The Ford Barn

allen · 07-01-2010, 06:39 PM

larry if you read the post this is what I'm saying, and yes i do remember unleaded gas, this is the very point i was trying to make that they added lead to gas it was not like stp read the post

Larry Brumfield · 07-01-2010, 07:41 PM

"Are you saying that pumps did not have lead in them, seem to me, i recall lead and unleaded back in the day, Im sure there was unleaded around, but if they did not put it in gas why do pump say unleaded today, why not just gas"

Quote:

Originally Posted by allen

larry if you read the post this is what I'm saying, and yes i do remember unleaded gas, this is the very point i was trying to make that they added lead to gas it was not like stp read the post

I read your posts, Allen. Now go back and reread mine.

I didn't say anything about pumps or what was offered at pumps. That was your erroneous conclusion.

My discussion about lead was in reference to the research and development in 1922 before lead was even offered to the public.

Larry B.

Old182 · 07-01-2010, 08:32 PM

One key point that's not been said is that tetraethyl lead (TEL) was first used in aircraft in 1922. Kettering worked with Midgley on this because a high octane fuel was needed for fighter planes of the era and refining at the time was crappy (i.e. only able to produce relatively low octane gasoline). The first tests used a whopping 16 cc of lead per gallon! Today, 100 low lead aviation gasoline can contain a maximum of 2 mL (approximatley 2g) of TEL, (TEL contains ~40% lead). Recent tests show that about 0.5 mL/gallon TEL will prevent valve seat recession, but Model A engines can't run fast enough or make enough heat to cause the valves to recede. In the 1960s, gasolines could contain over 4 ml/gal, but as emissions laws took over the country, lead was being reduced through the 1970s and 1980s until there was less than 0.10mL/gal by the end. You just weren't told about it.

oldmotorsguy · 07-02-2010, 07:53 AM

Pretty decent responses to this lead question, guys. Thanks much. I am now armed to the teeth with answers about lead: the overwhelming consensus is that the Model A engine was designed as an 'unleaded' fuel engine.

Now I am just waiting in ambush for the next numb nuts to jerk me around about not having hardened valve seats.

MrTube · 07-02-2010, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldmotorsguy

Pretty decent responses to this lead question, guys. Thanks much. I am now armed to the teeth with answers about lead: the overwhelming consensus is that the Model A engine was designed as an 'unleaded' fuel engine.

Now I am just waiting in ambush for the next numb nuts to jerk me around about not having hardened valve seats.

Just lie, its not worth arguing over. If someone asks if you have them say yes. That will solve that problem.

I learned that years ago working with audio equipment. I build my own amplifiers and often people will ask if I use film capacitors. Every time I tell someone "no I use high quality ceramics" i get this whole story, and argument and it ends up wasting hours of my life. So I just answer yes to anyone that asks me.

These are amps I use for personal use so what people think really doesn't matter anyway.

skip · 07-02-2010, 03:59 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

That sharp Collie Bark ARF!
From a cute blonde and sable rough coat collie.
Got him when Logan was four months old. He's now 10 years old.

skip and his master.

Old182 · 07-02-2010, 04:30 PM

The engine builders I've talked to say they use inserted seats to build up the seat to its original position in the block. Not because of valve seat recession; the seat gets lower and lower with each valve job - could be quite a few over ~80 years. Now that makes sense.

Ron in Quincy · 07-02-2010, 04:53 PM

Most engine builders, if truthful to a customer, will say its a waist of money to install hard seats if the existing seats are OK.
Regarding unleaded fuel, I personally never have added a lead subsitute, use it straight out of the pump and have never had a valve problem. I believe during the Model A era most of the regular gasoline was unleaded; with leaded fuel it pays to remove the head occasionally and remove the carbon buildup. Carbon can break off and fall under the valve seat which results with burnt valves, etc.
Just my opinion,

Ron

cannon · 07-02-2010, 05:15 PM

as i remember in 1949 working at a mobilgas station, we had two types of gasoline pumps: one was regular-the other was hi-test (ethyl) both had the "contains lead" plate afixed to the pump....
over in a hand crank above ground tank was white gas for your mothers gas iron, or lantern.....

Terry, NJ · 07-03-2010, 06:25 AM

If anyone is concerned with not having lead, just go to your local airport get some 100LL (Pssst. the LL means it has lead) aviation gas. You'll pay around $ 5 or more a Gal but you probably pay that much for a little bottle of additive, but you'll be putting a gal of gas in the tank with it. I am a shooter and some one these hippies found out about lead styphnate a few years ago and they wanted to shut ranges down because of it. This fear mongering on the part of the liberals over a substance has got many of us on the edge of our seats. I once met a woman who could "Feel" the asbestos entering her body. The "asbestos" was one steampipe that was fully encapsulated and in a utility closet at the other end of the building. Such is the extent of the effect of this propaganda. The only thing she was feeling were the prickly thorns of her imagination!
Terry

skip · 07-03-2010, 09:07 AM

100LL at our Door County Cherryland Aeroport is $4.50 a gallon.
And the jet fuel is kerosene basically.

skip who cuts grass there.

So if your house is 1974[?] or newer and more than 6 sq foot is to be 'renovated' say by replacing a window and you can't do it yourself and must find a licensed contractor, that contractor must do two things before he can start. For $350 he must test for lead. And for $350 more he must test for asbestos. That is $700 before that window job can even start. A $35,000 fine if he is caught not doing the two tests....

...the unlicensed guy working out of the back of his pick-up truck and not doing these tests as long as he's not reported, he can save himself the $35,000 fine and can have that window out and replaced in a couple of hours, technically should but he is not required to do $700 in tests for a stinking $200 window. Thanks to the 'present administration'.

If your house is older than 1974 the 'present administration' doesn't care if you eat the paint and smoke the asbestos.

Is this assign or what? Just apply common sense.

skip.

Keith True · 07-03-2010, 11:02 AM

I worked at an American station in high school and a little while after.Our high test was always unleaded.Never heard of problems,and a lot of people came in just for the 'clean'high test.We had regular leaded,and at the end of the island we had an orphan pump that had a cheapo unleaded regular called Blueboy.We mainly sold that to campers and such,it was known as white gas also.The machine shop I use replaces valve seats as needed,not as an unleaded conversion.He still gets a lot of people insisting they need an unleaded conversion,so if they insist,he just does it rather than taking an hour out of the shop trying to explain why it is not needed.He said he has made a bunch of money doing unleaded conversions on Harleys.Somebody,somewhere,published an article telling of the death and destruction of your engine if you did not have this done.A lot of people read it,and he said he carved out perfectly good hard seats and replaced them with some more of the same.He said those guys came in in droves,and trying to explain to most they were already equipped with the hard seats was like talking to the wall.He took their money,did the work,and they went home with nothing better than they brought in.But they were happy.

Kohnke Rebabbitting · 07-03-2010, 01:22 PM

We started using hard seats about 1970-72 in all engines, after we found out 3 to 6 months of alot of driving would get you a burnt poor quality valve, and when the valve burns, it would eat at the seat in short order. With hard seats all you would have to do is replace the valve, and not even have to grind the seat, just hand lap the new Poor Quality valve to make sure that it did seat properly, and that a valve face divided evenly into 1/3rd's, and the middle 1/3rd touching the seat. I'am glad we have S.S. valves now. Now that is far from the most important reasons to have hard seats.(((( Oh ya, before I forget, if you have a machinist that says hard seats are a waste of money, or they fall out, or come loose, FIND A DIFFERENT MACHINIST ))) We have had many T, A, B engines, that were rebuilt by other shops that were local to the customer. The problems were the same on those particular engines, over heating, and excessive vibration. First the vibration, everybody seams to want there Engine to run good, and idle smooth, ok balance is good on parts, but what about the valve train. I don't care what you do for balancing parts, if you use a cam that is wore out for lobe trueness, if your valves are ground down in the block, each cylinder will get a different charge of gas and there is no way the motor can be expected to run smooth, or HAVE THE POWER IT SHOULD, Now the over heating problems, there are many thing that get blamed for the Ford, and other engines running to hot, Raditor, could be, check it. rust in the block, could be, check it, water pump, could be , check it, and my VERY FAVORITE PET PEEVE, oh I bored my Model A to .125, and it over heats, so you can't bore that big without over heating!!!! Well we pull the head off and the tops of the valves are even with the top of the block. Boys, a motor can't cool it self, if it can't get rid of its hot burnt gases, and bring in a new fresh, cool charge of gas, thanks Herm.

sonny30coupe · 07-03-2010, 08:00 PM

I beleive the ethyl was higher octane, like our premium today. We just dont call it ethyl anymore.

Model A Speedster · 07-03-2010, 09:42 PM

If you're going to run your engine hard - flat out wide open, then leaded fuel MIGHT be to your advantage. Otherwise, your engine should run fine on today's gasoline, which is a much finer product than was available in the Model A days. Just in case you are feeling guilty about not lubricating your valve train, then add about a half cup kerosene every third or fourth tankful. Not only will you think your car is running better, it will smell funny, too!

Mike V. Florida · 07-03-2010, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonny30coupe

I beleive the ethyl was higher octane, like our premium today. We just dont call it ethyl anymore.

Here's my car, if you run out of gas use Ethyl, if Ethyl can't do it, use Mabel.

40 Deluxe · 07-04-2010, 01:27 AM

Reply to MrTube on 'Ethyl' gasoline: First, it was not alcohol. It was leaded gasoline. For many years, primarily the '50's and '50's, gas stations had two grades of gas, 'regular' and 'premium'; also called 'hi-test' or 'Ethyl'. Ethyl Corporation was the name of the compny that produced the lead in the gas and pumps often had the Ethyl decal on them. Both regular and premium contained lead, with more of it in premium to raise the octane. There was not any alcohol in gas then. Cheaper cars, lke Ford, Chev and Plymouth with sixes and 2 bbl. V8's used regular and their 4 bbls. with higher compression) premium. High priced cars like Cadillac, Lincoln, Imperial, etc. all took premium, which was about 3-4 cents a gallon higher. This 'tetraethyl lead' (see where the term Ethyl came from?) would build up deposits on the spark plugs and in the combustion chambers during slow speed around-town driving, which led to the common practice of going out on the highway and 'blowing the cobs out'.

07-01-2010, 06:39 PM	#21
allen Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: petal mississippi Posts: 550	Re: Lead or no lead, that is the question... larry if you read the post this is what I'm saying, and yes i do remember unleaded gas, this is the very point i was trying to make that they added lead to gas it was not like stp read the post Last edited by allen; 07-01-2010 at 06:40 PM. Reason: name

07-01-2010, 08:32 PM	#23
Old182 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Newburgh, NY Posts: 222	Re: Lead or no lead, that is the question... One key point that's not been said is that tetraethyl lead (TEL) was first used in aircraft in 1922. Kettering worked with Midgley on this because a high octane fuel was needed for fighter planes of the era and refining at the time was crappy (i.e. only able to produce relatively low octane gasoline). The first tests used a whopping 16 cc of lead per gallon! Today, 100 low lead aviation gasoline can contain a maximum of 2 mL (approximatley 2g) of TEL, (TEL contains ~40% lead). Recent tests show that about 0.5 mL/gallon TEL will prevent valve seat recession, but Model A engines can't run fast enough or make enough heat to cause the valves to recede. In the 1960s, gasolines could contain over 4 ml/gal, but as emissions laws took over the country, lead was being reduced through the 1970s and 1980s until there was less than 0.10mL/gal by the end. You just weren't told about it.

07-02-2010, 07:53 AM	#24
oldmotorsguy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Crossville, Tennessee Posts: 157	Re: Lead or no lead, that is the question... Pretty decent responses to this lead question, guys. Thanks much. I am now armed to the teeth with answers about lead: the overwhelming consensus is that the Model A engine was designed as an 'unleaded' fuel engine. Now I am just waiting in ambush for the next numb nuts to jerk me around about not having hardened valve seats.

07-02-2010, 03:59 PM	#26
skip Banned Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 408	Re: Lead or no lead, that is the question... Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) That sharp Collie Bark ARF! From a cute blonde and sable rough coat collie. Got him when Logan was four months old. He's now 10 years old. skip and his master.

07-02-2010, 04:30 PM	#27
Old182 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Newburgh, NY Posts: 222	Re: Lead or no lead, that is the question... The engine builders I've talked to say they use inserted seats to build up the seat to its original position in the block. Not because of valve seat recession; the seat gets lower and lower with each valve job - could be quite a few over ~80 years. Now that makes sense.

07-02-2010, 04:53 PM	#28
Ron in Quincy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Quincy, CA. Posts: 1,708	Re: Lead or no lead, that is the question... Most engine builders, if truthful to a customer, will say its a waist of money to install hard seats if the existing seats are OK. Regarding unleaded fuel, I personally never have added a lead subsitute, use it straight out of the pump and have never had a valve problem. I believe during the Model A era most of the regular gasoline was unleaded; with leaded fuel it pays to remove the head occasionally and remove the carbon buildup. Carbon can break off and fall under the valve seat which results with burnt valves, etc. Just my opinion, Ron

07-02-2010, 05:15 PM	#29
cannon Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: macclenny, florida Posts: 71	Re: Lead or no lead, that is the question... as i remember in 1949 working at a mobilgas station, we had two types of gasoline pumps: one was regular-the other was hi-test (ethyl) both had the "contains lead" plate afixed to the pump.... over in a hand crank above ground tank was white gas for your mothers gas iron, or lantern.....

07-03-2010, 06:25 AM	#30
Terry, NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks Co, Pa Posts: 3,740	Re: Lead or no lead, that is the question... If anyone is concerned with not having lead, just go to your local airport get some 100LL (Pssst. the LL means it has lead) aviation gas. You'll pay around $ 5 or more a Gal but you probably pay that much for a little bottle of additive, but you'll be putting a gal of gas in the tank with it. I am a shooter and some one these hippies found out about lead styphnate a few years ago and they wanted to shut ranges down because of it. This fear mongering on the part of the liberals over a substance has got many of us on the edge of our seats. I once met a woman who could "Feel" the asbestos entering her body. The "asbestos" was one steampipe that was fully encapsulated and in a utility closet at the other end of the building. Such is the extent of the effect of this propaganda. The only thing she was feeling were the prickly thorns of her imagination! Terry Last edited by Terry, NJ; 07-03-2010 at 10:23 AM.

07-03-2010, 09:07 AM	#31
skip Banned Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 408	Re: Lead or no lead, that is the question... 100LL at our Door County Cherryland Aeroport is $4.50 a gallon. And the jet fuel is kerosene basically. skip who cuts grass there. So if your house is 1974[?] or newer and more than 6 sq foot is to be 'renovated' say by replacing a window and you can't do it yourself and must find a licensed contractor, that contractor must do two things before he can start. For $350 he must test for lead. And for $350 more he must test for asbestos. That is $700 before that window job can even start. A $35,000 fine if he is caught not doing the two tests.... ...the unlicensed guy working out of the back of his pick-up truck and not doing these tests as long as he's not reported, he can save himself the $35,000 fine and can have that window out and replaced in a couple of hours, technically should but he is not required to do $700 in tests for a stinking $200 window. Thanks to the 'present administration'. If your house is older than 1974 the 'present administration' doesn't care if you eat the paint and smoke the asbestos. Is this assign or what? Just apply common sense. skip. Last edited by skip; 07-03-2010 at 09:20 AM.

07-03-2010, 11:02 AM	#32
Keith True Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Epping N.H. Posts: 2,987	Re: Lead or no lead, that is the question... I worked at an American station in high school and a little while after.Our high test was always unleaded.Never heard of problems,and a lot of people came in just for the 'clean'high test.We had regular leaded,and at the end of the island we had an orphan pump that had a cheapo unleaded regular called Blueboy.We mainly sold that to campers and such,it was known as white gas also.The machine shop I use replaces valve seats as needed,not as an unleaded conversion.He still gets a lot of people insisting they need an unleaded conversion,so if they insist,he just does it rather than taking an hour out of the shop trying to explain why it is not needed.He said he has made a bunch of money doing unleaded conversions on Harleys.Somebody,somewhere,published an article telling of the death and destruction of your engine if you did not have this done.A lot of people read it,and he said he carved out perfectly good hard seats and replaced them with some more of the same.He said those guys came in in droves,and trying to explain to most they were already equipped with the hard seats was like talking to the wall.He took their money,did the work,and they went home with nothing better than they brought in.But they were happy.

07-03-2010, 01:22 PM	#33
Kohnke Rebabbitting Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: 60615,330th Ave.,Clare, Iowa, 50524 Posts: 1,457	Re: Lead or no lead, that is the question... We started using hard seats about 1970-72 in all engines, after we found out 3 to 6 months of alot of driving would get you a burnt poor quality valve, and when the valve burns, it would eat at the seat in short order. With hard seats all you would have to do is replace the valve, and not even have to grind the seat, just hand lap the new Poor Quality valve to make sure that it did seat properly, and that a valve face divided evenly into 1/3rd's, and the middle 1/3rd touching the seat. I'am glad we have S.S. valves now. Now that is far from the most important reasons to have hard seats.(((( Oh ya, before I forget, if you have a machinist that says hard seats are a waste of money, or they fall out, or come loose, FIND A DIFFERENT MACHINIST ))) We have had many T, A, B engines, that were rebuilt by other shops that were local to the customer. The problems were the same on those particular engines, over heating, and excessive vibration. First the vibration, everybody seams to want there Engine to run good, and idle smooth, ok balance is good on parts, but what about the valve train. I don't care what you do for balancing parts, if you use a cam that is wore out for lobe trueness, if your valves are ground down in the block, each cylinder will get a different charge of gas and there is no way the motor can be expected to run smooth, or HAVE THE POWER IT SHOULD, Now the over heating problems, there are many thing that get blamed for the Ford, and other engines running to hot, Raditor, could be, check it. rust in the block, could be, check it, water pump, could be , check it, and my VERY FAVORITE PET PEEVE, oh I bored my Model A to .125, and it over heats, so you can't bore that big without over heating!!!! Well we pull the head off and the tops of the valves are even with the top of the block. Boys, a motor can't cool it self, if it can't get rid of its hot burnt gases, and bring in a new fresh, cool charge of gas, thanks Herm.

07-03-2010, 08:00 PM	#34
sonny30coupe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Kansas City KS Posts: 255	Re: Lead or no lead, that is the question... I beleive the ethyl was higher octane, like our premium today. We just dont call it ethyl anymore.

07-03-2010, 09:42 PM	#35
Model A Speedster Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mansfield, Ohio Posts: 91	Re: Lead or no lead, that is the question... If you're going to run your engine hard - flat out wide open, then leaded fuel MIGHT be to your advantage. Otherwise, your engine should run fine on today's gasoline, which is a much finer product than was available in the Model A days. Just in case you are feeling guilty about not lubricating your valve train, then add about a half cup kerosene every third or fourth tankful. Not only will you think your car is running better, it will smell funny, too! __________________ Any car can drip oil, but for a real puddle, it takes a Model A.

07-04-2010, 01:27 AM	#37
40 Deluxe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: now Kuna, Idaho Posts: 3,779	Re: Lead or no lead, that is the question... Reply to MrTube on 'Ethyl' gasoline: First, it was not alcohol. It was leaded gasoline. For many years, primarily the '50's and '50's, gas stations had two grades of gas, 'regular' and 'premium'; also called 'hi-test' or 'Ethyl'. Ethyl Corporation was the name of the compny that produced the lead in the gas and pumps often had the Ethyl decal on them. Both regular and premium contained lead, with more of it in premium to raise the octane. There was not any alcohol in gas then. Cheaper cars, lke Ford, Chev and Plymouth with sixes and 2 bbl. V8's used regular and their 4 bbls. with higher compression) premium. High priced cars like Cadillac, Lincoln, Imperial, etc. all took premium, which was about 3-4 cents a gallon higher. This 'tetraethyl lead' (see where the term Ethyl came from?) would build up deposits on the spark plugs and in the combustion chambers during slow speed around-town driving, which led to the common practice of going out on the highway and 'blowing the cobs out'.