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Old 09-01-2010, 07:21 PM   #1
wrndln
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Default Featherfill high build primer

I have been using PPG K36 for my sanding primer so far. It is a little pricey and doesn't seem to build all that well - filling 80 grit sanding scratches. It does sand nice. I was thinking of going to Evercoat FeatherFill after I seal the metal with PPG DPxx. Does this sound OK to do? So far I have stayed strictly with PPG products - DPxx, K36 and Concept for fear of compatibility problems. I would seal the FeatherFill with DPxx before applying the finish coat. If you have done this or know if it is or isn't OK, please post a response.
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Old 09-01-2010, 08:27 PM   #2
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

The problem as I see it is you are using the wrong product. K36 is an epoxy sealer (which you don't need) and a surfacer. Always remember epoxy primers do not sand well at all. (They tend to ball up.) IMO what you need to be using Omni's MP282. If it is more money than you want to spend, consider Evercoat's Slick-Sand.

You do not need to seal the metal if you are going to use a top-coat. Epoxies are for sealing the metal that won't be painted, --or an unstable substrate such as a BC/CC where you have sanded through part of the CC and have surfacer beside BC and CC surounding it all.

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Old 09-01-2010, 09:04 PM   #3
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

Omni 282 works great and sands well. About 100 dollars a gallon with activator. The more you apply and sand off the better your paint will look.
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Old 09-01-2010, 09:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

Brent,
Are you sure PPG K36 is an epoxy sealer? I see no where in the product information sheets about it being an epoxy like PPG DPxx is. The product sheets say it is a primer surfacer. I guess I could call PPG and ask.
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:03 PM   #5
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

I used K38 on my Town Sedan, its the high build version of K36 and probably higher priced. I don't believe either is epoxy, only the DP stuff is epoxy. I had no trouble filling 80 grit scratches with 2 coats of K38. I hear the evercoat stuff is good too on other forums but not sure about compatibility. My total system was DP epoxy over bare metal, K38 over the DP, NCS sealer over the k38, then BC/CC, all PPG. Just finished on monday, will color sand this weekend. Looks like this...


First car I ever painted BTW.
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:09 PM   #6
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

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I have been using PPG K36 for my sanding primer so far. It is a little pricey and doesn't seem to build all that well - filling 80 grit sanding scratches. It does sand nice. I was thinking of going to Evercoat FeatherFill after I seal the metal with PPG DPxx. Does this sound OK to do? So far I have stayed strictly with PPG products - DPxx, K36 and Concept for fear of compatibility problems. I would seal the FeatherFill with DPxx before applying the finish coat. If you have done this or know if it is or isn't OK, please post a response.
Rusty I use the same products But I wet sand with 360 before the k36 and after with great results but if you try it dry it will ball up and load the paper.
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:10 PM   #7
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

RTC1930,
Nice looking paint job. I have never heard of K38 before. I will check at my paint supplier about it.
Thanks
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Old 09-01-2010, 11:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

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Originally Posted by wrndln View Post
I have been using PPG K36 for my sanding primer so far. It is a little pricey and doesn't seem to build all that well - filling 80 grit sanding scratches. It does sand nice. I was thinking of going to Evercoat FeatherFill after I seal the metal with PPG DPxx. Does this sound OK to do? So far I have stayed strictly with PPG products - DPxx, K36 and Concept for fear of compatibility problems. I would seal the FeatherFill with DPxx before applying the finish coat. If you have done this or know if it is or isn't OK, please post a response.
I have used the feather fill primer and I really like it. I fills better than any high build primer that I have ever used. It will easily fill 40 grit sand scratches if necessary. It sands much easier than the 2K high build primers that I have used. I block sanded it with sponge sanding blocks with great results. One of the good things about this primer is the catylist is peroxide and it contains NO isosynates. You will need at least a 1.8 tip on the gun. I wouldn't put a sealer over the Feather fill. It is best to keep the build up down. I painted right over it , you can even spray lacquer over it. I havent Known it to lift anything or anything to lift it. I sprayed the bare metal with 2K etching primer, Two thin coats, then applied the feather fill.

I haven't tried the slick sand that is made by the same company. it is more expensive and I think that it is only available in light gray. The feather fill can be had in gray or black. Black primer was best for me because I was painting the truck a dark color. It could take more coats to cover a light primer. Good luck.

The feather fill that I buy from Eastwood has been fresh and good. Not so with what I bought from a store near me. It must have sat on the shelf for years and was impossible to stir.
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Old 09-02-2010, 12:55 AM   #9
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

I haven't worked with Featherfill for 25 years so it may have changed somewhat. Featherfill was/is a polyester primer surfacer. It is great to work with as it builds fast and sands easy. It is very porous. It is essentially "spray Bondo". By contrast K36 is a urethane primer surfacer. It sands fairly well but is certainly more dense. In my opinion it's more chip resistant. The polyester tends to generate more heat from the chemical reaction with the catalyst. That makes it's more critical that the temperature of the metal is at a safe (higher) level when it's applied to avoid moisture issues under the primer.

As far as sealing prior to top coating, that will depend on the top coat and you must READ the specifics for the materials you are using. Believe me, IT MATTERS!
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Old 09-02-2010, 05:53 AM   #10
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

Rusty, you and Marco are correct. It is NOT an epoxy as I mis-stated above. I guess that is what I get from not reffering to my PPG manual!

Now one thing that has been mentioned several times is this really isn't surfacer in the truest sense. I actually logged onto my PPG account and pulled the sheet on it. It recommends it as a sealer. I have attached a Tech Sheet below. Also note that it is a 'wet on wet' sealer meaning you spray it first and allow it to flash off, then follow with your top-coat.

The polyester filler that Marco mentions along with Evercoat's SlickSand can indeed be very porus if applied incorrectly but like he mentioned, things have changed as far as technology & etc. In my state (and in many others too) it is unlawful for me to even have a non-HVLP gun in the area of the paint storage or spray booth. Therefore we are required (forced) to have the proper equipment to apply this product correctly. Using less air pressure helps eliminate the trapped air PLUS we use a primer gun that has a 2.0mm tip (1.8 is the norm for most primer guns now). Then by adding a bit of reducer to the primer for thinning purposes, you can apply a very smooth, slick coat of the polyester primer. This alone is great because it eliminates bridging and it cuts down on blocksanding labor. The down side to this is our gun cost almost $600 and we only use it for spraying polyester primer.

Two or three other points real quick, Purdy you are correct that SlickSand is a little more money but it is also a little new technology. While it is tintable, so is MP282 which is what we generally follow the SlickSand with and you can tint for use as a guidecoat, --or use a powdered guidecoat (which is what we do most of the time.). The 2nd point that needs to be made is for everone to be cautious using an extreme high-build primer over top of 40 grit marks because these products will bridge which will cause issues later down the road. Finally, Marco's advice on knowing your products and follow their recommendations is very prudent advice. For me personally, I do not use any sealer in my shop and PPG backs me up on giving lifetime warranties on our paint work.

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Attached Files
File Type: pdf PPG_K36.pdf (92.1 KB, 26 views)
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Last edited by BRENT in 10-uh-C; 09-02-2010 at 06:14 AM. Reason: adding & changing words.
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Old 09-02-2010, 06:09 AM   #11
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

I had been using dupont uro filling primer. That filled most of my rust pits in 3 coats and sanded easy. I got open coat sand paper and was sanding dry.

Recently i changed to SPI paint. Southern polyurethane paints are hobbiest friendly in price and use. The high build primer goes on easy and sands easy. The epoxy primer is better for hobbiests in that you have a week to recoat. I believe both ppt and dupont only have a few days with their epoxies.

The owner answers phone some times and will take the time to explian how the paints work and best use.
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Old 09-02-2010, 11:26 AM   #12
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer


This is interesting. Brent pulled up some stuff I hadn't seen before. Note the label says "primer surfacer". It appears PPG is marketing this product in two ways. I downloaded the primer surfacer version of the spec sheet this morning and attached it below. It's very similar to the one I have on file dated 1990. The difference is that 15+ years ago K36 could be thinned as a sealer but still used K201 catalyst. Now PPG pairs K36 with K201 for primer surfacer only and pairs it with DCX8/DCX61 when used as a sealer.

Kevin's comments above could possibly lead to confusion. It's important to note that typically "primer surfacers" do not have a recoat period as do primers and sealers. This is especially important for those that want to "do it right" but need to store parts for a period of time in an unfinished but protected state.
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Old 09-02-2010, 11:49 AM   #13
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

What is the difference between a primer and a primer surfacer? What would be the difference in using the product?

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Old 09-02-2010, 12:12 PM   #14
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

There is a ton of information on this site that I read through prior to committing to painting my own car. Below is the page related to paint technology and summerizes the differences between the primers and sealers, 1k vs 2k, etch vs epoxy, etc...
http://autobodystore.com/ms7.shtml

I should have mentioned in my earlier post that I used a sealer over the K38 specifically bacause the P-sheet says a sealer MUST be used if Black base coat is to be applied over the K38. I dont believe the k36 sheet says that so I guess it does not apply there. As marco pointed out the K38 was the only thing I allowed to sit while doing body work since it has no recoat window. The K38 was shot the day after epoxy, body work was completed, and then the NCS sealer, BC/CC were shot in sequence wet-on-wet.
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Old 09-02-2010, 12:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

Keep in mind I was very specific to talk about the recoat window of the epoxy primer.

First the idea of recoat windows.
The older paints like lacquer would melt the previous layer and chemically bond with the existing paint (way simplified here).
Modern 2 part or 2K paints have a chemical reaction take place where the molecules like up to become one giant molecule that is your paint. Once the reaction happens you can not restart it, it is done. While it is reacting (curing) the paint has openings in it to which the next layer can grab onto and bond (again very simplified). Once out of the recoat window the paint is very smooth and the next layer would have nothing to grab on and bond. To get the next layer to bond you would need to first sand it to create scratches on the surface.

I will try to address the primer/ surfacer uses.

A primer is put on to be sanded to help level the surface. If the sheet does not talk about recoat windows it is likely because the primer is designed to be sanded. So you would be doing finish sanding then the top coat.

If you have a patchwork of paint/ bondo on the surface as you some times get as you sand to level the surface. This patch work of surfaces may be visible through the top coat if they are not first sealed with a surfacer.

The primer sealer is usually put on thicker to fill and thin to be a surfacer. You can see in the K36 sheets they give you the option to reduce or lay it on thick. Marco indicates that they have you use different hardeners today. They do this to meet the VOC when sprayed rules. You can probably still use the old directions where you add reducer. The old directions sometimes make life easier unless the EPA catches you violating the VOC rules. I was using the old mix ratios with the Dupont URO a bunch of years ago and found a huge difference in getting the primer to lay nice, but I am quick to add that I am not a very good painter. When used as a surfacer you try to get a nice glossy coat and spray the top coat without sanding. The other option is to spray a light coat and give it a light sanding to get the dirt and dust level like us hobbyists tend to manage to get in our paint.
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Old 09-02-2010, 01:11 PM   #16
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

Marco, it is likely that the biggest reason for the confusion is the end consumer.

Most Collision shops do very little true sanding to 'level the surface' like we do. The biggest thing that haunts them is bleedback. That is where a Sealer comes in. Again, this does not affect us because most of the time we are using the primer as a surfacer to "level" with. The difference between the Hardeners is the 'kick time' due to the K36's Wet-on-Wet application to be a Sealer. Because this is a much cheaper product than say DCC (Concept), they want shops to tint the sealer with a splash of color to make the sealer closer to the surrounding color, ...and so they can save paint used on the top coat. Adding a couple of tablespoons of DCC top-coat to a sprayable qt. of sealer will likely eliminate a ¼ - ½ pint of top-coat because of being able to cover better.

THEN, if this is not confusing enough, rumor from my PPG jobber is that within the next year or so, the DCC (Concept) line will be eliminated and replaced with a line called Millenium which does not have heavy metals mixed in. Then, to top that, they tell me that within the next 5 years, EPA is mandating that all shops will only be able to spray water-bourne paint. I am looking at a $25k investment to upgrade my booth to comply with water-bourne. They already have forced me to spray all primers inside of a spray booth, that all guns must be HVLP only and have a maintenance log kept on them, and that we cannot even spray clean-out thinner into the air unless we are inside of a booth.
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Old 09-02-2010, 01:32 PM   #17
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

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EPA is mandating that all shops will only be able to spray water-bourne paint. I am looking at a $25k investment to upgrade my booth to comply with water-bourne. They already have forced me to spray all primers inside of a spray booth, that all guns must be HVLP only and have a maintenance log kept on them, and that we cannot even spray clean-out thinner into the air unless we are inside of a booth.
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Old 09-02-2010, 02:14 PM   #18
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

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I have been using PPG K36 for my sanding primer so far. It is a little pricey and doesn't seem to build all that well - filling 80 grit sanding scratches. It does sand nice. I was thinking of going to Evercoat FeatherFill after I seal the metal with PPG DPxx. Does this sound OK to do? So far I have stayed strictly with PPG products - DPxx, K36 and Concept for fear of compatibility problems. I would seal the FeatherFill with DPxx before applying the finish coat. If you have done this or know if it is or isn't OK, please post a response.
After reading Marco and Brents Good and very informative posts I figured I probably needed to say a little more, so as not to give anybody the wrong impression. While Feather Fill is the best high build sprayable primer that I have used, It may well not be the best there is. As with any Primer, I would never spray over 40 grit sand scratches, that is just what the lable implies it is capable of and I don't doubt it.

I have been retired from the paint and body shop business for a few years. When in business I used Sherwin Williams paint products on the cars and Kirker on the Mack trucks. Sherwin Williams required that you use all of their products as recommended to be in the lifetime warranty program. We didn't mix and match brands. Now that I am retired I only work on my own cars. and I can use what ever product that I choose.

I feel that Feather Fill is a good product for the home restorer or anybody else for that matter. As with any product it is always best to follow the manufacturers lable or data sheet instructions. Its best not to pile any paint product on too heavy or problems will follow. Thinning does help, especially on the final coat to help flow and smoothness. I have used Feather Fill over etching primers and it could be used over epoxy primer. I have had no problems with the product being porus, I guess I must have used it correctly. anything is possible as far as problems with any product if not used as directed.

I use an inexpensive gravity feed gun that I bought from Smart Shopper for heavy primers, it uses a 1.8 tip and does the job quiet well. I wouldn't want to use an expensive gun with Feather Fill or any high build primer for fear of clogging and ruining the gun. It is best to spray good grade lacquer thinner through the gun between coats or the gun will probably stop up in the waiting period between coats.

You can top coat Feather Fill with Lacquer, enamel or urethane with good results. Anybody that has ever sprayed acrylic lacquer knows that it doesn't fill anything greater than maybe 320 sand scratches. I have used acrylic lacquer and urethane enamel over Featherfill with good results. Opinions of course vary.
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Old 09-02-2010, 04:26 PM   #19
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

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What is the difference between a primer and a primer surfacer? What would be the difference in using the product?

Thanks.
Some of the old bodymen that I once worked with, mostly dead by now, told me that in the old days, primer and surfacer were not combined. you first sprayed on the primer and then the surfacer. In later years they were combined and hence the name primer surfacer. The surfacer that was added was talc.
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Old 09-02-2010, 06:56 PM   #20
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Default Re: Featherfill high build primer

My two cents is only that noone should be filling anything heavier than a 180 grit surface with any sort of primer, it will only shrink later and look like crap later.
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