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Old 11-15-2010, 02:06 PM   #1
D-Russ
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Default Need Help Identifying 30s Ford Door Dove Tails

When I bought my Model A Vicky body, it didn't come with most of the door hardware. You would think I could just call up Mac's or someplace similar and buy the pieces I needed. But the problem is the aftermarket doesn't make a lot of Victoria specific parts, and I don't have any of the original pieces to match to.

I've purchased a number of door parts from various Model A body styles just from looking at the pictures in the catalogs. This method was working fine until I got to the dove tails.

Here's a picture of the male and female pieces I have currently.




The problem is that the male piece seems to be too thick/fat to fit into the female piece that screws to the jamb. When I remove the male piece, the door closes and latches great, but with the male piece installed on the door, the door won't close at all.

Using my "look at the picture and ignore the actual application" method, I discovered that there are sizes/thicknesses of male dove tails. Here's a pic from a Dick Spadaro flier. It looks like the one on the left is thinner than what I have, which may work, but it is just a drawing.



Here's my question: Can anyone suggest the correct male dove tail piece to fit into the female piece I have pictured above. I'll need the exact year and application.

Thanks!
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Old 11-15-2010, 02:26 PM   #2
J Franklin
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Default Re: Need Help Identifying 30s Ford Door Dove Tails

I think you are missing a metal piece (door guide clip) in the pillar bracket that the dovetail slides into. it usually comes in the rebuilding kits and decreases the friction needed to close the door. Brattons should have the dovetail sets for your Victoria they are part #A 47161 C & D, and A 47411

Last edited by J Franklin; 11-15-2010 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 11-15-2010, 02:36 PM   #3
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Default Re: Need Help Identifying 30s Ford Door Dove Tails

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I think you are missing a metal piece (door guide clip) in the pillar bracket that the dovetail slides into. it usually comes in the rebuilding kits and decreases the friction needed to close the door.
Do you have a photo of what you're talking about, or can you direct me to the piece in an online catalog? Thanks.

Sorry, we were typing at the same time. I see there's now a part number. I'll check it out. Thanks again.
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Old 11-15-2010, 02:53 PM   #4
Kevin in NJ
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Default Re: Need Help Identifying 30s Ford Door Dove Tails

To answer your question I believe you will need to reference the body book parts list for the victoria.

You are going to have to check the books on what are the correct part number male dovetails. You will find they make offset up and down and I think center male dove tails. Normally there will be one of each offset, one for each door- at least that is how it is done on the 68C.

A quick note on function. The dovetail is there to just hold the door in a vertical position. If everything is set up right they belt line on the door will stay lined up with the body belt line. If you are unsure of which is the correct dovetail, it becomes painfully obvious when you screw the dovetail on and try to shut the door.

All slants used the new style female dovetails that had the diecast sliders in them. I believe on the fordors they were spot welded to the inside of the post. I know the 68C and the 400A screwed them to the wood in the door post and I believe the vicky was the same.

The reproduction female dove tails are not right as you get them. Depending on the vintage they will hurt your male dovetail and not allow your door to close. As far as I am aware there are two reproductions. Bert's had a guy make some and A&L now makes them.
Both reproductions were using the wrong springs. The slider MUST be able to slide in and out with moderate finger pressure. They uses springs that were too strong and the sliders barely moved. A&L recently restored a slant and found the doors would not close right and remembered some guy telling him the springs were wrong. He put in lighter springs and the doors started working. My guess is if you bought the A&L kind they will set you up with the proper springs.

When I did mine I got the type made by the Berts guy. The back part was just not correctly formed and could never allow the sliders to move properly. They taper narrow at the back if I remember correctly. The sliders were also junk. The face plate was almost exact. Except the lip around the edges was too high and would not allow it set in properly. This can affect door gap. I put them on a mill and took off the small amount needed to get them to sit right. The A&L product has the same problem. I used the original back sides with cut down NOS V8 sliders and original springs and the Berts face plates cut down. I got and exact fit and function.

A&L I believe uses an exact copy of the sliders and the back is done correct. The 4 holes did not properly line up on the very early production unit I had in my hands. Do not know what they have now. The A&L unit should function properly with the correct springs.

The door kit that Vintique sold a few years ago for the 68C is useless. There was not one part correct for the car.

The screws they sell for the male dovetails are stainless and the oval head is not formed properly. They are too thick. Easy fix. Chuck them up in a drill and file them to the correct profile (sharp edge). Then work them up with finer sandpaper till you are in the 600 grit and then buff them.
The thick head screws with the improper lip of the face can cause an interference problem on some bodies.

One of these days I need to write all this up on my website.
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Old 11-15-2010, 03:04 PM   #5
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Default Re: Need Help Identifying 30s Ford Door Dove Tails

J Franklin,

I've looked through all the door part listings on Bratton's site and didn't come up with any of those part numbers. Any other suggestions?
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Old 11-15-2010, 03:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: Need Help Identifying 30s Ford Door Dove Tails

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A quick note on function. The dovetail is there to just hold the door in a
vertical position. If everything is set up right they belt line on the door will stay lined up with the body belt line. If you are unsure of which is the correct dovetail, it becomes painfully obvious when you screw the dovetail on and try to shut the door.

Yes, I've figured this point out by simply assembling the car. And I want to keep my body lines/beads straight.

All slants used the new style female dovetails that had the diecast sliders in them. I believe on the fordors they were spot welded to the inside of the post. I know the 68C and the 400A screwed them to the wood in the door post and I believe the vicky was the same.

That's correct, on Vicky's the dovetails screwed into the wooden b-pillar.

The reproduction female dove tails are not right as you get them. Depending on the vintage they will hurt your male dovetail and not allow your door to close. As far as I am aware there are two reproductions. Bert's had a guy make some and A&L now makes them.

Both reproductions were using the wrong springs. The slider MUST be able to slide in and out with moderate finger pressure. They uses springs that were too strong and the sliders barely moved. A&L recently restored a slant and found the doors would not close right and remembered some guy telling him the springs were wrong. He put in lighter springs and the doors started working. My guess is if you bought the A&L kind they will set you up with the proper springs.

This seems to be the problem – I can barely move the sliders with a screwdriver with the dovetail clamped in a vise.

When I did mine I got the type made by the Berts guy. The back part was just not correctly formed and could never allow the sliders to move properly. They taper narrow at the back if I remember correctly. The sliders were also junk. The face plate was almost exact. Except the lip around the edges was too high and would not allow it set in properly. This can affect door gap. I put them on a mill and took off the small amount needed to get them to sit right. The A&L product has the same problem. I used the original back sides with cut down NOS V8 sliders and original springs and the Berts face plates cut down. I got and exact fit and function.

A&L I believe uses an exact copy of the sliders and the back is done correct. The 4 holes did not properly line up on the very early production unit I had in my hands. Do not know what they have now. The A&L unit should function properly with the correct springs.

I've never heard of A&L. Can you give me more info on them? I think I need to buy their dovetails with the lighter springs.

Thanks for your help.
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Old 11-15-2010, 03:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: Need Help Identifying 30s Ford Door Dove Tails

Click me for A&L

They do not have a website, call them by phone and make sure they are sending you a pair with the correct springs. The link is to MAFCA list of businesses.
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Old 11-15-2010, 04:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: Need Help Identifying 30s Ford Door Dove Tails

I had that same problem, try installing the right dove tail on left side, and left dove tail on the right side. That worked for me
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Old 11-15-2010, 04:48 PM   #9
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Default Re: Need Help Identifying 30s Ford Door Dove Tails

OK Dave, I just pulled up bratton's online catalog and entered dovetail in the search box. There are photos and descriptions for dovetails for the Victoria coupe. the #'s have changed. Bratton's sells quality parts and answer questions truthfully about their parts.
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Old 11-15-2010, 05:54 PM   #10
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Default Re: Need Help Identifying 30s Ford Door Dove Tails

I believe A&L makes all the dovetails.
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Old 11-15-2010, 06:14 PM   #11
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Default Re: Need Help Identifying 30s Ford Door Dove Tails

Kevin,
thanks for the tips on A&L's sliders. When I did the doors on my 160-A, the only one available was the Vintique kit --- a waste of money. I rolled the originals upside down so the upper, unworn slider became the new lower one. It worked ok, but only because there was not too bad of wear in the first place. It'll be nice to have a good set in there.
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:53 PM   #12
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Default Re: Need Help Identifying 30s Ford Door Dove Tails

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OK Dave, I just pulled up bratton's online catalog and entered dovetail in the search box. There are photos and descriptions for dovetails for the Victoria coupe. the #'s have changed. Bratton's sells quality parts and answer questions truthfully about their parts.
Thank you for checking in to this. The parts shown on the Bratton's site look like exactly what I have now.
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:57 PM   #13
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Default Re: Need Help Identifying 30s Ford Door Dove Tails

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I believe A&L makes all the dovetails.
I spoke to A&L this afternoon and very specifically described the problem I'm having. The guy I spoke to said they were aware of the spring stiffness problem and now manufacture their's with lighter springs. I ordered a set (at about $35 a piece and should have them Thursday or Friday. I'll report back once I install them and try them out.
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Old 11-23-2010, 11:12 AM   #14
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Default Re: Need Help Identifying 30s Ford Door Dove Tails

Well, I got the dovetails from A&L yesterday and on quick inspection, the springs are much lighter and require considerably less effort to compress. When I got home, I promptly installed one to see how it worked and I must say the A&L dovetails completely solved my problem. My door now closes perfectly.
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