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Old 07-28-2013, 07:25 PM   #21
green30coupe
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

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Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer View Post
I hate to say it but with the perfection the the 3D printer just around the corner, creating a one off piece will cease to be an issue....no matter what the piece is off of.
The price is already coming down and eventually 3D printers will be affordable for the general public. I feel certain that Model A wood will soon be reproduced in a high-density plastic that will not shrink, split, warp or rot yet will accept nails and screws just like wood.
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Old 07-28-2013, 07:47 PM   #22
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

With as laser scanner and a 3D printer, there is nothing that couldn't be reproduced. If I was just getting into the job market rather than leaving it......
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Old 07-28-2013, 07:55 PM   #23
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

Brent:

You have seen my collection of drawings for the 225A. I have everyone from the archives, including all the wood ones. You could not possibly create a way to describe on the drawings, the compound curves, overlapping joints, non 90 degree edges and sweeping joints, etc. After buying the plans, they would have to invest heavily in some wood working equipment and still be left with more than a handful of questions about your 'drawings'. A great number of the wood drawings are made with the understanding that some fitting will need to be done after assembly to fit the sheetmetal.

I have done three pickups, the 225A and two Tudors , all with relatively simple wood work, and NONE were the same or a perfect fit upon initial assembly. I was really ticked off with the 'easy' first pickup until I figured this out.

There is NO WAY you want this headache. Each customers wood would require different fittings and phone instructions would be futile. Your customers would be proud of you for selling them inexpensive 'kits and drawings', then get 'touchy' when they could not figure out why it does not fit the first time on their own.

I spent a month or two with a gentleman that had a 3-dimensional wood 'tracer' machine in an attempt to do this for some simple pickup wood, and we both agreed that it was not going to be a money maker to start with and the questions became increasingly evident as we pursued it.

As a Model a restorer, the patterns will work great for you because you already know where to join, trim, extend, etc. each piece after assembly, but that is an almost impossible thought to put on paper for folks that dont have similar contractions and expansions to their existing wood.

I'm not much of a fisherman, but that seems to be more worms than you could ever use!

As always, just a thought.
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Old 07-28-2013, 08:39 PM   #24
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

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Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
I definately agree with that. Buying just the pieces for the rear door assembly and the risers for the floor would make the deluxe delivery wood easy from there. The guy in Co. that made afew kits for the Deuxe Delivery would not just sell individual pieces. Buying the whole kit would not be neccessary as I have patterns to make some of the common wood other than the header. Rod
Sometimes the costs associated with manufacturing just one or two pieces make it prohibitive for a company to make a profit. There is set-up time and packaging time that if it is spread out over 30-40 pieces, it is much different than unboxing all of the patterns, sorting thru all of them to find the correct one or two specific pieces, fabricating those two pieces, ...and then re-boxing all of the patterns & jigs and taking them back to storage.


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Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
You will need to find a price point that will get you your money for digitizing the and the labor to get them to the customer that will reduce the temptation to pirate them.

Maybe the better answer is to start a wood kit division of your company selling the kits for less than the others.

The Victoria Assoc has TIFF's of the original drawings for most of the wood. Some are very dark and nearly unreadable. I've taken on the task to clean them up best I can without redrawing them.
Mike, my question has been do most people that are potential purchasers of prints actually have the capability to fabricate what is on piece of paper anyway. To do good quality work involves using good quality equipment, and IMO there is a fairly vast amount of machinery necessary to do a quality job. Adding to that is a craftsman that can utilize the tools along with the prints to make the pieces properly.

To answer your comment about a wood division, I actually already have a 'wood division' and an employee who came out of the furniture industry who works 40 hours a week fabricating wood for bodies. The problem I have with offering kits at a cheaper price is that our quality/fit is much better than what you purchase in a kit. This is not a 'dig' against the commercially available kits but in reality is more about a hamburger from a steak house vs. McDonalds 'Big Mac'. Both have their place but are really two different products with the same name.


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Originally Posted by Roadster62 View Post
Would buying your plans vs. buying the wood kit or pieces of it be less costly? If all the proper tools were at hand would your plans produce a better product than the kits that are on the market? Bob
Bob, probably not. In life, I really do not want to create a "McDonald's quality" product. The benefit of buying a manufactured kit is for most people is it serves a need however it does have limitations. With a set of prints, someone can measure their own sheetmetal and compare to the print dimensions to make adjustments accordingly before making sawdust whereas if you hold a prefabricated piece of wood in your hand, you can only make corrections if the piece of wood is too big. Often times that is not the case which delays the project and creates frustration.



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Originally Posted by denis4x4 View Post
Don't forget the bandsaw with a 10" throat, power planer and misc. sanders. FYI, Home Depot and Lowes don't carry a decent hardwood selection.

Brent, go for product sales on an individual basis and forget the plans.
Denis, thanks for the advice. For several years now we have been doing coachcrafting on a custom-installation basis where we fabricate the pieces to fit the car properly. On a related topic, in the past we have made one-off sheetmetal panels for people to install themselves and most people balk at the price I must charge. I try to explain that my repro panel is a custom-made panel that is exact in aesthetics however my price always gets compared to Howell's, so we just quit retailing patch panels because of the complaining. My fears about the wood would be the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
Most that would want patterns would be way to frugal to pay five hundred dollars.
That has been my fear all along in that most people have no idea what is involved.


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Originally Posted by Ron W View Post
"How do I keep piracy of reselling the plans from happening??"

Offer them FREE!
Ron W
Quote:
Originally Posted by eystein View Post
Exactly !

Excellent idea.

Give them away for free. The important point is to help get as many A's possible correctly restored and on the road.

So who should organise it and handle the funds needed to provide drawings?

Well, what about organisations like MARC, MAFCA and MAFFI.

Personally, I would much rather donate $100 towards getting Ford archive drawings on the web than building the model A museum.
I guess it should not matter that I have spent 1,000s of hours of labor & dollars making these patterns & prints yet you are suggesting I am suppose to just to give them away??


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Mason View Post
Embed the purchasers ssn (or other id dats) in strategic places through out the prints.
Wouldn't a large black permanent marker circumvent this anti-piracy tatic?


Thanks all for your thoughts. Always good to hear other's perspectives..
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Old 07-28-2013, 08:51 PM   #25
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

Brent, I encountered this dilemma in my design business when I first started out in 1970. A very seasoned associate designer said, "Charge what you think is a fair price for your work. Put a copyright sign on it, then turn it loose. Don't think about it any more. You've made your money, and those who respect the copyright will come to you for permission. You can't control the crooks."

I ran my business like that for 37 years, and my hair isn't gray yet.
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Old 07-28-2013, 11:45 PM   #26
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Well, What Model A body styles do you have the wood drawings for, now that you've wetted our appetites??? Do you have any for the Deluxe Delivery? If so toss out a price and see what happens.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:04 AM   #27
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

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Well, What Model A body styles do you have the wood drawings for..., ??

Do you have any for the Deluxe Delivery?


Like this one???

















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Old 07-29-2013, 12:12 AM   #28
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

Brent,
That is some nice work.
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Old 07-29-2013, 01:26 AM   #29
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

Looks like he has them for the 130-B.
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Old 07-29-2013, 01:45 AM   #30
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

Brent, was all that nice wood left bare when the vehicle left the factory or was it body color. Beautiful workmanship. Bob
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Old 07-29-2013, 03:34 AM   #31
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

Brent, i wasn't really answering you when I wrote my post, I was making a general statment that I think that getting such information out To the restorers should be the job of the non-profit organisations. They may collect donations to pay for information from the Ford archives or perhaps from you if they find that appropriate.



[quote : I guess it should not matter that I have spent 1,000s of hours of labor & dollars making these patterns & prints yet you are suggesting I am suppose to just to give them away?? ]
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:53 AM   #32
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

Don't even go there. If these are from archives give them part numbers and let them order them. Yes, there could be lots of part numbers. "Free" is a bit amusing remembering "no good deed goes unpunished". Folks wanting something for nothing are usually the ones wanting mega bucks at the end of the project. I Am NOT being specific to any posters in this thread....so don't start that I am, please!Brent forget it and lay low on that!
Also if at archives, any copyright issues?? Fomoco issues?
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:05 PM   #33
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

Wouldn't the plans be like a book; I can't copy it but I can resell it. Yes you should charge for them but once I have bought them and am done with them or found my skill level was not up to it, aren't they mine to sell? If you put a disclaimer saying the buyer, who spent 5-800 on them, can't resell them, don't think you would get many buyers.
Kinda like what happened with the Mel Miller plans for the Model T, lots of copied sets out there because there was no policing of them after he passed and before his daughter took over control and they were copywrited.
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:27 PM   #34
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

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Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Wouldn't a large black permanent marker circumvent this anti-piracy tatic?
What I had in mind was a watermark or perhaps making the lines up from the buyers name and address. Placing the ID data in in a critical place so if it was blacked out the drawing would be useless. It would at least slow them down. More thinking out loud than anything...
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:07 PM   #35
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

brent

i am personally involved in two "similar" projects..

and am struggling with the same issues.. (how to protect the investment of time and money on our clubs part (and mine) ) from "sharing"

and.. what cost to associate with the drawings..


on another note..

there is in fact a 3d printed material that is based on "wood" and would certainly be acceptable for structural non ornamental body wood..

and..
currently 3d printers are available for under 1000... I have taught students from age 12 - 18 how to model parts more complicated than most of the body wood in a model a..
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:16 AM   #36
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

You have a model A block that you just pushed a rod through the side of it. You laser scan the block...then you go to a 3 D printer and produce the same block with the original stamps. That day is not so far off based on the technology we have today.
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Old 08-06-2014, 09:30 PM   #37
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

We have a 3D printer at work and it's amazing. However, doing large parts, like the wood header above the windshield on a tudor, is not practical. More realistic, is the parts can be imaged with a laser and very accurate drawings and patterns can be generated in a jiff. I can understand the shops like B. Terry want to make a buck on the work they do, and rightfully so, but the national clubs could take this on and provide it back to the membership. Most don't have the tools and expertise to fab the wood parts even from plans, so i doubt it would have any impact to shops currently making the wood kits. I rather have the plans rather than another museum that most will never see.

Just my 2-cents.
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Old 08-06-2014, 09:47 PM   #38
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

Here's my thought on it. Maybe you offer the drawings for the low wood use cars for cheap. Let's just say $50-75 just so someone has something to go off of if they want to make their own kit. Probably even cheaper for like roadster pick up wood, or some of to very few cars that used small small portions of wood. But once you get into the wood subframe cars, or medium amount of wood use cars, start charging more. The fordoors, deluxe phaetons, A400, deliveries, etc... people would probably be willing to pay a couple hundred dollars for the drawings. Copyright your drawings if you can. That way no one can publish them legally without your permission. As far as people selling the drawings after their done, it will happen. But probably not very often. Most people will keep them "just incase" they ever do another, or something happens to the car like a wreck or something.
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Old 08-06-2014, 11:40 PM   #39
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I wouldn't mess with the headache. Think about how many calls a day classic and ford wood must get from customers saying the kit doesn't fit? Do you want to mess with that? Some guy takes your plans, cut the stuff wrong, then it's your fault. No thanks.
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:15 AM   #40
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Default Re: Making Wood Plans available

Run as fast as you can from mentioning earning even a nickel from the use of Ford Archive information!
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