Lets talk leakless water pumps!

[Jason in TX]

Interested in learning more about what is available in the leakless water pump market today. I know that some will say "There is nothing wrong with the packing nut and lead. Just use that."

I've used those pumps and loved them also, so this isn't a "Leakless is better" thread. I just want to talk about leakless pumps.

I've personally rebuilt a few pumps to be leakless using the new brass rear bushing with the modern neoprene seals and a new stainless steel shaft and had good success with no leaks.


However, you still have to grease the front bearing and rear bushing. I've got no problem with the maintenance hitting the pump with a little grease at the same time I'm greasing the chassis, but the thought of a maintenance free pump is talking to me.

So, I wanted to talk about what are all the options in the top of the line leakless pumps. I've heard some people talking about modern ceramic rear bushings. I've seen the sealed front bearings that are pressed on the shaft that require no grease and eliminate end play. These sound nice since I'm running A/C and the front end of the pump gets a little more tension on the belt.

So who is making the different types of pumps?

Whats the story on the bushing with ceramic seal?

Whats the story on the one piece bushing and sealed packing nut?

Anyone had the sealed front bushings or the brass rear bushing spin loose in the water pump housing?

Does the pressed on sealed front bushing really eliminate end play, removing the need for a shaft collar.

And what is the difference in the pumps that the various suppliers are supplying?

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SNYDER'S: $113 <-- (click link to view product)
The nose of the pump housing has been bored out to accept a ball bearing that is pressed onto the shaft to eliminate end play. It also has a sealed rear bushing assembly with a stock pack nut. The pack nut has teflon packing in it as a back up. Caomes with gasket and fan mounting kit. Rear bushing requires grease. The heaviest-duty pump available! One year warranty. U.S.A.

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BRATTONS: $121 <-- (click link to view product)
The pump housing has a sealed front bearing that never needs grease. Bearing is pressed into the housing and onto the shaft. This will eliminate shaft endplay. Rear bronze bushing has a lipped neoprene seal to keep water out. Shaft is stainless steel with impeller pinned to shaft. Shaft is locked to pump, therefore, no endplay. Includes both grease fittings, rear bearing is greased, pump is painted, ready for service. Guaranteed no leaks for 2 years. This new casting looks N.O.S. Leakless

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SNYDER'S: $125 <-- (click link to view product)
This kit will convert your pump housing to a modern type. Shaft has a sealed NEEDLE bearing insert that presses into front of pump, and sealed pack nut with needle bearings has built in rear bushing that presses into the rear of the pump. The casting where rear bushing assembly pressed into your old housing must be 1.015/1.016 and the nose of your pump must be 1.187 in order to use this kit. U.S.A. Housing is painted, grease fittings are included for appearance only. Gasket and fan mounting kit included. One year warranty.



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MAC'S: $131 <-- (click link to view product)
(currently out of stock. Who makes these, or are they all the same?)
Leakless style water pumps feature a sealed front ball bearing , stainless steel shaft and an improved ceramic seal that requires no greasing. Both grease fittings are for appearance only. This is truly the only solution to water pump problems. It looks like the original pump with a brass packing nut. A gasket & fan mounting hardware is included.
These bolt on & go deluxe pumps will work in a pressurized system. Maintenence-free & USA made.

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MIKE'S: $140 <-- (click link to view product)
The finest pump available. No Exchange Needed. Stainless steel shaft with leakless pack nut and pinned impeller. Totally sealed unit - never needs greasing. The front bearing is increased to a sealed 1 1/2"" needle bearing. All of the end play has been totally eliminated, pinned impeller and non greasable grease fittings are in place for show purpose only. There cannot be a better water pump on the market today. Included A8507 Gasket and A8510MB Fan Mounting Set.

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JIM RUPERT "ORIGINAL LEAKLESS" - $165 <-- (click link to view product)
Machined for a sealed bearing at the front of the pump (fan end).

Rear bushing is machined for a neoprene lip seal uniquely installed into the bushing (impeller end).

A stainless steel insert is machined and installed into the bushing on top of the seal so that the wear area of the bushing is still the same size.

A 17-4 ph stainless steel shaft is used and has been heat treated to increase the hardness.

The stainless steel shaft is machined for a snap ring (fan end) to eliminate endplay.

Each pump is pressure tested for leaks.

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JIM RUPERT "XD LEAKLESS" - $235 <-- (click link to view product)

Machined for a sealed bearing at the front of the pump (fan end).

A machined stainless steel housing retains both the sealed bearing and the neoprene lip seal at the rear of the pump (impeller end).

A 17-4 ph stainless steel shaft is used, and has been heat treated to increase the hardness.

The stainless steel shaft is machined for a snap ring (fan end) to eliminate end play.
Each pump is pressure tested for leaks.


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What are some other suppliers or options out there in stock looking A pumps?

I look forward to hearing everyone's input.

[dmaxweb]

Call Bert's in Denver http://www.modelastore.com/

[tmiller6]

Snyders have a new leakless kit that I now own but have not installed yet. It consists of a phony packing nut that is pressed into the pump housing from the front. On the coolant side, there is a brass bushing about 5/16" thick that provides a thrust face for the impeller washer.

The "nut" has a needle bearing and two seals to keep the grease in place.

The concept looks promising.

[Jack '29 Sport Coupe]

When I bought my car four years ago it had a "leakless pump" that had been installed by the previous owner. After eight years total it started leaking. I replaced it with another "leakless" just recently. Snyder's sells two kinds of leakless pumps, as you know. One of their pumps is totally greasless, the other one they sell
is considered leakless, but does have an option of having the ability of loosening the
packing nut and inserting the packing material. This one does also have one (1)
grease fittng on the backside. I bought the one that is totally greaseless and only
time will tell. If this one leaks, I will replace it with the cheapest model that has to
be greased every 500 miles and can be fitted with packing material. I have never
heard anything bad about the cheaper model. My personal opinion is that if you
keep an "A" long enough, and drive the pants off of it-----chances are it's going to
leak-----eventually. JMHO

Jack

[V4F]

the biggest thing i like is "no grease in radiator" ! ................... steve

[Jason in TX]

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Some really good discussion here! Keep 'em coming!!

TMiller6 - I didn't know how that Snyders bushing worked! Pretty interesting.

Jack - I totally agree that nothing will be perfect. Even the moderns have the pumps go out. The pump you replaced recently that is leakless, does it have the packing material as well? That is with the brass lipped style bushing with neoprene seals that allows for that, correct?

Originally Posted by steve norcal

the biggest thing i like is "no grease in radiator" ! ................... steve

Haha! Good point!

[Don/WI]

Approximately 3 years ago I rebuilt a number of water pumps for myself and other members of our club. I used stainless steel shafts with modern lip sealsin front and in the rear bushing. I have about 3,500 miles on my pump and this year my pump started to leak bad. I had no problems prior. I disassembled the pump and found that each of the seals had worn grooves into the shaft. I had another (non-stainless) steel shaft as well as seals, so I just rebuilt it, hoping that it will last longer than the stainless shaft. I am going to have a shaft made of medium carbon steel and surface harden the area of seal contact to prevent wear from the seal. Don/WI

[Frank Nemo]

Mike's also has a leakless, greaseless water pump. I've used one for years with excellent results.

http://www.mikes-afordable.com/

[Jason in TX]

Thanks for the heads up. Just added Mike's pump and link.

So what I'm hearing is that there are basically three types of "leakless" rear bushings and two types of sealed front bushing.

REAR:
Brass with Neoprene lip that you still grease
Fake packing nut bushing that you don't grease
rear bushing with ceramic (anyone know about these?)

FRONT:
Sealed ball bearing
Sealed needle bearing


What is better? Ball bearing or needle bearing?

[Tacoma Bob]

This is a great thread. There are so many variables to these pumps it confuses the heck out of me. I have been running a "store bought" leak less/grease less for eight years. Found one little drip last summer. I rebuilt a "leak less" as a back up only to realize I still need to grease it. My plans now are to order one from James Ruppert in California.

[Jack '29 Sport Coupe]

Elrod, mine is totally sealed, and the packing nut is not adjustable to allow for
any packing material to be added. You can buy a seal kit for about 3-4 bucks
if you have the adjustable type.

Jack

[gilitos]

"What is better? Ball bearing or needle bearing?"

I recently rebuilt my pump with the needle bearing; After just a few miles I checked and it's got an unacceptable amount of radial play (maybe 0.010") and so I've got to re-do it. I'm not impressed. Anybody else had a similar experience?

Giles in Cincinnati

[Wuudie]

Originally Posted by Elrod

MIKE'S: $140
The finest pump available. No Exchange Needed. Stainless steel shaft with leakless pack nut and pinned impeller. Totally sealed unit - never needs greasing. The front bearing is increased to a sealed 1 1/2"" needle bearing. All of the end play has been totally eliminated, pinned impeller and non greasable grease fittings are in place for show purpose only. There cannot be a better water pump on the market today. Included A8507 Gasket and A8510MB Fan Mounting Set.

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Have the other catelogs, but the Mike's is new to me - Who are they- where they located? do they have a website?

[Jason in TX]

Originally Posted by Wuudie

Have the other catelogs, but the Mike's is new to me - Who are they- where they located? do they have a website?

You can click on the "Mike's $140" large text and go to their website.

[MikeK]

About the ceramic rear seal- I do not think it will last unless you run 50/50 antifreeze or soluble oil in the water. Modern car pumps use ceramic and they depend on the pressurized antifreeze as a lube.

[tmiller6]

Ceramic seals can hold up well in water too. The well pump on my folk's place up north has a ceramic impeller seal and the only thing it ever sees is well water. The only reason I know it's there is because my late Dad cracked it some 20 years ago and he showed me the pieces as he re-assembled the pump.

Tom M.

[Dick So. Cal.]

I run 'leak-less' pumps on both my cars. The only thing I do is add a drop of oil every once in a while to the stainless shaft where it goes into the housing front and back. The idea is to provide some lubricant to the knife edge of the rear seal and some lubricant to the front bearing surface also.
I haven't had any failures or leaks. I guess it can't hurt to add a drop from the dipstick now and then.
I also don't like to pump grease in and have it go into the radiator. It is hard to tell how much you are pumping in.
Just a thought.
Dick
El Segundo CA

[Jason in TX]

I was doing some reading on ceramic seals (one example was this link about ceramic engineering and properties)and their need for antifreeze and I was not able to find anything saying that the seals "required" a liquid lubricant during operation, only during assembly. My thinking would be that if antifreeze was able to lubricate the surface between the shaft and the ceramic, then by nature, that would mean your pump was leaking "lubricant" or antifreeze past the seal and therefore wouldn't be leakless anymore.

I do like to run antifreeze in my cars though to hopefully cut down on rust forming in the block, so it may also help to prolong the life of the coolant side of the pump.

I found that they are widely used in pumps for water, more specifically in hot tubs, which do not use any lubricant in the water because that would be undesirable to the person swimming in the water.

Now, I think Dick's suggestion of putting a drop of oil on the shaft is a great idea. That can't hurt at all and I'll probably start using that practice myself!

[28 Special Coupe]

I went through the agony of deciding which water pump to buy a few weeks ago. I called Snyder's and talked to Don about the two leakless pumps that they sell. I was told that the pump they sell the most of is the "Leakless/Ball Bearing Water Pump", which has a sealed ball bearing in front and the leakless bushing in back that you still have to grease. The least selling unit is the "Leakless Water Pump", which is the maintenance free type. I was also told that the "Leakless/Ball Bearing Water Pump" has a heavier duty ball bearing than the other one. Snyder's recommended the "Leakless/Ball Bearing Water Pump" and I was told that they use that particular unit on all the cars they restore.

So basically, I intended to buy the maintenance free version, but opted for the other pump based on Mr. Snyder's recommendation. I put over 600 miles on that new pump last weekend during my club's fall tour. So far, I haven't seen a drop from it.

On a related note, I found that if I pull the pack nut forward on the shaft when I grease it, the excess grease will come out the front of the bushing instead of out the back and into the radiator.

[Jason in TX]

28 Special Coupe - I 've used the bushing that is in the pump you're using on a couple rebuilt pumps I've built up a few years ago and they still aren't leaking, so maybe I'm over thinking it. It's just that I've messed with swapping water pumps on the side of the road, in a field, in a hotel parking lot and in my garage and the amount of annoyance it takes to swap one out, I just want to get the best bang for the buck!

PS - If the grease is easily coming past the front seal out toward the packing nut after you remove the packing nut, don't you think there is possibility that the same amount of grease is also going out the back seal that has no packing nut there either, only coolant? My other thinking is that there is no place for that grease to go, so shouldn't it not require much more greasing beyond when it's assembled, and beyond that, maybe a tiny little squirt maybe once a year, or couple of years depending on the amount of driving?