frame repair

[larry harding]

hi guys, haven't been on here for a while, but at 77 i'm starting a new project (there may be some mental issues involved) i just can't sit still. i recently purchased a rolling (Sort of) chassis with a good sounding engine/ tranny, and rear end. the right frame rail is very pitted. i' am looking at ways to repair this rather than search for another frame. what i'm considering is cutting out the bad section and welding in 1/8x2 hot rolled flat bar or cut a section from another frame that's not usable. i heard somewhere that the frames are made from a good grade of steel and may not be compatable with regular hot roll. i have mig , stick and tig welding equipment, what is thebest way to go. suggestions please!

[katy]

Originally Posted by larry harding

cut a section from another frame that's not usable.

That's the route I would go.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by larry harding

hi guys, haven't been on here for a while, but at 77 i'm starting a new project (there may be some mental issues involved) i just can't sit still. i recently purchased a rolling (Sort of) chassis with a good sounding engine/ tranny, and rear end. the right frame rail is very pitted. i' am looking at ways to repair this rather than search for another frame. what i'm considering is cutting out the bad section and welding in 1/8x2 hot rolled flat bar or cut a section from another frame that's not usable. i heard somewhere that the frames are made from a good grade of steel and may not be compatable with regular hot roll. i have mig , stick and tig welding equipment, what is thebest way to go. suggestions please!

Yeah Larry, ...while I would not use hot rolled anyway (-use cold rolled instead), much of what you heard was really just nonsense. I am not where I can look at my print, but Ford's engineers only specified a trace amount of Vanadium anyway. Yes, likely enough for Ford to be able to use it successfully in advertising, but not really enough to do any corrosion fighting or structural strengthening.

Before I were to tell you to graft in a piece, I would want to know if the metal is actually thinner overall and not just have pitting. In my experiences, we have found that pitting is usually quicker to repair by MIG welding in the low spots and then metalfinishing smooth.

[larry harding]

a lot of it is pitting,, but is deep and all the way thru in a couple of places. i am a little concerned about fracturing in the really bad spots. i don't know where i would obtain 1/8 flat bar in cold rolled, the local fab shop carries mostly hot rolled. there may be a bad frame nearby i could cut a piece out of. mig and grind would suit me in the lpits but nor for the really week part.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by larry harding

a lot of it is pitting,, but is deep and all the way thru in a couple of places. i am a little concerned about fracturing in the really bad spots. i don't know where i would obtain 1/8 flat bar in cold rolled, the local fab shop carries mostly hot rolled. there may be a bad frame nearby i could cut a piece out of. mig and grind would suit me in the lpits but nor for the really week part.

The issue is, the frame is not 1/8th (-0.125") thick. It is 8 Gauge metal which is about 0.170" inch thick, -or nearly 50 thousandth thicker. You can mail-order in pieces of 8 Gauge Cold Rolled sheeting and cut it down to the size you need, but I would not use 1/8th inch metal.

[rotorwrench]

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Ford purchased a complete rolling mill company in Buffalo and shipped all the equipment to the Rouge to set up for rolling their own steel. For steel to be drawn, it has to be processed to allow enough softness to get good form from it. The steel for the frame is likely of a cold rolled nature in order to form it. Hot rolled steel is too hard to form easily and is considered heavy structural steel. The strength in a cold rolled steel comes from the forming process that also hardens it (work hardening). The thickness is what gives it it's strength plus moderate flexibility. I'm not sure what the actual thickness is on average but it is near 1/8" in the places I've worked on it. I'll check it again but it doesn't seem to be .1644 which is 8 gauge on the old American Revised Standard. I've noticed that Ford went by fractions more than by gauges or decimal measurements. 5/32" is close to 8 gauge. I was wondering if it's on the old Ford prints?

[WHN]

Do yourself and whoever is the new owner years from now a favor.

Get a new frame!

This is one of the reasons I would not purchase another Model A, most of what’s left is junk.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by WHN

Do yourself and whoever is the new owner years from now a favor.

Get a new frame!

This is one of the reasons I would not purchase another Model A, most of what’s left is junk.

I do agree with you on this. It is unfortunate how many restorers have cut corners in the past that has often given the Model-A a bad reputation about how they are unreliable, and how mechanical brakes won't stop, or how don't steer well, ...or fill in the blank. Giving credit to Larry, he is very likely to be able to do the job correctly, using proper welding methods on proper dimensional materials however we all need to think this thru a little bit because it does affect the entire Model-A hobby, ...both psychologically and financially.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I do agree with you on this. It is unfortunate how many restorers have cut corners in the past that has often given the Model-A a bad reputation about how they are unreliable, and how mechanical brakes won't stop, or how don't steer well, ...or fill in the blank. Giving credit to Larry, he is very likely to be able to do the job correctly, using proper welding methods on proper dimensional materials however we all need to think this thru a little bit because it does affect the entire Model-A hobby, ...both psychologically and financially.

My 1931 Town Sedan was "professionally restored" in the mid-80s, and I bought it last summer from the person who purchased it from the restorer. The more I work on it the more shortcuts, cut corners and just plain bad work I'm finding. Most recent downright scary one - I pulled the steering column and box because I needed to replace the notch plate (old one was worn smooth, no autopilot available) and in the process decided to do a rehab on the steering box. It had a tight spot which led me to think maybe the sector needed to be centered, but before I did that I tore it down to check wear on the sector and worm gears. I wasn't too surprised to find a bunch of grease in the steering box (wrong, but not uncommon), but I also pulled out what appears to be a 5/32" bearing ball. If that had gotten into the gears it would have jammed the steering, and that gave me a real pucker. There's absolutely no reason that should have been in there, there are no ball bearings anywhere in the steering. And, the previous restorer had peened the centering eccentric rivet so hard that it was frozen. Just plain shoddy work.

Worm and sector had a bit of wear, but some work with a stone cleaned them up sufficiently to reuse. It steers like butter now adjusted (and lubed with 600W) properly, and the "recycled" notch plate I got from Bert's works great.

JayJay

[Joe K]

In general, a weld repair to a frame has to consider "location location location."

Defects "end of span" (i.e. near the front or rear crossmember) are more favorable for repair than "mid span" (near or associated with the center crossmember. )

Defects "mid web" are more repairable than defects top or bottom (i.e. flange)

It certainly is possible to "sister" a weak or thin spot - and may result in a frame STRONGER than the original.

A Model AA frame of my experience would be an example of this: the frame apparently having been "bent" by overloading, and then straightened and sistered, with 3/8" plate which filled the space between flanges a foot and half on either side of the rear axle spring fulcrum. I bought the vehicle for parts and then scrapped the frame - but whoever did that did a REAL nice job of fixing it - and now I regret letting it go. Back then an AA frame could be bought at Amherst, NH for $75 - but not as good a shape as this one was.

Many have "boxed" a less than optimum Model A Frame simply as a way of making "something that works" - and I'm not talking "rodding." The difficulties in boxing a frame for the Model A come primarily on the center crossmember - leave it original and work around it, or take it out and weld it to the boxing after.

It is entirely up to you and your situation where you want to go with this. It is possible to repair a frame by "fill welding." Or even going the next step. But better frames may be only $300 away.

For $100 I recently bought a most excellent frame minus the center cross member (it was headed to a rod before someone decided to buy a rod frame all prepared.) I have since found a center cross member on ebay for cheap money and am in the process of preparing the rivet "backers" to reinstall. As there is some work and material and even tooling in this process, about now I'm wondering about that $400 frame on Facebook Marketplace - and could he be talked down to $300?

I'll probably stick with the $100 (plus) frame.

Joe K

[Rodrelic]

I have a right side rail for repair of a frame that was stored in the mud on that side. A challenge to rivet back in but… I recall it was pretty good. Since the left side has the vehicle has your ID numbers, I would do it.I am in north florida this time of year.

[BAL1962]

Larry, you didn't say what year frame your working with. I have a 1930 frame that the crossmembers are not that great but the rails seem to be good. I would let it go for free if it would help you out. I'm just outside of Front Royal Va. It may be worth your drive.

[larry harding]

thanks! i'm looking into some more local options, if nothing pans out i may be in touch. repairing the frame looks like a big job. a local guy offered me a frame that will need some work, but is proibably better than what i have got.

[larry harding]

last sat. i picked up a frame for $100.00 that is better than any thing i have found. it has been blasted, primed and painted at some time in the past then let go. there is some surface rust in places that have been scratched or didn't cover good. it will be an easy blast, and needs a front cross member(which i have) riveted in., and some other minor work. i am confident this one will be good.