Merger again considered, Credible opinions requested

[ctvpa]

This morning MAFCA posted:

MAFCA announces it's "15 in 15 Membership Program!" MAFCA has set a goal of 15,000 members in 2015. We are asking all MAFCA members to help achieve this goal. Your chapter has received special incentives to achieve the goal, contact your Chapter representative for more information!

I replied :
I would like an honest opinion. I know this is a hot topic, but it is relevant.

In today's world, all social type clubs are losing members. When I was young there was many choices, the garden club, camera club, Masonic or Knights, etc. Most all are dwindling or gone.

I am well aware of the circumstances that caused the separation that divided one national club into two national Model A clubs.
But I am going ask that controversial taboo question.

Why can't MAFCA & MARC merge into one.

Currently both clubs compete for members, maintain two headquarters, publish two magazines, organize two different sets of national meets (both attempting to attract members from the same limited, and reducing, number of Model A owners).

I have posted this an several Model A based sites, and the overwhelming response is that members support a merger to one club.

With this, the operating costs would drop dramatically. The cost of having two headquarters, two sets of employees, two publications, opposing national meets, and membership dues all would benefit.
With a merger I can only think of how this would positively benefit the dues paying members.

With increasing dues for both clubs, and so many of our membership on fixed incomes, more are forced to choose one over the other. Many are 'opting out'.

Now is the time to forgive and forget the history that divided our club. That is in the past. Let us place our direction on the future.

Please answer directly, what is the reason that prevents the two clubs from uniting into one larger, organized, efficient national club?
Thank you.

[spdway1]

I agree with the comment above. Merging or joining forces is the way the world is going to save money for EVERYONE involved. Every day you see in the news a businesses merging, yesterday was Travelocity and Expedia, it only makes $ense.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

In every club I have been in, at some point someone gets P.O.'d or otherwise has a political difference that makes them want to leave and form or join another club. That's why there will always be at least 2 clubs.

[southfork]

I agree with ctvpa completely. Logic should always prevail.

[Tom Wesenberg]

They will merge when Studebaker and Packard merge.

Oh, wait, they did merge and look what happened.

[Fred]

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When the Polar Bears move to Key West Florida, It might happen..

[ctvpa]

Until us, as members, bring this topic up, and demand either answers or action, of course it will never happen. But to sit back and say it 'just will not happen' without commenting on why, is one reason why it has not happened.
I have also requested an annual report from both clubs, to see for myself where the money is going to, and have been told that the information is 'Not Available'.
If we say we want to bring the hobby into the future, stop the duplicity, and increase efficiently, maybe withholding our dues may make a statement.

[Fred K-OR]

Competition is one of the few freedoms we still have in this country. Yes it does divide us but the best competitor will win out. So I feel a choice is still a freedom we should have.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

They will merge when Studebaker and Packard merge.

Oh, wait, they did merge and look what happened.

My Grandfather took on Studebaker in 1918 and I was born in the parts room. The 'merge' took place when I was a kid and he always likened it to two drunks trying each other cross the street.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

We beat this horse to death every time it surfaces!!



I disagree with most every part of your proposal & thoughts. The biggest reason why they do not need to merge is the same reason why we need two branches of Government in this country. The two opposing views keep everything in cheque. If there were only one club, there would be someone (many??) who did not agree with their motives or goals, and the next thing you know, there would be a 2nd club again.

First off, they teach us in economics that what you are proposing doesn't always prove to be successful. Matter of fact, most will tell you that history shows they fail. Since we are speaking about a car club, name car companies that merged where both marques succeeded. Tom mentioned Packard & Studebaker merging. This merge was to help them save costs and be stronger yet history proved that both succumbed to the merge. Even in recent years, each of the Big 3 auto makers have tried to merge with companies to give them a financial advantage, ...and in all cases, the merge proved to be a Fail.

Second, the two clubs are NOT necessarily competing against each other. They're actively soliciting for a new member(s) which are not members of either club. Some hobbyists see a valve in belonging to both, -some to just one, ...and the kicker, many here are not a member of either club!! THOSE are the ones they are seeking as members.

Now one point I will argue with you to the end does not necessarily apply just to joining a club. Personally, I get so tired of hearing people say they are on fixed incomes. Isn't that really just a fabricated excuse??!! I would venture a guess that better than 95% of this world's citizens are on a "fixed income". I know I am! There are things in this world I say I cannot do/own, ...HOWEVER when the truth is known, the reason that I cannot afford it is simply because it really is not a strong priority of mine. The same applies here, anyone that truly wants to be a club member can find a way to be a club member!! (Get a part-time job, sell an asset, cut back on eating out, etc.) The only reason people are 'opting out' is because membership is not a high enough priority for them.

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

We beat this horse to death every time it surfaces!!



I disagree with most every part of your proposal & thoughts. The biggest reason why they do not need to merge is the same reason why we need two branches of Government in this country. The two opposing views keep everything in cheque. If there were only one club, there would be someone (many??) who did not agree with their motives or goals, and the next thing you know, there would be a 2nd club again.

First off, they teach us in economics that what you are proposing doesn't always prove to be successful. Matter of fact, most will tell you that history shows they fail. Since we are speaking about a car club, name car companies that merged where both marques succeeded. Tom mentioned Packard & Studebaker merging. This merge was to help them save costs and be stronger yet history proved that both succumbed to the merge. Even in recent years, each of the Big 3 auto makers have tried to merge with companies to give them a financial advantage, ...and in all cases, the merge proved to be a Fail.

Second, the two clubs are NOT necessarily competing against each other. They're actively soliciting for a new member(s) which are not members of either club. Some hobbyists see a valve in belonging to both, -some to just one, ...and the kicker, many here are not a member of either club!! THOSE are the ones they are seeking as members.

Now one point I will argue with you to the end does not necessarily apply just to joining a club. Personally, I get so tired of hearing people say they are on fixed incomes. Isn't that really just a fabricated excuse??!! I would venture a guess that better than 95% of this world's citizens are on a "fixed income". I know I am! There are things in this world I say I cannot do/own, ...HOWEVER when the truth is known, the reason that I cannot afford it is simply because it really is not a strong priority of mine. The same applies here, anyone that truly wants to be a club member can find a way to be a club member!! (Get a part-time job, sell an asset, cut back on eating out, etc.) The only reason people are 'opting out' is because membership is not a high enough priority for them.

And to add to this...BOTH clubs advertise in each other's magizine...MARC in The Restorer (MAFCA) and MAFCA in Model A News (MARC)!

Pluck

[ctvpa]

Thank you, Very good points. I appreciate the honest input.
By fixed income, I am referring to retired members, and their income has not kept up with cost of living.
I still believe in my comments, and that the division looses more than it gains. However you have made excellent points.
This type of non-confrontational discussion is what I hoped for.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by ctvpa

Until us, as members, bring this topic up, and demand either answers or action, of course it will never happen. But to sit back and say it 'just will not happen' without commenting on why, is one reason why it has not happened.
I have also requested an annual report from both clubs, to see for myself where the money is going to, and have been told that the information is 'Not Available'.
If we say we want to bring the hobby into the future, stop the duplicity, and increase efficiently, maybe withholding our dues may make a statement.

The information you asked for, I am pretty sure is all printed in each Magazine once a year for all to see..

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by ctvpa

Until us, as members, bring this topic up, and demand either answers or action, of course it will never happen. But to sit back and say it 'just will not happen' without commenting on why, is one reason why it has not happened.
I have also requested an annual report from both clubs, to see for myself where the money is going to, and have been told that the information is 'Not Available'.
If we say we want to bring the hobby into the future, stop the duplicity, and increase efficiently, maybe withholding our dues may make a statement.

Do whatever you wish but I'll bet that most folks that ARE members of both clubs are like me and have no interest in changing that. Ironically, many of the folks speaking loudest in favor last time this topic was BEAT TO DEATH admittedly were not members of either club. And lastly, I sure don't need anyone else attempting to take away MY options as they currently stand.

[ericr]

I'd like to have a knowledgeable member of both clubs to cogently state what he feels the difference between the two clubs may be. I've read a lot of strongly-held opinions but it would help more if someone can comment specifically on the desirability of two clubs.

[ctvpa]

Originally Posted by Fred

The information you asked for, I am pretty sure is all printed in each Magazine once a year for all to see..

No, I want an annual financial report, like most companies offer. The information inside the magazine is just basic info.

[mshmodela]

ctvpa,

I completely agree! Like the AFL and CIO ( American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations) they too had no choice to become the AFL-CIO and they where a HELL of lot larger. All a matter of time...

[ctvpa]

Thank everyone for keeping this mostly civil. Just as an update, this is posted in several sites. Currently , from the posts , p.m.'s and emails, about 70% feel a merger or mutual affiliation would benefit them. 7 people said that they are dual membership, and when asked 5 said that are considering not renewing both, but will choose one.
Some offered changes that they would like to see. One suggested one magazine that featured both.
Rude obnoxious comments, so far is only 1.
Thank you everyone for their input.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by ctvpa

No, I want an annual financial report, like most companies offer. The information inside the magazine is just basic info.

And the "Need To Know", is ??

[Jim Mason]

I'm a member of both clubs. From the arguments that I see the people that want the merger just want everyone else to agree with their opinion. Personally I like the choice

[sphanna]

I look forward with great anticipation To both magazines. I like the idea of 2 clubs. I am more into touring news and events. So I enjoy more articles in Restorer than Model A News but both are valuable to me. If I was more interested fine point restoration, I would not be as satisfied with only Restorer. The 2 clubs are different and I like that for the sake that people have different interests. Also the clubs are widly separated geographically. Where would "Ground Zero" be for tours and "meets" be? I see no advantage in mergering. If there was no clear difference in focus, both groups interests would be diluted. There is ample room for both clubs, I think. I like choices.

[newshirt]

I don't belong to either club. After four years in the hobby, the clubs still seem frustratingly irrelevant to my hobby experience. But I'm probably missing something, so I keep looking for something to align with. I really want to join and contribute somehow.

As an outsider, I too was struck by the redundancy and wondered why the clubs didn't merge. But Tom and Brent and probably right. Independent thought promotes health and vitality. Merge... and they die of suffocation.

But I suspect one club will eventually swallow the other anyway. It will likely be the one that aligns itself with newer owners and modern technology. I don't see either club doing that yet. But one eventually will. And then I will probably join.

[BlueSunoco]

Kevin-Illinois did a poll on this here in Aug. 2010. That sampling said 'yes' by two to one. Only 153 voted.

ctvpa asked this about a year ago, went to 104 posts!

I have to say that at this point, I'd say leave them separate. Benefits in having 2 separate clubs. Only 'drawback' to belonging to both is I run out of room to store the magazines! They pile up fast but I still go back and re-read old issues

I do believe MAFCA will hit 15,000 members in '15 they seem to be growing faster than MARC, at least going in the right direction?? Model A News is a great magazine I don't want to see MARC shrink though.

[mhsprecher]

I belong to both. There may be duplication, but it is great having two magazines. As long as there are people to volunteer and keep the clubs operating, I don't see a problem. When I was a teenager and really could only afford to join one club, it was MAFCA. I have no idea why, but that is what I did. Now I can afford it and I am happy to belong to both. Some people like one club and not the other. I guess I am not astute enough to have a preference.

[WestCoast]

it will never happen, its a matter of ego's, neither heads of the boards want so lose the power or prestige of the position they hold,

[Steve Plucker]

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Originally Posted by mhsprecher

I belong to both. There may be duplication, but it is great having two magazines. As long as there are people to volunteer and keep the clubs operating, I don't see a problem. When I was a teenager and really could only afford to join one club, it was MAFCA. I have no idea why, but that is what I did. Now I can afford it and I am happy to belong to both. Some people like one club and not the other. I guess I am not astute enough to have a preference.

Yes, there is duplication alright...But only in the "advertisements" that I can see. Are there others? Other than that each magizine, The Restorer (MAFCA) and Model A News (MARC) has something diferent to offer in each issue.

I belong to both clubs, have since about 1977 and still like both magizines. One comes during the odd months (The Resotrer) and the other comes during the even months (Model A News)...well it did till Helen got under the weather but I am sure that someday soon they will get back on schedual.

Both magizines cater to all aspects of the hobby, and not just one part of it.

The way I like to do my articles is not only for the "purist at heart" and not only for the Judging Standards but for those who wish to know the evolution of a part (especially the newbies and neophytes in this hobby) and then it is up to him or her or whoever to choose which way to go from there when applying it to their Model A/AA Ford.

I know there are lots of you out there who have great experience and knowledge yourselves, of which four of you have posted on this thread already. Write an article or two and contrubuite your knowledge and expertice to the hobby...what are you afarid of?

Pluck

[ctvpa]

Originally Posted by Fred

And the "Need To Know", is ??

I feel we all have a rite to know how our dues are spent. Just like donating money to a cause, I want to know how that money is spent. What do people get paid, what expences are covered, etc. If an organization hides this information, then there is a reason to hide it. If they are spending our dues wisely, then there should be no reason to release an annual report to the membership.
After all, we are the club members.

[ctvpa]

Originally Posted by WestCoast

it will never happen, its a matter of ego's, neither heads of the boards want so lose the power or prestige of the position they hold,

I am concerned that this is the major reason. I also feel this is a concern why they will not release an annual report.
To the people who say that they belong to both, a merger would reduce your yearly dues by 50%
To those who say that they are sick and tired of this subject, I will reply, if the subject is brought up so often, then many people have the same concerns. That is why you hear about it so often.
I will keep people informed of the results.

[springerpete]

I belong to both, enjoy both publications and whatever events I can take part in. There already is a "meeting of the minds" in the museum and MAFII.

[Jim Mason]

So...the single head of the combined clubs would have LESS ego, power problems than now?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Fred

When the Polar Bears move to Key West Florida, It might happen..

I agree! Too many egos!

[Dave in MN]

I belong to both Clubs and like receiving two publications. I intend to remain a member of both. The money spent on two memberships is a choice I prioritize.
Good Day.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by ctvpa

I feel we all have a rite to know how our dues are spent. Just like donating money to a cause, I want to know how that money is spent. What do people get paid, what expences are covered, etc. If an organization hides this information, then there is a reason to hide it. If they are spending our dues wisely, then there should be no reason to release an annual report to the membership.
After all, we are the club members.

Well, I do get 12 Magazines a year, that breaks down to about $6.66 an issue out of the $40.00 dues for each club...That $6.66 is less than a six pack of beer, and we all know what happens to it.. At least I get to keep the magazines. I don't care what they do with the change left over as I have enjoyed both of them going on 50 years..

[sphanna]

Fred, You have hit it on the head. I was going to post almost exactly your point. I cannot understand why some are so concerned over such trivia. Some people are always looking to see how they are being cheated or victmized. Reminds me of a certain community organizer who thinks everybody is out to getcha. I sincerely appreciate those in both clubs that give so much of their time, talant,& expertise for so little thanks. No body in either club is in it for the money. This is a service to the hobby that few of us are commited enough to do ourselves. My thanks to MARC and MAFCA for your contributions to this hobby.

[Flathead]

I belong to both clubs, what would be gained by having them merge? Instead of having two choices you would have only one choice for a club to join, take it or leave it. We are fortunate to have two large established clubs serving our hobby.
OR
You could pretend they did merge...just join one, the results will be the same. Then if you get upset with that club you would still have an alternative, something you won't get if there really was a merger.

[Steve Plucker]

CTVPA,

Just what "other Model A Fourms" have you asked this question?

"I have posted this an several Model A based sites, and the overwhelming response is that members support a merger to one club".


Can not find your post on any other "Model A based sites".

Pluck

[fiddlybits]

When I started work on my A I joined both.
I like MARC. I demanded a refund from MAFCA.
there is a completely different attitude and hospitality to each club.
MARC has that friendly mid-western social approach and will directly answer questions.
MAFCA told me "that question has already been answered" and I "should buy this or that". In business I call this the SCA (Southern California Attitude).
so long as this difference exsists there will never be a merger. (And if it were to happen I doubt I would not be alone in not being a member of the resulting club.)

[Steve Wastler]

I belong to both, hope like heck they always stay separate! Both are healthy, strong, and been here a long time, I see no need to change what works!!

[Royce P]

If the clubs merge do I still get 12 magazines a year? If the answer is no then it's a hard sell.

[31 Model A]

This thread reminds me of the Service Organizations that existed at the beginning and exist today. It started as one and then went to two, how many do we have now? Six, seven, eight ???? and the reason why..........................Mike in Florida said the reason....too many EGOS!!!!!!!!!!! IMO.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Steve Plucker

CTVPA,

Just what "other Model A Fourms" have you asked this question?

"I have posted this an several Model A based sites, and the overwhelming response is that members support a merger to one club".


Can not find your post on any other "Model A based sites".

Pluck

Steve, I also looked and found Nothing !!.. Where are the #s in which the "OVERWHELMING RESPONSE" support such a merger ?? I think this is ALL a one persons push for it again....

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by Fred

Steve, I also looked and found Nothing !!.. Where are the #s in which the "OVERWHELMING RESPONSE" support such a merger ?? I think this is ALL a one persons push for it again....

Yes, it is one thing to say something...But Gosh Darn...back it up with figures and just where can we find these figures!?!?!

CTPVA...Help us out here please! Or can you?

Pluck

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Did y'all look on Facebook in the Model-A sites for these 'merge wishers'?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Did y'all look on Facebook in the Model-A sites for these 'merge wishers'?

For me, NO !! I will not go on that trash site !! Never have & never will..

[BlueSunoco]

Fred now I know there are TWO of us in this great land who think the same. I refuse to belong to that worthless drama crap too.

CTPVA posted this question some time back. Guess the winter days are getting long

Neat to get a nice magazine every month in the mail. When I only belonged to MAFCA had to wait two months in between. Choices are a good thing.

[Fred]

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Originally Posted by BlueSunoco

Fred now I know there are TWO of us in this great land who think the same. I refuse to belong to that worthless drama crap too.

CTPVA posted this question some time back. Guess the winter days are getting long

Neat to get a nice magazine every month in the mail. When I only belonged to MAFCA had to wait two months in between. Choices are a good thing.

I think they are having a lot of snow up in Mass. Cant get out, SO ??

[31 Model A]

Originally Posted by BlueSunoco

Fred now I know there are TWO of us in this great land who think the same.

.

Make it three....I don't Facebook, Tweet or even Text. My cell is on for emergencies only when I'm away from home, my daughters insist. I guess they think I'm getting old.

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW: Always good to air out opinions with civility.

I feel both of these great Model A organizations are exercising their God given rights in what was once the only "United" States in this World ........ quite an experiment for Free Enterprise, Religious Freedom & Capitalism that worked well in the past when every individual was busy working for what they had.

Anybody remember these days gone by ...... when all bodies & minds were occupied with work ..... very few gangs with idle minds resorting to stealing & murder to get more drugs; hence, crime & looting was almost non-existent.

I prefer to use most of my free time fighting & encouraging citizens to think before they vote -- these two (2) Model A Clubs will never have intentions to punish my grandchildren with more higher taxes to create more of our present U. S. idle welfare bum citizen leeches.

And ............. laws were not passed to force these (2) clubs to merge ........ as of yet.

Appears to be a matter of individual different priorities.

[cradlescyth]

To my way of thinking it's which mag you like.

If you want both join both.

Other than that you get little or nothing out of either one.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by cradlescyth

To my way of thinking it's which mag you like.

If you want both join both.

Other than that you get little or nothing out of either one.

You get the national meets, which are great, and the best way to see a lot of nice restored and original Model A's.

[H. L. Chauvin]

In my opinion, just like people on Model A Forums, members of these (2) organizations do what they do because they enjoy what they do & try to help others.

No doubt there are far better ways to get rich than trying to run a Model A Club .... like maybe collecting cow manure & selling it to Walmart in (5) pounds bags .... but that is not as much fun.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by cradlescyth

To my way of thinking it's which mag you like.

If you want both join both.

Other than that you get little or nothing out of either one.

That is true for those that stay home and never attend any functions. I enjoy going to national meets (both clubs) when I can. Besides the cars, I enjoy the people that share my interests. Over the years I've met in person several of the folks that frequent this forum and others and that has been great.

A local restaurant may only have one thing on the menu you really like but that can be enough to bring you back. If it has several things you really enjoy it becomes very worthwhile!

[mot]

I merged nearly 45 years ago
I belong to both clubs and dont see a problem
i enjoy both magazines,i attend both meets
its just like buying national Time magazine and newsweek
they both have news in them ,but its a different slant
how about buying a newspaper and watching the news on TV
if it aint broke why fix it?
tom

[Model A Man]

I dont belong to either club as there is no local model A club where I live. I think the closes one is 2 hours away. The Beaver in Portland and I live in Astoria

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by Model A Man

I dont belong to either club as there is no local model A club where I live. I think the closes one is 2 hours away.

So why not start one? I would bet that within a 60 mile radius of Astoria, I bet you could find a few who would start a club. Put an ad in the paper.

Can't hurt.

I think it takes something like 10-13 to start a club (MAFCA) as that was the way it was when I started the Walla Walla Sweet A's.

Pluck

[Rowdy]

Whoever believes this is ever going to happen soon is smoking something that is illeagle in most states.

I don't have a horse in this race as I currently do not belong to either club. I have belonged to both clubs in the past and the current 2 club system seems to work out well for now. However in the next 20 years I believe membership numbers will force the combining of the clubs. I hope I am wrong, but trends seem to suggest it. Rod

[portside]

It appears that most in favor of combining the two clubs do not belong to either. Am I wrong regarding this?

[Rowdy]

MARC revoked our club as there were not enough members in it that belonged to MARC. Our club in unifiliated and has more flathead Fords and muscle cars than A's at this point. One of the many challanges for a club in a sparsely populated aree. Rod

[swo4rd]

Off and on since 1962, I have been a member of MAFCA and in 1990, I joined both simply to keep up with events that might not be advertized in both magazines and newsletters. As a member of the Skyline Chapter, I am required to belong to both, which I do. I enjoy going to national meets principally to see how others enjoy their cars plus I enjoy the people that share my interests. I find it inspiring and enlightening to read the work of the people, both current and past, who study the design and construction of the Model A, and then meeting them at national events. It is real clear in my mind that both organizations have two major components which I will label: The Social Side and the Technical Academic Restoration Side. Within each club, there are extremes of each. Personally, I gravitate toward the intellectual and technical aspects of restoration, but I don't mind going to an ice cream social now and then.

I have been in a number of national professional organizations having to do with my vocation. I have led and studied the operation of these organizations and how they function...or in some cases how they dysfunction and how they need to be consolidated to eliminate wastefulness.

It occurs to me that there are several "scales of economy" that will accrue to the combined membership with one collective organization...conventions, membership meetings and magazine publications come to mind immediately. All the services offered to both could be consolidated into a single source entity, such as the fine point committee that exists for both clubs, and those services for individual groups that may be regional related could continue.

It also occurs to me that it can start by having each club alternate annual meetings, which is about to happen by default for the next couple of years at least. Sooooo, it might not be a bad idea for the leadership of each organization to form a study committee comprised of leaders from both organization to discuss the pros and cons...and keep it seated until something happens. I was also thinking that the MAFFI museum at the Gilmore might be a great HQ...with an addition to house the staff and records.

I also think that original membership numbers should be reused if one renews...as a matter of propriety...I think my original membership number was only three digits...

OK, enough musing for a Sunday afternoon, back to the paint shop to get the Silver Mine Black 180A out for Niagara....

[portside]

It is my understanding that you can belong to either or both National clubs with out belonging to a local club. The two different magazines are more than worth the dues even if you are not a active member. The techinical articles and the swap and for sale are great resources.

[Rowdy]

That is true. My reason for not currently belonging to either right now is more financial than personal. I was alittle irritated with MARC dropping our club, but understand the reasons. Rod

[mshmodela]

If the U.S.S.R can folded, anything is possible.

[31 Model A]

Originally Posted by mshmodela

If the U.S.S.R can folded, anything is possible.

yes and, a lot of Confederate money is passed down to generation to generation with a note, 'y'all are gonna need this someday'. Ya got to love optimist!!!!

[Charles Coe]

In a response to Model A Man, Pluck suggested starting a local club. That's a great idea. It only takes 5 members to start a local club affiliated with either MAFCA or MARC.

[SteveB31]

I belong to both clubs, and have for 30 years. I see the differences in each club, and for the little cash it takes to belong, it is a bargain for the magazines, and friends I have met at various meets. I see no reason to join the two clubs into one.

The original post stated that we have a dwindling number of Model A owners. Unless someone has scrapped their Model A, with Model A Fords being restored, discovered in barns, and being repaired all the time, we actually have MORE Model A owners every year. Just less that belong to clubs.

It has been my observation from being in the Model A Ford business for more then 30 years, that the Model A Owners span all age groups, income groups, and even racial groups. But, most national (an sometimes local) club members seem to be the older Model A Owners. I think this is because many of the younger owner enjoy the cars, but not the social aspect of the clubs.

Every Model A has an owner- they just don't all belong to clubs.

Also, one more thought. These polls mentioned here poll 100-200 people on Fordbarn. Their are thousands of Model A owners in the clubs, and hundreds of thousand of Model A owners not in ANY club. I think ANY poll of less then 1/10 of 1% of the Model A owners cannot be very accurate.

[raprice22]

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For me, there's another reason to merge the 2 Model A clubs. I belong to 4 antique auto clubs plus local chapters, AACA, plus2 local chapters, Studebaker Drivers Club, plus a local chapter, and MAFCA plus a local chapter. So you can see that I pay a lot of dues to those clubs. I wouldn't even consider joining the other Model A club. One is enough for me.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by raprice22

For me, there's another reason to merge the 2 Model A clubs. I belong to 4 antique auto clubs plus local chapters, AACA, plus2 local chapters, Studebaker Drivers Club, plus a local chapter, and MAFCA plus a local chapter. So you can see that I pay a lot of dues to those clubs. I wouldn't even consider joining the other Model A club. One is enough for me.

It would not benefit you and may do just the opposite. Currently you have the option to continue with one club, 6 magazines annually, and pay your $40, OR spend another $40 and receive 12 magazines annually. Obviously you have chosen the former.

Now if this silly idea actually became a reality, they would either continue as either club does now and produce 6 magazines annually (which is no net change for you) OR set the dues at $75-$80 annually so they could produce 12 magazines. Now your only choices are to cough up the cash (which you chosen against thus far) OR drop out completely. Does that sound appealing?

[Roger V]

I belong to both clubs and like them each for different reasons. I really see no need for merging. I think a few people feel compelled to pursue this for supposedly less cost. Doesn't make much sense that you will pay $40 or so and expect to get the total benefits of currently both such as twelve magazines. Nor will a single merged club end up with the combined total of both current members as many belong to both. I keep hearing the "fixed income" syndrome. If you're living in a refrigerator box under a bridge, that may be critical. If you can afford nearly any level of Model A, the combined MARC & MAFCA dues are a tiny expense compared to buying a Model A, parts, insurance, books, gasoline, tools, etc. Even if there is no region or chapter close by and you don't want to start one, the magazines, National Meets, etc. are worth the dues to me.

[Fred]

Can we bury this for the last time !!.. The above has shown most are for the two clubs.

[Fred K-OR]

Everybody must be bored by the winter weather. Please find something else to do. Like Fred above says, bury it!

[newshirt]

Originally Posted by Fred

Can we bury this for the last time !!.. The above has shown most are for the two clubs.

Originally Posted by Fred K-OR

Everybody must be bored by the winter weather. Please find something else to do. Like Fred above says, bury it!

Why so hasty? There is a wide range of readers here. Some newbie's like me need discourse like this to understand the issues.

[Charles Coe]

It has been my understanding that MAFCA came from what was originally a Southern California region of MARC. So evidently there were issues at the time that compelled the California group to start another national club. I don't know what those issues were or if they still exist. I'm a member of both MARC and MAFCA and happy to have both clubs.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I think we need to merge these merger threads.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by newshirt

Why so hasty? There is a wide range of readers here. Some newbie's like me need discourse like this to understand the issues.

Ray, often times things are not what they seem or appear to be. Where I think this topic gets skewed immensely is folks mention "egos" however it usually goes a tad further than that. We all look for ways that we can contribute back to the hobby. Unfortunately, not everyone shares the same opinions on something HOWEVER it is generally majority vote rules when it comes to clubs.

In the instance of these two clubs, you have volunteers that guide each respective club based on the ideas/vision they share as to what the future of that club should be. It is easy to make judgmental comments about 'egos' or speculate about decisions when those are coming from someone who really does not have first-hand knowledge of why decisions are made, ...but when facts are known, and long-range goals are understood, it is easier to understand exactly why there are now two clubs.

I think Craig was within bounds to bring this topic up again because it did stay civil, ...and I think we know where the majority stand on the subject. Ray, as far as newbies are concerned, I agree you should know what is going on. There are several Board of Directors for both clubs who 'lurk' on this site. My suggestion is contact each one of them personally when you have questions to ask them first-hand what & why on each topic that concerns you. Then make your decisions based on your own research, --and not from a forum topic such as this which might be guessing as to the club's motives.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by forever4

i suggest that ryan start requiring $40 per year for access to fordbarn, in order to filter out all the chaff that obviously wants to complain and get something for nothing in their hobby. Then the serious people will be able to enjoy this site and their magazines more. Who really cares how many club dues you pay for? It is your own decision.

Related note: Notice that just like clockwork someone always has to start a post complaining or polling everyone else because they think they did not get their magazine on time or may be a little late? Some people are so impatient and self centered i don't know how they can live with themselves.

how sweet it is !!!!

[ctvpa]

Well, it is an interesting ride, and unique to see some of the posts. Some are very defensive, others bring new input from both sides, that made me think.
As I have said, this same question has been posted before, and within the last 3 months, has been posted by me on several sites. Some accuse me of out and out lying, because they searched, and not seen it. But that is my intent. I do statistical studies for a living. I would never post the exact same worded question, or use the same name in my post. That would contaminate the data pool.
Most unique are the private messages. They go from threating, to thrilled that the topic is brought up. I am still collecting data. Sorry to say Brent, not all have been civil. But it has been interesting.
Some thoughts of contacts:
I don't belong to either, it is just a way for a limited few to make more money.
I like belonging to both, I get two views, and more information.
I would never write on this thread with my name, I would get the boot from my club.
I think that the two clubs could remain independent, but have mutual meets, welcoming both clubs. That way we would not have to be torn between what meet to go to. They could work together more for better planning.
We are paying good money, and remaking the wheel. What is the sense of paying for two headquarters, two board of directors, two groups of staff, two separate magazine editors and two publishers. It is just ego that they are separate.

I will collect more data, and post it.
My comments are:
If you are upset that this question comes up so often, that proves that while it may be settled for you, but it is an issue for many others. Allow others to say their comments.
If you are insulting, I just remove your note. If you threaten, then I have no respect at all for you. If you do this, you should receive some counseling. For those with honest open ideas, I thank you.
Several senior members have said that the dues increase is a hardship, and they are dropping some membership. With age, they cannot be as active, so they are dropping.(Perhaps we could have a fund, and if a member has been a member for 'X' number of years, we could allow them a less expensive membership, as a reward for their past dedication, they could get the magazine, and clubs should arrange for other members to pick them up for the meets if they have physical limitations .)
Some people say that there are many more Model A's now than 20 years ago. He may be correct if he counts Model A's with big block engines and chopped bodies. But we are losing more and more Model A's every day.
Many comments on "getting along". As I read many comments, I agree.
Several comments who believe MAFCA only represents California.

I will continue to collect data. Most people believe that the duplication is an added expense, and there is room for improvement.
Many members that contacted me have had their car for 50-60 years, with wonderful stories. (I have had mine since 1975, I was 16, daily driver 8 years) I think my next project will be collecting those stories.

For those that have added constructive discussion, comments, and offered ideas; I thank you for sharing your thoughts. Please continue.

For those that want offer rude comments, without any mention of how to improve or correct the issues, please keep it to yourself; and get some social skills.

But clearly, much to the objection of some; people do want changes.
Thank you for your time and consideration in this important subject.

[ctvpa]

Originally Posted by Fred

Can we bury this for the last time !!.. The above has shown most are for the two clubs.

I wonder why you demand to 'just bury this'?
Could it be that you don't like it?
Look at the amount of people who have viewed and commented on it. Whether you want to be involved, as you can see, many others than you, feel it is important.
The members should have a say how the future of their club is managed.
Please, if you have a constructive idea, solution, or thought; present it here in the public forum.
If you, personally don't like it, pass it by.

[sphanna]

Maybe you are advised to just bury it is because they are mature enough to recognize when someone has an agenda and just will not give up. It is really time for you to just zip it.

[ctvpa]

=
sphanna;1022795]Maybe you are advised to just bury it is because they are mature enough to recognize when someone has an agenda and just will not give up. It is really time for you to just zip it.[/QUOTE]

These are the kind of rude and arrogant comments that pop up.
If this is not an important topic to so many members, then why is there 2,570 views and 82 comments.

So I will throw it back to you . What secret agenda do I have, and prove it to us. If you can't, then retract your completely non-constructive statement. My only concern is the future of the hobby I enjoy.

If you look at all my posts I have been polite, courteous to other peoples thoughts, respected their opinion. And for many of us, this has been a very civil and constructive conversation. I have learned and changed many of my thoughts when a respectful member explains their view. In retrospect I think others have read the texts, and maybe it has caused them to think. If you read, when people place an different opinion, and explained why, I have answered "Good Point". I will stand by my conviction, that this post has been informative, and (with obvious exception of a few insulting posts by rude people) This post has been a learning experience for all of us. It has changed my views an many issues, when explained.

Yet you reply with some sort of demand that you have the auspicious power to control what I say. I defended my rite to free speech during my service in the USMC.

If you don't like this subject, don't click on it. You clicked on it yourself. But you have absolutely no rite to restrict my comments.

I suggest that in the future, you be more polite. Comments like this simply show your ignorance. Make a reasonable comment, and we will listen.

I ask you now, prove to all of this forum that I have some agenda, or retract your slanderous statement. I have been polite, I request you be the same.

Now, if anyone has any respectable input, please let's hear it.

[ctvpa]

Originally Posted by newshirt

Why so hasty? There is a wide range of readers here. Some newbie's like me need discourse like this to understand the issues.

Great Point, Thank you.

[DougVieyra]

For those old enough to remember, at one time there WAS only ONE Model A Club. The Model A Restorer's Club. It was started back east and it's composition largely reflected the interests of it's Eastern members.

However, after a few years, the largest of MARC's West Coast chapters began to feel that the more relaxed view point of California was not being reflected in the national club. So several of the MARC chapters in the Southern California region decided to group together and form their own Model A Club, to better reflect the feelings of the West Coast members.

Hence, the formation of a second national club to support the restoring and driving of the Ford Model A - The Model A Ford Club of America - MAFCA.

I suspect that after more than a half a century, there is still a strong feeling by many Model A'ers west of the Mississippi, that there is a need of a more 'relaxed' attitude about the driving and restoring of the Ford Model A.

Hence - I see nothing on the horizon that indicates to me that the majority of westerners would want to see MAFCA merge back into MARC.

- Doug Vieyra - MAFCA member since 1963
- MARC member since 1963 - dropped in 1998


P.S. - For those who are not members of MAFCA, the latest edition of their magazine, THE RESTORER, had an excellent article on the "Basics of Front End Wheel Alignment". This kind of article is what makes the membership in one of the national clubs worth joining. Over the years, I have found that I prefer the MAFCA over the MARC publications, but both are well worth the read. Some like Porter House Steak - others prefer Rib Eye Steak. But they are both Steak - you don't have to have both.

[ericr]

one thing that I have not seen discussed, which I think is relevant though not conclusive, would be the respective numbers of members within each national club and their geographical locations. I assume that MARC is more dominant in the eastern half of the country but I have no evidence of that.

[BlueSunoco]

Originally Posted by Fred K-OR

Everybody must be bored by the winter weather. Please find something else to do. Like Fred above says, bury it!

Or, instead of burying is cremation available?

[hangarb7]

I am a relative newby, owned my car and been a member of MARC since 2008.

Our local MARC affiliate club (Three Rivers Model A, Pittsburgh) requires that I be a member of MARC, so that is why I joined. Nice magazine.

I see no reason to join another organization and also believe if there is a competition for members, that is a good thing.

Regards,

JackD

[Fred]

Originally Posted by ctvpa

I wonder why you demand to 'just bury this'?
Could it be that you don't like it?
Look at the amount of people who have viewed and commented on it. Whether you want to be involved, as you can see, many others than you, feel it is important.
The members should have a say how the future of their club is managed.
Please, if you have a constructive idea, solution, or thought; present it here in the public forum.
If you, personally don't like it, pass it by.

Show me and everyone here where I "DEMANDED" anything ??... The Majority of people that have commented here want the clubs and magazines as is.. Show us "ALL" the "OTHERS" that feel this subject is Important ??.. If you don't like how either one or both clubs are run & need all this other information you talk of, here is my ? to you. Why are you NOT on one of the clubs BOD etc.. They are always looking for people to do volunteer work..

[portside]

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I'm like Fred and like it just fine the way it is!

[Fred]

Originally Posted by ctvpa

This morning MAFCA posted:

MAFCA announces it's "15 in 15 Membership Program!" MAFCA has set a goal of 15,000 members in 2015. We are asking all MAFCA members to help achieve this goal. Your chapter has received special incentives to achieve the goal, contact your Chapter representative for more information!

I replied :
I would like an honest opinion. I know this is a hot topic, but it is relevant.

In today's world, all social type clubs are losing members. When I was young there was many choices, the garden club, camera club, Masonic or Knights, etc. Most all are dwindling or gone.

I am well aware of the circumstances that caused the separation that divided one national club into two national Model A clubs.
But I am going ask that controversial taboo question.

Why can't MAFCA & MARC merge into one.

Currently both clubs compete for members, maintain two headquarters, publish two magazines, organize two different sets of national meets (both attempting to attract members from the same limited, and reducing, number of Model A owners).

I have posted this an several Model A based sites, and the overwhelming response is that members support a merger to one club.

With this, the operating costs would drop dramatically. The cost of having two headquarters, two sets of employees, two publications, opposing national meets, and membership dues all would benefit.
With a merger I can only think of how this would positively benefit the dues paying members.

With increasing dues for both clubs, and so many of our membership on fixed incomes, more are forced to choose one over the other. Many are 'opting out'.

Now is the time to forgive and forget the history that divided our club. That is in the past. Let us place our direction on the future.

Please answer directly, what is the reason that prevents the two clubs from uniting into one larger, organized, efficient national club?
Thank you.

Looks like this is not "RELEVANT" to most here, and the "OVERWHELMING RESPONSE" is not what you claim..

[ericr]

at least here in Ohio, many non-profit organizations, such as cemeteries, and animal welfare organizations, to name just two, maintain their perpetual existence through a scenario where the original trustees elect successor trustees elect successor trustees, etc. very few true "outsiders" stand a chance of easily waltzing into control of such organizations without putting in a lot of time advancing up the ranks.
As such, there is not much of an ongoing mindset to think in terms of abdicating one's position therein through mergers, consolidations, etc.

I'm not saying that is the structure of the "A" clubs, I really do not know. Conceivably it could be.

[jimalabam]

First I agree with both Pluck and Marco. Most of us are members of both Nationals and do not favor merging. Secondly, Like Ford and GM, this will never happen. Jim Langley...

[jimalabam]

I forgot to say - Lets bury this dead horse since it has sadly been beaten to death...

[DGNY]

While I don't own a Model A any more, nor belong to either MARC or MAFCA, I do greatly enjoy this forum and do belong to four other car clubs. The question raised is a logical one, with some superficial appeal about expenses, duplication, simplicity.... But underlying it, of course, are other more compelling issues.

One is that we are used to having choices and lots of them. Once they appear, they are hard to give up. And why should they be surrendered? It is part of freedom to have choices. If I wish, I can have several blue shirts, though I might need only one. Car clubs are not like multiple choice test questions where there is just one 'right' answer, more like ice cream, with many flavors, available singly or in multiples. Join one, all, or none.

Long live freedom of choice - including multiple choices.

Regards,

Dyson

[Skibb]

You guys pulled me in on this one. Its actually an interesting topic. That said, free speech is precious; we all should encourage the freedom of speech.

I'm a newbie again. After being a MARC member in the late 50's, life spun me away from this superb hobby. Then I died in the ER four years ago but was given second chance. When I finally do step across them Pearly Gates, St Peter will ask what did you do with your second chance Skibb. I'll say, I put a smile on face by driving Model A's. If St Pete is a crossed eyed modernist you know where I'll go. The odds are he'll put me in an A.

So, I belong to the two clubs. Enjoy them both. But if they were to be combined, we' have a split again. The division creates strength for our hobby.

A club we have here is a Ford Barner Club. It's a pretty good one too.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by DGNY

While I don't own a Model A any more, nor belong to either MARC or MAFCA, I do greatly enjoy this forum and do belong to four other car clubs. The question raised is a logical one, with some superficial appeal about expenses, duplication, simplicity.... But underlying it, of course, are other more compelling issues.

One is that we are used to having choices and lots of them. Once they appear, they are hard to give up. And why should they be surrendered? It is part of freedom to have choices. If I wish, I can have several blue shirts, though I might need only one. Car clubs are not like multiple choice test questions where there is just one 'right' answer, more like ice cream, with many flavors, available singly or in multiples. Join one, all, or none.

Long live freedom of choice - including multiple choices.

Regards,

Dyson

I agree with Dyson . We should all have freedom of choice and nobody should try to mess with that freedom !!!!!!!

[H. L. Chauvin]

Appears this particular horse will live forever in the U. S. A. among those who prefer freedom of choices.

But how about this (1) one choice scenario for entertaining a more serious discussion?

Suppose underwear companies would discontinue making all sizes of boxer shorts & only made briefs in Size 32 ...... thus having only one (1) choice.

Might cause upward pressure on your spinal chord & cause headaches.

[dlshady]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Appears this particular horse will live forever in the U. S. A. among those who prefer freedom of choices.

But how about this (1) one choice scenario for entertaining a more serious discussion?

Suppose underwear companies would discontinue making all sizes of boxer shorts & only made briefs in Size 32 ...... thus having only one (1) choice.

Might cause upward pressure on your spinal chord & cause headaches.

I'd pretty much be in trouble...

[brum1]

Does anyone know what the membership trend for each natonal club looks like for the past 5 years? Have they grown the membership?? Maybe if the membership is growing for each club all is good!! If not maybe a merger may help grow the hobby.

[BlueSunoco]

Originally Posted by brum1

Does anyone know what the membership trend for each natonal club looks like for the past 5 years? Have they grown the membership?? Maybe if the membership is growing for each club all is good!! If not maybe a merger may help grow the hobby.

Seems like MAFCA is slowly growing not sure about MARC. I believe I read where MAFCA is nearing 15,000 members. MAFCA was often times noted as 'the biggest auto club devoted to one make of automobile' and I believe that still holds true today. EFV-8 Club is what, maybe half that? For comparison.

[BlueSunoco]

[QUOTE=H. L. Chauvin;1023716

Suppose underwear companies would discontinue making all sizes of boxer shorts & only made briefs in Size 32 ...... thus having only one (1) choice.

Might cause upward pressure on your spinal chord & cause headaches.[/QUOTE]

Spinal chord would only be a small part of your worries. How about the boys

[DougVieyra]

For those who are not members of MAFCA, the latest edition of their magazine, THE RESTORER, had an excellent article on the "Basics of Front End Wheel Alignment". This kind of article is what makes the membership in one of the national clubs worth joining. Over the years, I have found that I prefer the MAFCA over the MARC publications, but both are well worth the read. Some like Porter House Steak - others prefer Rib Eye Steak. But they are both Steak - you don't have to have both.

[CarlG]

4 years ago I asked here "which club should I join?". Don't know that I got a hundred posts, but there were several.

So, here's my track:

I joined the only local club here: Antique Auto Mushers of Alaska. They required me to also be a member of AACA. Then within the local AAMA, is a subset: Alaskan A's, a chapter of MAFCA. Only logical that, (while not required) I joined MAFCA. Besides that I got this great magazine. My choice then was, Why not MARC? If for no other reason than to get their magazine, I felt it was worth it. Then I saw John LaVoy's magazine & while there was no club to join, I subscribed to it as well.

If for no other reason, I get these 4 first class magazines, all for less than it costs me for my wife's quilting magazines and the local quilt clubs she belongs to.

I see no reason to change.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Carl,

Sounds like your lovely wife is not only gifted & talented trying to hold on to an almost lost, beautiful art; but also energetic & most brilliant.

If I ever moved to Alaska, on cold nights, I think I would appreciate my artistic wife being interested in quilts also. As a kid I remember the cold nights when the fire in the fireplace was extinguished for safety reasons.

Quilt magazines & Model A magazines reminds us from whence we came & the sacrifices endured by our ancestors & all of us to establish freedom for all of our posterity.

Thanks for your ingenious response & heartfelt determination to fight "CHANGE".

[Ted Duke]

Marcos,

Again you have stated a truth!

Ted

[Ted Duke]

Timothy,

Ditto from me. I belong to both and a local chapter and if I only wanted to belong to one or NONE, I would!

Ted

[modelAgarth]

CTVPA
I'm not sure at MAFCA who declined providing a financial report but our policy is all MAFCA members are entitled to a copy if they request one. Per California law, there is a small fee for postage and copying, I believe it's about $3.00. If you will send a request to me at [email protected] with your contact info, I'll be happy to see it processed. Additionally, the required financial records are published yearly in The Restorer. We are still waiting on the last year's report from our CPA but I expect it to be published in the March/April or May/June issue.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by modelAgarth

CTVPA
I'm not sure at MAFCA who declined providing a financial report but our policy is all MAFCA members are entitled to a copy if they request one. Per California law, there is a small fee for postage and copying, I believe it's about $3.00. If you will send a request to me at [email protected] with your contact info, I'll be happy to see it processed. Additionally, the required financial records are published yearly in The Restorer. We are still waiting on the last year's report from our CPA but I expect it to be published in the March/April or May/June issue.

"Hello Mr. President!!" That is fun to say!!

Actually Mr. Shreading, welcome to Fordbarn and I am glad you have posted here. Now off to getting that gas gauge of yours calibrated so you don't run out of fuel and cause those Secret Service guys to go into a tizzy!!!

[1930artdeco]

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Whoohoo. we have the President in our midst. Welcome to the Barn.


Mike

[stewwolfe]

Welcome to Ford Barn Garth. I'm Glad to see that you are willing, once again, to provide inspired leadership to MAFCA.

[glenn in camino]

Egos of the board members of each club will prevent a merger until both clubs are bankrupt and gone.

[modelAgarth]

Brent, your FB comment inspired me to adjust the gas gauge, I'm doing it today

[brum1]

Would be good to see the clubs merge and present a stronger national presence.

[JohnLaVoy]

How about running for the board and making the changes you want rather than writing about it here.

[mshmodela]

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by mshmodela

FUNNY! This about says it all on this bad boy let's put it to rest. Time to move on.

I used to have an opinion on this but enjoy belonging to both clubs and don't plan on changing. End of story.

Wait.... look closely that horse blinked I'm sure of it!!

[daveymc29]

I belong to both and like it that way. I also belong to a local branch of mafca and at some point may join another local branch. Just having the choices is what I like.

[Bearing1]

I would be willing to pay a bit more and have a combined and stronger National club for the preservation of the hobby and antique cars. A combined voice carries more weight. This is not a political organization but a automobile club we all have the single interest of Model A Fords. I can almost tell the age of responders by the responses.

[KenCoupe]

First, let me say I belong to both national clubs and enjoy receiving both magazines because they each have a different point of view. I like having the choice of belonging to either one or both of the clubs (or neither).

Second, I have a few questions regarding the question posed, and I am not trying to be a wise guy or insulting to anyone. I am only trying to get information and data (I tend to be analytical by nature).

My questions:
You stated in the first post that an overwhelming number of members support merger. You subsequently stated you do statistcal analysis for a living. I would be interested in what your statistical population is - does it include all members of both clubs and also include Model A owners who are not members of the clubs? Have you made a scientific random sampling of this population? What degree of certainty does your sampling represent?

Also stated was that combination of the two clubs would result in a dramatic drop in operating costs. What studies have been conducted to substantiate this? On the surface it might appear that duplication of office staff would be eliminated, but a combined organization might have to increase staff to efficiently handle increased membership, increased merchandise sales, etc. A combined organization might save some on insurance costs, but by how much since a a single insurance would possibly be required to cover a larger membership at a given event. I just would like to see a substantiation of reduced costs and by how much. What are the costs of the merger, i.e. combining any computer systems, potentially moving the headquarters to a new location, creating a new logo (if the combined organization did not adopt one or the other existing logos) and the cost of new stationary, web site, and other combination costs? How long would it take to recover these merger costs?

Does one combined organization have a stronger voice, or do multiple voices (the two clubs) present a stronger voice? This is probably a rhetorical question that cannot be objectively answered.

Again, I am not trying to be a wise guy or insult anyone. I am only trying to obtain relevant objective data with regard to the question and a potential merger. Opinions are great and often relevant, but objective data also is important. It is my belief that an informed decision cannot be made without answers to the above questions and other questions as well.

[HoarseWhisperer]

Just another one for being a member of both clubs for the reasons already stated.

I value the meets, tours and publications of both.

[brum1]

Does anyone have facts on the growth(or decline) in membership of both national clubs?? in the past 5 years??

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by brum1

Does anyone have facts on the growth(or decline) in membership of both national clubs?? in the past 5 years??

Read some time ago, somewhere, that MAFCA has actually been gaining membership and it wasn't in their publications. If I can find it I'll scan the article.

When I first joined MAFCA in 1971 seems like they had around 12,000 members today I believe they;re over 15,000. Still largest car club devoted to one make of automobile.

Not QUITE sure about MARC I think they may have slipped a little but still doing well.

[brum1]

Thanks Jeff, no one seems to be quite sure on the numbers I thought is might be in the web site but could not find it?? Any club officers out there?? maybe someone can provide these facts?

[brum1]

forever4-any idea were we could find this info??

[steve s]

I don't recall whether or not I've chimed in on this before. If not, I will go on record in favor of merger. The differences are indiscernible too most members, so the wasteful duplication is nuts.

Reminds me of when, many years ago, I asked my Lutheran minister dad what it was going to take before some of the numerous synods decided to merge. He said, "Some people are going to have to die." He was right. I believe that organization is down to two major subgroups, between which there are truly significant (alas, political if not theological) differences that sort of justify separation.

[Jeff/Illinois]

[QUOTE=steve s;1047552].

Reminds me of when, many years ago, I asked my Lutheran minister dad what it was going to take before some of the numerous synods decided to merge. He said, "Some people are going to have to die."

Yowsa Steve, so how did you guys 'bump 'em off'? That is one strict church group

[Mike V. Florida]

Since we are talking about things that will never happen. How about the merger of Coke and Pepsi? Or McDonalds and Burger King.

Not car related? OK how about combining the big three auto makers?

[brum1]

forever4 thank you- i will do a seach

[180 a]

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I feel that we need both clubs and I do belong to both; for almost 35 years. One reason is that the national meets can be held at the east coast and west coast and no one would would have to travel the entire united states to attend.
We live in Michigan and if the meet was in California we would not be able to attend, both in the time and distance to get there.

The national magazines are well worth the price you pay , and the information is priceless.

[Charlville]

Don't really have a dog in the fight, but looking in from abroad the two clubs appear to compliment each other in the offerings that they provide? There will always be some overlap, but a monopoly is never good. You guys/girls are very lucky to have the choices and support for the car hobby in general