roll on the hardened sleeve. The tolerance on this set is better than the original giving a smoother roll and less vibration. If using an alternator, this bearing will withstand the additional load better than the stock bearing. This set is the same size as the original bearing and sleeve. Instructions included.





Modern Pump Kit

This kit will convert your pump housing to a modern type. Shaft has a sealed bearing insert that presses into front of pump, and sealed pack nut has built in rear bushing that presses into the...

[Kevin in NJ]

You know I have been considering what I would want to put on my car.

The problem I am running into is all these leak less pumps is the number of people talking of failures. One of the first experiences with leak less was one that the seal went and the car had to be towed home because the original seal did not function. Seems to me any leak less units you buy you want to consider one you can seal normally too.

What makes it real hard for me to consider the leak less is my brothers coupe. The water pump is untouched since 1970 other than adding packing. Many years and many thousands of miles later all it needs is some grease and the occasional tightening of the seal.

Something to keep in mind. I believe on Vince Falter's website he talks about the shaft diameters. The original shafts were ground to a specific size. Modern replacements are not ground shafts and may be slightly smaller in diameter if I recall correctly.

While I am not saying you should go to the original type. I am going to look hard at the options for a modern seal that also works with the original seal. I am reading the comments and comparisons with interest. I am just pointing out the original is not really that bad.

[Clydes 31 P/U]

I had a leaky "leakless" waterpump on a day trip a few years ago, as I tend to carry more tools and parts than would seem normal I just backed off the packing nut took some of my pump packing out of the tool box greased it up, put it on tightened it up, added some water and was back on the road in twenty minutes. Who says old and new can't get along.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I agree with Kevin. I rebuilt my pump in 1995 and first installed it about 8 years ago. I rebuilt it completely stock (except for the locking collar) and it hasn't leaked a drop in the 8 years I've been running it. Just be sure to add grease around the LEAD packing rings as you assemble it, then adjust the brass nut a couple times during the first few days of running. I haven't adjusted the nut since then and have only greased the rear bushing twice in the past 8 years. I also don't run my generator belt too tight. I also run 50% antifreeze, which helps to lubricate the thrust washer next to the impellor.

The pumps I've rebuilt since then I've been using the rear brass bushing with the double lip seal on the rear of the bushing, as shown in #1 of this post. This will help to keep any grease from entering the coolant. Pack grease in the V of the double lip seal when you install it.

Like Kevin, I've heard too many reports of bad bearings and leaking pumps that are claimed to be "leakless". I'm not sold on them, but then what do I know.......I still like generators and stock headlights over alternators and halogen bulbs!

[Kurt in NJ]

I like the leakless pumps ,they are a good source of original parts ---the leftover parts from a conversion have been in my stock pump for the last 30 years ---the car they came from has had 3 leakless pump replacements in the same time.

[Rex_A_Lott]

I found this thread in a search, and yes I realize its 3 years old. How much of this is still valid? The reason I ask is I bought a replacement shaft with a front bearing already pressed on and I used it, but when I tried to buy another to build a spare up, I found out this particular option is no longer available.
I bought a leakless about 9 years ago, and it was great until the lip seals wore out and so that is why I am going down this road again. I'll try to post some pics of that assembly later.
I chose this thread because it seemed to be one of the most comprhensive ones I'd found. Thanks to all who contributed the first time around.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I still stand by what I said in post #49. Sure doesn't seem like it's been two years ago already.

[glenn in camino]

My most leakless water pump is an aftermarket pump that's filled with waterproof grease. No leaks in 10 years.

[columbiA]

I think people nowadays are so used to driving cars that are almost maintenence free that they try to get there A,s the same way.Part of the A experience is doing routine maint on the car.In the 50,s I put 75,000 miles on my A in 8 years & the water pump was still not leaking when I sold the car.When I rebuild a pump, I use the cheap mild steel shaft & original style bearing,but use the rear bushing with the added seal.Ive never had a pump failure in 60 years.I dont get an oily rad because The rear bushing only gets a tiny amount of grease every 1,000 miles.

[Rex_A_Lott]

I hope you guys dont feel I'm beating a dead horse here, just wanted to post what I'd found and the pics that I took last week.

A leakless rear bushing, showing the two lip seals, back-to-back, the roller bearing and the front lip seal. This one had a place for the bearing to take grease but the bushing wasnt drilled and the grease fitting was a dummy. Its a moot point anyway, the seals failed before the bearing did from lack of grease.


The shaft where the rear seal rode. After it was cleaned up you could see and feel the ridges worn by the lip seals. I tried to take a pic, but all you could see was the glare.

[JD 1931]

bought a leakless kit 7 yrs ago for under $50 ,works great.........

[Rex_A_Lott]

The stock all-bronze bushing on the left and what they sell as a replacement on the right.


Same thing, end view. Not solid bronze, just a couple of smaller bushings pressed in.

[Rex_A_Lott]

The part that I like the best. The shaft with the two roller bearings that located the shaft and prevents the end thrust from banging on the head.


The housing end view, showing the pressed in sleeve that holds the roller bearings.

[glenn in camino]

My only leakless water pump is an aftermarket one that does not have a packing nut. The space where the packing nut usually goes is a closed bottom cavity with a removable screwed on cover. That space gets filled with waterproof wheel bearing grease. The one I have on my deluxe delivery has been in use for about 8 years, and about 8-10 thousand miles, and hasn't leaked a drop.

[Marshall57]

I too am looking to get a leakless water pump, I was looking at the ones listed in this thread and liked the one from Mike's, hit the link to look at it and it doesn't seem to be listed anymore. They do have one for $120 that is a little different "needs grease". Does anyone know if the one shown above is still offered or has it been removed?

[Bob Bidonde]

Jason,

This is a great topic. In my opinion, the stock Model A water pump has very poor reliability. I drive my Model A on the highways in excess of 50 mph.... I will admit to some 70 mph spurts...and I know that sustained highway speed kills water pumps.

I have tried all of the combinations of bushings, bearings and seals, and none of them have had any longevity in my case. The Model B pump is no better, and in fact I think the Model A pump is superior to the Model B pump.

I have not tried it yet, but Jim Rupert's "XD" Leakless Pump looks like it should be the best of the bunch. Thanks for posting the cutaway picture of the XD.

[RobertB]

Anyone using the V8 water pump? I see the converter and pumps for sale in the Model A catalogs.

Any benefit to these pumps?

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

...
I have not tried it yet, but Jim Rupert's "XD" Leakless Pump looks like it should be the best of the bunch. Thanks for posting the cutaway picture of the XD.

I have tried it --- and it works like a charm. No problems whatever, 3 going on 4 years.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

Jason,

This is a great topic. In my opinion, the stock Model A water pump has very poor reliability. I drive my Model A on the highways in excess of 50 mph.... I will admit to some 70 mph spurts...and I know that sustained highway speed kills water pumps.

.

Whoa!!!!
I've never tried a so called "leakles pump" but have seen many fail on club members cars. Either the bearing goes out or the seals leak, or both.

The reason I never tried one is I rebuilt my original pump exactly as Ford made it, and it hasn't leaked a drop in over 10 years. I found you MUST smear grease around the LEAD packing rings when you install them. After that I adjusted the brass nut once after an hours run, then only a couple times in the next 10 years. I've also only greased the rear bushing 3 times in 10 years. I always run antifreeze. I also only use a generator and don't run my V belt very tight.

If someone runs only water and it gets rusty, I can see why water pumps start leaking.

[darrylkmc]

I have to agree with Tom W., I have never had a problem with original water pumps, as long as the shaft is smooth/new and you use original Ford Lead Packings well greased. I usually run Model B engines, but it makes no difference.

I have a core Model B water pump that I bought that has a tag on it that says " Model B Water Pump Leakless - Leaks"

Darryl in Fairbanks + 30 F

[modelAtony]

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Originally Posted by Marshall57

I too am looking to get a leakless water pump, I was looking at the ones listed in this thread and liked the one from Mike's, hit the link to look at it and it doesn't seem to be listed anymore. They do have one for $120 that is a little different "needs grease". Does anyone know if the one shown above is still offered or has it been removed?

Mike has not carried the leakless pump for nearly 2 years now. In 2001 all of his leakless pumps were totally no grease at all. Brattons, Snyder and others showed leakless but you had to ask them and most of them YOU HAD TO GREASE THE REAR. Have fun modelAtony Lafayette,la

[Pat Martone]

I have the James Rupert "Extreme Duty Leakless Water Pump" which needs no grease or maintenance in either the front or rear bearings, and it comes with a 5-year warranty. Mine has worked well so far for the 2 years that it has been on my car.

[john in illinois]

I have the Rupert XD pump on my touring 1930 Tudor. I have put about 15,000 miles on it and never had a problem. He did say with the pump that rust can damage the seals so he recommends anti freeze and soluble oil which I use.

John

[Purdy Swoft]

I build my own leakless water pumps for my use. I use the brass rear bushing with seals, the brass packing nut with seal from Bratton and the modern front bearing and sleeve. The sealed rear bushing helps keep grease out of the water jacket. The front bearing and sleeve better stabilizes the shaft and removes end play. It costs very little more to use these parts, most parts get replaced in a rebuild, anyway. I use water pump lubricant in the tap water that I use for coolant and have never had rust problems with water pump parts. Some of my water pumps are still leak free after 15 years. When I grease, I back the packing nut off the rear bushing and pump in grease untill it comes out around the shaft. I then put a little bit of grease in the packing nut with my finger before reinstalling the packing nut. Original pumps work good but require more maintainance, the front bearing setup is a weak point. If the front of the water pump shaft isn't completely stable, leaks will soon begin.

[Bobs29ModelA]

I installed a so-called "leakless" Model B-style pump on my 1929 Model A (which has a 1932 "C"-head on it), and it leaked from the packing nut, the rear greasing port, and even from the top mounting bolt! I then pumped some grease into it, and then added a tiny O-ring to the brass cover over the greasing port, and the leaks finally stopped. (The leak from the top mounting bolt decided to behave shortly after that, for some reason).

It worked fine until recently, when it blew-out big-time! It had only had about 700 miles on it when it failed on me recently, and regreasing the rear port did nothing to stop it.

I will never buy one of these again; instead, I sent it to James Rupert for his expertise in rebuilding it. Once I get it back, I'm hoping I'll have better luck with his rebuild work than I did when it first came to me new (and "leakless").

[Trailwanderer]

Right... So I'm new to Model A's and find this thread interesting... Mostly because I just bought a '29 (first ever) and the water pump is leaking... VERY slowly, maybe a drip every 20 seconds... Am I to gather this is a regular occurrence? Thanks!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Trailwanderer

Right... So I'm new to Model A's and find this thread interesting... Mostly because I just bought a '29 (first ever) and the water pump is leaking... VERY slowly, maybe a drip every 20 seconds... Am I to gather this is a regular occurrence? Thanks!

Not normal at all. I rebuilt my water pump over 10 years ago and built it exactly as original with lead packing rings. It never leaked a drop in all those years and I only checked the packing nut a couple times and greased it about once a year. Be sure to pack grease around the lead packing rings as you install them and also use a new shaft or make sure your shaft is in perfect condition.

This is how I always rebuild water pumps, but starting last year I also use the rear bushing with a seal in the rear. This will make sure the grease and antifreeze don't mix.

[mshmodela]

Originally Posted by 28 Special Coupe

I went through the agony of deciding which water pump to buy a few weeks ago. I called Snyder's and talked to Don about the two leakless pumps that they sell. I was told that the pump they sell the most of is the "Leakless/Ball Bearing Water Pump", which has a sealed ball bearing in front and the leakless bushing in back that you still have to grease. The least selling unit is the "Leakless Water Pump", which is the maintenance free type. I was also told that the "Leakless/Ball Bearing Water Pump" has a heavier duty ball bearing than the other one. Snyder's recommended the "Leakless/Ball Bearing Water Pump" and I was told that they use that particular unit on all the cars they restore.

So basically, I intended to buy the maintenance free version, but opted for the other pump based on Mr. Snyder's recommendation. I put over 600 miles on that new pump last weekend during my club's fall tour. So far, I haven't seen a drop from it.

On a related note, I found that if I pull the pack nut forward on the shaft when I grease it, the excess grease will come out the front of the bushing instead of out the back and into the radiator.

On a related note, I found that if I pull the pack nut forward on the shaft when I grease it, the excess grease will come out the front of the bushing instead of out the back and into the radiator.[/QUOTE]

Speaking of Snyder's I placed and order for a few items this week and there was some hick-up in the website. I called them and to my surprise I spoke to Don, who corrected the order asap. Very nice folks. I'm luck I'm about hour drive from them... I'm sure I'll pop over there at some point...

-Mike
Cleveland