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Old 01-30-2016, 04:53 PM   #61
H. L. Chauvin
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

I think I heard recently on CNN News about a very unique and secure "private" server where one can send and store their Secret, Model A Wood Drawings and Wood Plans by email, and they will never be downloaded, confiscated, copied, divulged, nor sold to special interest groups.
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Old 01-30-2016, 05:06 PM   #62
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

I down loaded some wood plans for a child potty chair. Once in my computer I tried to add it to my favorites and save it. The plans said i could not save them due to being protected.
Not sure if this pertains to the discussion, just thought i would throw it out there.
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:23 PM   #63
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

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I think I heard recently on CNN News about a very unique and secure "private" server where one can send and store their Secret, Model A Wood Drawings and Wood Plans by email, and they will never be downloaded, confiscated, copied, divulged, nor sold to special interest groups.
I think that that server is now in the hands of the FBI!

If I were King, I'd make some sort of a deal with a vocational school to give the wood shop access to the drawings and market individual pieces. Profits would remain in the school and students would not only get hand hands on experience, but learn the realities on the enterprise system. Within the school, I'm sure that there is a computer lab that could set up an online catalog ordering system. Finally, MAFCA and MARC would donate the ad space to make A owners aware of the availability of this service. Come to think of it, this sort of a program could be duplicated in several schools to spread the wealth and set up regional operations to keep shipping costs in line.
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Old 01-30-2016, 11:51 PM   #64
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Sell them locked with the social security number of the purchaser. or the personal info of the buyer watermarked in the drawings...
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Old 01-31-2016, 12:41 AM   #65
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"How do I keep piracy of reselling the plans from happening??"

Offer them FREE!
Ron W
,That would be like asking you to work for nothing at your occupation. This man's livelihood is cars. He must get a monetary reward for his investment.
If you were a carpenter would you build free cupboards or garages for people you did not know? Highly unlikely. The idea to have him work for nothing is ridiculous. Wayne
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Old 01-31-2016, 06:35 AM   #66
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Why the hell are Model A wood kits so damn expensive anyway.
They are just wood and there are enough Model A's and T's for that matter out there to make it economical enough to produce at a fair price.
I don't think this country is short of lumber...

I hope old car restorers/builders make their own wood parts and let those thieving bastards go broke.
Just take a look at what the cost of a Model A pickup roof kit costs or that of a roadster pickup body kit.

Most pieces are not rockets science and surely these big time reproducers have computer operated equipment that punch this stuff out by the thousands if required.
If they don't have that fancy machinery then our low paid illegals or folks across the border would be willing to make that stuff at low prices.

Don't get me started on where else this stuff could be had cheap...

At least I see one of lower priced manufacturers does sell single components in lieu of a whole kit.
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Old 01-31-2016, 07:46 AM   #67
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Why the hell are Model A wood kits so damn expensive anyway.
They are just wood and there are enough Model A's and T's for that matter out there to make it economical enough to produce at a fair price.
I don't think this country is short of lumber...

I hope old car restorers/builders make their own wood parts and let those thieving bastards go broke.
Just take a look at what the cost of a Model A pickup roof kit costs or that of a roadster pickup body kit.

Most pieces are not rockets science and surely these big time reproducers have computer operated equipment that punch this stuff out by the thousands if required.
If they don't have that fancy machinery then our low paid illegals or folks across the border would be willing to make that stuff at low prices.

Don't get me started on where else this stuff could be had cheap...

At least I see one of lower priced manufacturers does sell single components in lieu of a whole kit.

With all due respect, I can tell you really do NOT have a clue as to what is involved. You stated you don't think this country is short of lumber however I can tell you that my experiences of obtaining Ash counters your thoughts. Next, making the purchase and then warehousing it for up to a year as it dries is not just a dollar or two a board foot any longer.

Next, due to several reasons, the hand labor that is still involved in making many specialty pieces is what drives up the costs. Having a CNC router is fine however look at the waste costs, and the fixturing costs involved in holding that wood while it is being cut. While I realize you you don't feel like this is rocket science, I doubt you have studied the different axis' on many pieces. You then commented on machines and companies could spit these kits out by the thousands. Yes that is likely true however, how many "thieving bastards" have the funds and/or space to inventory all of those kits waiting to be sold? Let's use the most popular closed-car wood structured Sedan as an example and guess that they only sell 1-2 kits per month. At that rate, they would sell 25 kits a year ...and producing 1,000 kits would be a 40 year supply. Now let's just suppose that the actual costs (materials & labor) for that kit would come in at $2,000.00. Who has the money to put $ 2,000,000.00 in inventory and wait 40 years for their ROI? Now, factor that towards how many different kits are needed and hopefully you can see how mass-producing is not an option.

Also, I have explored the costs and even a 3-axis router of any quality and size is over $100k, ...and to have one large enough to do a piece in one elite operation was close to $500k.

I will leave you with this, in my shop we are using a 20" planer with a 5hp 3-phase motor, a Delta Unisaw with a 3hp motor, a Powermatic 18" bandsaw with a 2hp motor along with a couple of commercial sanders. We also use a Bridgeport Mill to fabricate sills. My point is to show that I have large enough equipment to be efficient with time when we fabricate body wood. I also have a craftsman who is in his late 50s that until about 4 years ago was a trim carpenter his whole life. With our patterns and many of the original prints to reference off of, it still takes us 250-275 hours to fabricate and install a wood kit in a Fordor body, -and generally 100 hours of that is just fabricating wood.

I tend to believe that my shop produces a better product than what the kit manufacturers do for two main reasons. The kit manufacturers know that there are restorers out there who will not pay the price for top quality, so they tailor their product accordingly. Also, the kit manufacturers must alter the original design of certain pieces so the kit can be shipped affordably. But even with what they produce, they are entitled to make a fair wage for their product. These companies have bills & employees to take care of, but they produce a product for a consumer who does not have the ability and/or resources to manufacture the bodywood themselves. Be grateful you have the option to purchase a kit, and if you feel the costs are too excessive for your budget, then feel free to secure the tooling involved with fabricating your own wood. Who knows, you may do such a good job on yours where others will ask you to make kits for them. If you wind up doing that, I just hope they never call you a "thieving bastard" behind your back as you charge them what you feel is fair for your services.
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Old 01-31-2016, 10:35 AM   #68
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What would be the total market? Are you selling to guys replacing portions of wood body pieces or guys building complete bodies from scratch. I would think the market would reach only a few persons with the wherewithal to do their own work. How many A's are out there needing wood?
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Old 01-31-2016, 11:06 AM   #69
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It is all smoke and mirrors when it comes to Model A & T wood kits in my book.
Shipping prices do not come into it, but while we at it, the cost of shipping these days is not all that flash and they handle it like they are intent to destroy it...
Maybe the packages are shipped via a war zone first.

Why such a mafia strangle hold on access to pattern drawings, what's your guess!!!
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Old 01-31-2016, 11:56 AM   #70
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

find the problem areas and sell problem area wood kits. those will make you some money. for instance all the wood is pretty good on my fordor. but if i get the roof off again i will replace the area where the soft top nails to.
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Old 01-31-2016, 12:18 PM   #71
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not having the body styles that are wood-intensive, much of this is above my head. one specific thing that puzzles me, is how Brent gets so many phone calls about wood patterns, if, to make those pieces requires so much expensive equipment. do that many restorers really have a large woodworking shop, in addition to all the regular tools it takes to work on these cars?
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Old 01-31-2016, 09:44 PM   #72
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

25 years ago we bought a Model A wood manufacturing company called Myers Model. A Wood, from Wichita KS. Anyone that has restored Model A's for more then 25 years likely used there wood and loved it as the quality was better then any wood kits made before or now. This company only made wood for roadsters, phaetons, pickups, Tudors and coupes. That's all. No 4 doors, panels etc. Just the tooling to make these parts filled a 53 foot tractor trailer. Now, add in the wood heavy 4 door sedans etc , and your tooling triples, since you now are making over 1100 different pieces of wood. ( by the way, in this 53 foot trailer was only the fixtures- no saws, routers, etc. just the tooling fixtures).

We sold that company because everyone wanted the cheapest wood kits made by the other companies (one of which now makes almost all the wood kits now).

The guy that bought it all from us wished he hadn't, and has made little Model A wood, since he makes a lot more money building custom homes.

What I was trying to say here is

- 1100 pieces of wood d takes a lot of tooling to make.
- it wood cost a lot to make these parts, and most folks will still buy the cheapest ones anyhow.

Just my thoughts.....

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Old 01-31-2016, 11:57 PM   #73
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There is no strangle hold. Everyone is free to go to the archives and look at and copy the drawings for personal use at no charge. There are charges if they do it for you. There are licensing charges if you use the drawings for commercial purposes.
Do you have a link to said archives? It would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
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Old 02-01-2016, 01:03 AM   #74
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Why the hell are Model A wood kits so damn expensive anyway.
They are just wood and there are enough Model A's and T's for that matter out there to make it economical enough to produce at a fair price.
I don't think this country is short of lumber...

I hope old car restorers/builders make their own wood parts and let those thieving bastards go broke. I have no way to make the complicated parts that some body parts require. If I had to make my own I could not and would have to give up any hope of restoration.
Just take a look at what the cost of a Model A pickup roof kit costs or that of a roadster pickup body kit.

Most pieces are not rockets science and surely these big time reproducers have computer operated equipment that punch this stuff out by the thousands if required. You know this how?
If they don't have that fancy machinery then our low paid illegals or folks across the border would be willing to make that stuff at low prices.

Don't get me started on where else this stuff could be had cheap...

At least I see one of lower priced manufacturers does sell single components in lieu of a whole kit. Try to order a part from them people have spent months trying to get a hold of them.
I wish all would sell by the piece. As you mentioned there are quite a few pieces that can be made by the average guy. And this would save quite a bit of money for us if we could make the "simple" pieces. But don't be fooled, even the most simple part can be more difficult then you first think.
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Old 02-01-2016, 01:06 AM   #75
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Do you have a link to said archives? It would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
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You have to go there for it to be free to hand copy the information.
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Old 02-01-2016, 01:08 AM   #76
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

My friend replaced all the wood in his 1930 Murray Town Sedan, and I looked at his original wood sill from just one side. Even if I had the blueprint for that part it would be very difficult to make. I'd want his original part and a duplicating machine.
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Old 02-01-2016, 02:38 AM   #77
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I wish all would sell by the piece. As you mentioned there are quite a few pieces that can be made by the average guy. And this would save quite a bit of money for us if we could make the "simple" pieces. But don't be fooled, even the most simple part can be more difficult then you first think.
Yes, so simple that is why even some of the so called suppliers/craftsman screw up their pieces.
I know I've been sent some of their junk...
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Old 02-01-2016, 04:22 AM   #78
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

Fear not guys there are 3D prints doing a wood products that looks like wood drills screws and glues like wood in almost every way
Only way I can tell it is fake wood is the smell and it is water proof
only a matter of time before it gets to our hobby
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Old 02-01-2016, 06:12 AM   #79
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Sounds like mana from heaven.
Is wood work judged in concourse events???
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Old 02-01-2016, 07:57 AM   #80
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Fear not guys there are 3D prints doing a wood products that looks like wood drills screws and glues like wood in almost every way
Only way I can tell it is fake wood is the smell and it is water proof
only a matter of time before it gets to our hobby
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Sounds like mana from heaven.
Is wood work judged in concourse events???
The only issue that I know of that needs to be worked thru with the composites is the "elasticity" of product as compared to the wood. These composites seem to work well as long as twisting or vibrations are not being subjected ....and we all know how much constant twisting and vibration these bodies are subjected to. Very likely they will get engineer this issue away in the future.

With that said, the two root problems still comes back to the time it will take to fabricate a piece and the very limited quantity that would be made at one time. I guess it is just like Model-A gas tanks. The technology to manufacture dies has never been as easy as now, -and the availability to manufacture them off-shore has never been as cheap as it is yet it is still not financially feasible to manufacture Model-A gas tanks. I suspect it never will be financially feasible to fabricate Model-A wood in automated methods either.

Eric, I wanna go back and address your earlier comment. I think there are hobbyists out there who you never hear about who have the ability to use the existing wood for patterns, and they have the skills & tooling to manufacture wood. These guys are perfectly comfortable with what they have and really don't need patterns. When you get outside of that type hobbyist, I am not sure who would purchase a set of plans but my thoughts are you will sell some for guys that have a strong desire but in reality do not have the tooling nor the skill to pull it off (...and likely if they did, they would be in the first group above and really not need them).

So it basically boils down to what is the value of a set of plans? A detailed set of plans for a Fordor or a Vic would probably be worth $1,000.00. Would someone pay it? A few may, but then think about how easy it would be (if you had nothing) to purchase a wood kit from a vendor to template from, then make your own and resell your kit at 90% of what you initially paid for it. Kinda like having a set of 3D plans. So my take on the whole project is offering plans really is not worth the reward.
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