The Ford Barn

stolw · 12-01-2020, 08:22 AM

I haven't had the car long, but there was a lot of play in the steering box. I tried adjusting it which helped but it still feels dangerous (about 15 degrees of movement in steering wheel before the slack was taken up)

I have now taken it off a pulled it apart and there is a small amount of wear but it doesn't look bad to me; or is it? I'm now thinking it has just been adjusted wrong?

Mister Moose · 12-01-2020, 09:37 AM

It's not just the sector teeth to worm gear wear. It's the sector shaft bushings, pitman arm to sector shaft tightness, drag link movement. It's the whole assembly.

Since it's all out of the car, I would recommend putting it back together on the bench. Place the gear in a vise and adjust everything. Then see how much play you have and where.

Is that a grease zirc in your sector shaft housing? Haven't heard of that one.

Look on your frame for signs of movement or mounting hole elongation as well.

Les Andrews book and Bratton's CD on steering are both very good, I used and recommend both. The printed diagrams and explanation is one thing you need, and the video demonstration shows each adjustment being performed with an explanation of what "just enough" looks like, something the text just doesn't do. There's a few videos on youtube as well.

As of 3 weeks ago there were no new sector shafts to be had. No word on when they would be available. There is wear on your sector teeth, but you're going to have to live with that for now. My car got as bad as 60 degrees slop at the wheel, and I was down to just driving it to exercise it, not really go anywhere. I'm now down to 3/4 inch play at the rim using the old sector and worm. but new sector housing and needle bearings, new pitman arm, new bolts all around.

Kurt in NJ · 12-01-2020, 10:29 AM

how does the upper worm bearing surface look, the lower one looks a little rough.
The first step in adjusting is to get the worm turning smoothly in it's bearings without free play or excessive preload.

Patrick L. · 12-01-2020, 10:49 AM

How did you try to adjust it ?
There are 4 which need to done in the proper order.

katy · 12-01-2020, 12:05 PM

Quote:

it still feels dangerous (about 15 degrees of movement in steering wheel before the slack was taken up)

Having driven numerous Model Ts and Model As when I was a teenager plus over the years a lot of other old cars that had been used and abused, I wouldn't be concerned about the steering wheel having only 15° of free play in it.

stolw · 12-01-2020, 12:11 PM

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Thanks for the help - I will re-assemble it and go through the adjustments. When I took it off I didn't give the steering wheel end a second look - I should have - It has no nut - Just a bit of braising!

alexiskai · 12-01-2020, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stolw

When I took it off I didn't give the steering wheel end a second look - I should have - It has no nut - Just a bit of braising!

Mmm, braised steering wheel end in a nice 600W oil and garnished with quadrant screws is delicious on a cold winter night.

stolw · 12-01-2020, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katy

Having driven numerous Model Ts and Model As when I was a teenager plus over the years a lot of other old cars that had been used and abused, I wouldn't be concerned about the steering wheel having only 15° of free play in it.

Maybe I am being too sensitive, but It does feel dangerous and the roads in the UK are a lot smaller than the US

stolw · 12-01-2020, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexiskai

Mmm, braised steering wheel end in a nice 600W oil and garnished with quadrant screws is delicious on a cold winter night.

Yep! although I couldn't see too much oil, just a sort of black sludge. . .

stolw · 12-01-2020, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

how does the upper worm bearing surface look, the lower one looks a little rough.
The first step in adjusting is to get the worm turning smoothly in it's bearings without free play or excessive preload.

The top one looks about the same. You are right - it doesn't turn smoothly currently so I will start there

Mister Moose · 12-01-2020, 01:24 PM

Take a close look at your sector shaft bushings also.

Be careful removing the worm and putting it back on especially. Not a simple task. You're in a box there with the wheel brazed onto the shaft, the upper bearing can't be replaced without removing the worm and there's not much sense in a new worm if you can't get a new sector shaft.

What's the full inscription carved into the wheel? Is that a common thing to do? My wheel has a prior owners name carved into it, always wondered how many did that back in the day.

I would clean everything up, and reassemble on the bench with a light lube not worrying about gaskets. Feel the wheel shaft bearings, adjust the three main adjustments (2 end play and sector mesh) put a vise grip on the sector shaft and see what you get for bearing rumble and total play. Look closely where the sector exits the housing as you rock the shaft back and forth with the vise grips while the gearcase is in a vise. If you see axial movement (and you will) then replace the sector bushings, those are relatively easy. (You can consider having a machine shop dress the sector shaft and then hone the bushings to match, but only if the teeth - worm are decent enough to live with.) Now try the play fully assembled and adjusted with new sector bushings. If there's too much play, or the worm bearings have too much rumble, you're into a total rebuild at a time when parts are tough to come by. Then it's either wait or scrounge.

On the final assembly pay attention to cleanliness and proper seals or the new design end plate. Decide on what lube you're going to run, a few choices there.

The brazed wheel could give you some trouble at the machine shop if it gets in the way of their press.

stolw · 12-01-2020, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Moose

Take a close look at your sector shaft bushings also.

Be careful removing the worm and putting it back on especially. Not a simple task. You're in a box there with the wheel brazed onto the shaft, the upper bearing can't be replaced without removing the worm and there's not much sense in a new worm if you can't get a new sector shaft.

What's the full inscription carved into the wheel? Is that a common thing to do? My wheel has a prior owners name carved into it, always wondered how many did that back in the day.

I would clean everything up, and reassemble on the bench with a light lube not worrying about gaskets. Feel the wheel shaft bearings, adjust the three main adjustments (2 end play and sector mesh) put a vise grip on the sector shaft and see what you get for bearing rumble and total play. Look closely where the sector exits the housing as you rock the shaft back and forth with the vise grips while the gearcase is in a vise. If you see axial movement (and you will) then replace the sector bushings, those are relatively easy. (You can consider having a machine shop dress the sector shaft and then hone the bushings to match, but only if the teeth - worm are decent enough to live with.) Now try the play fully assembled and adjusted with new sector bushings. If there's too much play, or the worm bearings have too much rumble, you're into a total rebuild at a time when parts are tough to come by. Then it's either wait or scrounge.

On the final assembly pay attention to cleanliness and proper seals or the new design end plate. Decide on what lube you're going to run, a few choices there.

The brazed wheel could give you some trouble at the machine shop if it gets in the way of their press.

Thank you for the information from everyone - Most helpful - I will do as advised. I realize that it's never going to be like a modern car but I'm sure it can be much improved to how it is currently

GRutter · 12-01-2020, 05:52 PM

What I am looking at appears to be:

1. Steering shaft that is broken off at the top, hence no nut and the shaft brazed to the steering wheel.
2. The worm bearing surface is pitted and not usable.
3. The sector gears show significant wear. I doubt that they could be properly meshed with the worm gear.
4. Although not pictured, I would assume, looking at the wear on all contact/bearing surfaces that the sector shaft & sector bushings are also worn.

My recommendation would be to replace the steering shaft with worm installed (available from our vendors), replace upper and lower bearing races, install new roller bearings, replace the sector shaft and sector housing bushings.

It doesn't make sense to take the steering box apart and not fix what is obviously worn out. And I agree with the original poster that excessive steering play is dangerous.

I would also look at the remainder of the front-end & steering components: Spindle play, drag link, tie rod, spring shackles etc to restore vehicle control and safety.

Mister Moose · 12-01-2020, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRutter

replace the sector shaft

They are not currently available. I called a dozen vendors. The only source is in Brazil, and there is no info available as to when they will go back into production. I re-used my mildly worn sector shaft rather than let the car sit for an undetermined amount of time.

That's why I said re-assemble with new sector bushings and adjust as best you can and see if you can live with it. Worms are available, and you can go that route without a new sector shaft, but that's another compromise. With his worn sector and brazed wheel combo, there's lots of complications to getting a normal rebuild done.

It's clear his sector teeth haven't bottomed out on the worm, right? Why not give it a try?

stolw · 12-02-2020, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Moose

They are not currently available. I called a dozen vendors. The only source is in Brazil, and there is no info available as to when they will go back into production. I re-used my mildly worn sector shaft rather than let the car sit for an undetermined amount of time.

That's why I said re-assemble with new sector bushings and adjust as best you can and see if you can live with it. Worms are available, and you can go that route without a new sector shaft, but that's another compromise. With his worn sector and brazed wheel combo, there's lots of complications to getting a normal rebuild done.

It's clear his sector teeth haven't bottomed out on the worm, right? Why not give it a try?

I think that's what i'm going to do - I have now removed the steering wheel so will need to sort that out aswell - It was probably safe with being braised but i'd rather have it with a nut on it.

Brentwood Bob · 12-02-2020, 01:07 PM

There is a repair for the the steering shaft where the damaged end is threaded to accept a bolt that has been drilled thru the center to accept the horn rod.
See the restorer, Jan/February 2001, p18-19.
I believe the parts houses sell the threaded insert instead of a machined bolt.

GRutter · 12-02-2020, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brentwood Bob

There is a repair for the the steering shaft where the damaged end is threaded to accept a bolt that has been drilled thru the center to accept the horn rod.
See the restorer, Jan/February 2001, p18-19.
I believe the parts houses sell the threaded insert instead of a machined bolt.

That is true, but with the worm gear bearing surfaces in rough shape and with the amount of wear on those components, it would likely be a lot easier to get a new shaft with worm already attached from one of our vendors.

Brentwood Bob · 12-02-2020, 10:50 PM

May be difficult for him to order the shaft with a new worm and will have to make do.
Maybe John Carlton could be of assistance.

David R. · 12-04-2020, 07:57 AM

My box was dry and worm bearing races pitted, although worm and sector were not worn badly but sector shaft was egg shaped so I replaced sector, (available then) bushings, bearings and worm. I bought worm only but boy was it a job to get worm off shaft and new one on without distorting that hollow shaft! The worm is a VERY tight press fit and I had to use heat to get the old one off and a little bit of careful heat and a homemade press aperatus with hydraulic jack to get the new one on. We were very afraid of bending the hollow shaft so we used a mandrel inside the tube and used a section of pipe outside packed with sand and slowly pressed the new worm on. Looks like you will need a new shaft anyway so I would go with assembled worm and shaft if available. There are lots of used units around but most will likely be in poor shape also.

12-01-2020, 09:37 AM	#2
Mister Moose Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Hartford area, CT Posts: 374	Re: Steering box Wear It's not just the sector teeth to worm gear wear. It's the sector shaft bushings, pitman arm to sector shaft tightness, drag link movement. It's the whole assembly. Since it's all out of the car, I would recommend putting it back together on the bench. Place the gear in a vise and adjust everything. Then see how much play you have and where. Is that a grease zirc in your sector shaft housing? Haven't heard of that one. Look on your frame for signs of movement or mounting hole elongation as well. Les Andrews book and Bratton's CD on steering are both very good, I used and recommend both. The printed diagrams and explanation is one thing you need, and the video demonstration shows each adjustment being performed with an explanation of what "just enough" looks like, something the text just doesn't do. There's a few videos on youtube as well. As of 3 weeks ago there were no new sector shafts to be had. No word on when they would be available. There is wear on your sector teeth, but you're going to have to live with that for now. My car got as bad as 60 degrees slop at the wheel, and I was down to just driving it to exercise it, not really go anywhere. I'm now down to 3/4 inch play at the rim using the old sector and worm. but new sector housing and needle bearings, new pitman arm, new bolts all around. Last edited by Mister Moose; 12-01-2020 at 09:46 AM.

12-01-2020, 10:29 AM	#3
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,157	Re: Steering box Wear how does the upper worm bearing surface look, the lower one looks a little rough. The first step in adjusting is to get the worm turning smoothly in it's bearings without free play or excessive preload.

12-01-2020, 10:49 AM	#4
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Steering box Wear How did you try to adjust it ? There are 4 which need to done in the proper order.

12-01-2020, 01:24 PM	#11
Mister Moose Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Hartford area, CT Posts: 374	Re: Steering box Wear Take a close look at your sector shaft bushings also. Be careful removing the worm and putting it back on especially. Not a simple task. You're in a box there with the wheel brazed onto the shaft, the upper bearing can't be replaced without removing the worm and there's not much sense in a new worm if you can't get a new sector shaft. What's the full inscription carved into the wheel? Is that a common thing to do? My wheel has a prior owners name carved into it, always wondered how many did that back in the day. I would clean everything up, and reassemble on the bench with a light lube not worrying about gaskets. Feel the wheel shaft bearings, adjust the three main adjustments (2 end play and sector mesh) put a vise grip on the sector shaft and see what you get for bearing rumble and total play. Look closely where the sector exits the housing as you rock the shaft back and forth with the vise grips while the gearcase is in a vise. If you see axial movement (and you will) then replace the sector bushings, those are relatively easy. (You can consider having a machine shop dress the sector shaft and then hone the bushings to match, but only if the teeth - worm are decent enough to live with.) Now try the play fully assembled and adjusted with new sector bushings. If there's too much play, or the worm bearings have too much rumble, you're into a total rebuild at a time when parts are tough to come by. Then it's either wait or scrounge. On the final assembly pay attention to cleanliness and proper seals or the new design end plate. Decide on what lube you're going to run, a few choices there. The brazed wheel could give you some trouble at the machine shop if it gets in the way of their press.

12-01-2020, 05:52 PM	#13
GRutter Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Mint Hill, North Carolina Posts: 386	Re: Steering box Wear What I am looking at appears to be: 1. Steering shaft that is broken off at the top, hence no nut and the shaft brazed to the steering wheel. 2. The worm bearing surface is pitted and not usable. 3. The sector gears show significant wear. I doubt that they could be properly meshed with the worm gear. 4. Although not pictured, I would assume, looking at the wear on all contact/bearing surfaces that the sector shaft & sector bushings are also worn. My recommendation would be to replace the steering shaft with worm installed (available from our vendors), replace upper and lower bearing races, install new roller bearings, replace the sector shaft and sector housing bushings. It doesn't make sense to take the steering box apart and not fix what is obviously worn out. And I agree with the original poster that excessive steering play is dangerous. I would also look at the remainder of the front-end & steering components: Spindle play, drag link, tie rod, spring shackles etc to restore vehicle control and safety.

12-02-2020, 01:07 PM	#16
Brentwood Bob Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: brentwood, ca Posts: 4,241	Re: Steering box Wear There is a repair for the the steering shaft where the damaged end is threaded to accept a bolt that has been drilled thru the center to accept the horn rod. See the restorer, Jan/February 2001, p18-19. I believe the parts houses sell the threaded insert instead of a machined bolt. Last edited by Brentwood Bob; 12-02-2020 at 03:53 PM.

12-02-2020, 10:50 PM	#18
Brentwood Bob Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: brentwood, ca Posts: 4,241	Re: Steering box Wear May be difficult for him to order the shaft with a new worm and will have to make do. Maybe John Carlton could be of assistance.

12-04-2020, 07:57 AM	#19
David R. Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: West Virginia Posts: 430	Re: Steering box Wear My box was dry and worm bearing races pitted, although worm and sector were not worn badly but sector shaft was egg shaped so I replaced sector, (available then) bushings, bearings and worm. I bought worm only but boy was it a job to get worm off shaft and new one on without distorting that hollow shaft! The worm is a VERY tight press fit and I had to use heat to get the old one off and a little bit of careful heat and a homemade press aperatus with hydraulic jack to get the new one on. We were very afraid of bending the hollow shaft so we used a mandrel inside the tube and used a section of pipe outside packed with sand and slowly pressed the new worm on. Looks like you will need a new shaft anyway so I would go with assembled worm and shaft if available. There are lots of used units around but most will likely be in poor shape also.