Sympathy pains for Old Henry

[41ford1]

My 53 215" six decided to join Old Henry. Recently a nasty knock developed in the bottom end at the front of the engine. So it is time to dive in and see what is up. Getting this far was my Saturday project.



The head was pulled last week and taken to a machine shop. It showed receding seats and loose valve guides. Most likely the cause of intermittent skip/misfire I've been chasing for a while.

The cylinders still look good. Crosshatch pattern is still visible and almost no ridge. Tomorrow I'll get a look at the crank.

[Ross F-1]

Did the 6'ers have hardened seats back then?

[JM 35 Sedan]

Chuck, sorry to hear about this latest problem with the sedan delivery. Keep us posted on what you find wrong with the lower end.

[BILL WZOREK]

Sorry about that & as JM said keep us posted & keep the pictures coming also.

[trainguy]

Chuck,Ah the joys of owning old cars.Phil

[41ford1]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Ross, No hardened seats in this one. So i'm guessing the 215" run didn't.

Phil, That's why we have them. Always fun to be had Fixin' and Drivin'.

[Cecil/WV]

I took a six cyl. from a '53 Ford in the '80's and installed a head from a diesel tractor for a friend and we put it in a Ford Dexta tractor. Everything bolted right on. it ran good for about a week! Then, Phhht! Never looked to see what came apart. As far as I know, it is still sitting in a field.

[chuck stevens]

Chuck, Perfect time to drop in a v8 of some kind. You know me aways gotta mess with them. Good luck with it, yell if you need anything, Chuck S.

PS: FLATHEADS FOR EVER!!

[Vic Piano]

Chuck, I can relate... Been there, done that, several times... Just remember to HAVE FUN

[trainguy]

Originally Posted by chuck stevens

Chuck, Perfect time to drop in a v8 of some kind. You know me aways gotta mess with them. Good luck with it, yell if you need anything, Chuck S.

PS: FLATHEADS FOR EVER!!

Maybe a Cheby

[BILL WZOREK]

Chuck:
If you need a hand Let me know, as you know Grease is my friend.

[George49Ford]

For 41ford1 - Might be apples and oranges here (Ford vs Chebbie) but back in the 80's I had a '66 Chebbie Nova w/ straight six developed a know. After spending a weekend underneath replacing all the rod bearing with no fix it turned out to be a broken tooth the timing gear causing the knocking noise.

[Old Henry]

Thanks for the sympathy.

I'm looking forward to seeing if you have a bearing problem like I have.

Hope you're having fun driving.

[supereal]

We always install hardened seats in rebuilds. Most old engines have had several regrinds of seats, leaving no room for another.

[41ford1]

Tore in to it today. Plastigauged the rods and mains. Both show .002" to .0025". End play is at .008". All bearings and journal surfaces look decent. everything at the crank is at the high end of spec. I don't think any thing here is the source of the knock. Pistons are another story. They are running .010" to .022" smaller than the bores. The bores are good no scores, just what looks like normal wear. Crosshatching is still visible in the ring area. I had change the timing chain and gears in the spring of '12. They look OK. Right now I'm thinking piston slap is the source of the knock. It was the loudest when the engine was fully up to temp.











Guys, I've finally come to the conclusion that this stuff is heavy and I am no longer 16. But that aint gonna stop me!

[George/Maine]

Look at the rings and see if the butt ends are front to back. Some times off location you get piston slap. Also if this is and engine that needs over size valves stems.
I had a 200 6 in a 67 falcon put just new valves and run for years.

[41ford1]

Originally Posted by chuck stevens

Chuck, Perfect time to drop in a v8 of some kind. You know me aways gotta mess with them. Good luck with it, yell if you need anything, Chuck S.

PS: FLATHEADS FOR EVER!!

Originally Posted by trainguy

Maybe a Cheby

Sorry guys. I've grown fond of this Six. Besides, although easiest and probably less expensive a 350/350 power module would take the uniqueness out of this car.

[trainguy]

Chuck,Normally piston slap quiets as the engine warms up due to the alum. Pistons expanding at a faster rate than the cast iron block.wrist pin s do the opposite. Phil

[41ford1]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

Look at the rings and see if the butt ends are front to back. Some times off location you get piston slap. Also if this is and engine that needs over size valves stems.
I had a 200 6 in a 67 falcon put just new valves and run for years.

Thanks for the reminder. There was virtually no lip at the top of the cylinders. The pistons pushed out real easily after cleaning the carbon at the top of the bores.. Cylinders 1, 3 and 6 had broken top compression rings. No. 1 cylinder was the one with .022 piston clearance.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Is the bore over or the piston under in No. 1 cylinder? What does the cylinder wall finish look like in No. 1? How is the fitup of rod bushings to piston pins and pins in pistons? The bearings and journals on crankshaft do look nice in your pictures.

[41ford1]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Is the bore over or the piston under in No. 1 cylinder? What does the cylinder wall finish look like in No. 1? How is the fitup of rod bushings to piston pins and pins in pistons? The bearings and journals on crankshaft do look nice in your pictures.

John, This block was bored .060 over. It is effectively a 223" in a 215" disguise. All the cylinders are looking good. Such that I would just break the glaze. Rod pin bushings and pins are something I need to take a closer look at.
None seemed to have excessive movement.

[JM 35 Sedan]

I was trying to rationalize in my mind how No. 1 cylinder wound up with 0.022" clearance between piston and cylinder wall? If all cylinders are measuring correct diameter for +0.060 overbore how did that piston wear enough to give 0.022 clearance? Or did maybe that piston start out undersize from the begining? Just wondering.

Originally Posted by 41ford1

John, This block was bored .060 over. It is effectively a 223" in a 215" disguise. All the cylinders are looking good. Such that I would just break the glaze. Rod pin bushings and pins are something I need to take a closer look at.
None seemed to have excessive movement.

[Tinker]

I always consider 1 thousands at the bottom of the piston bore a decent runner. Hey If your looking for a set of nos barker high lifts for your exhaust rockers send me a pm.

Great wagon by the way.

[trainguy]

Chuck are you measuring the piston across the skirts?.022 is way to much clearance !

[41ford1]

Originally Posted by trainguy

Chuck are you measuring the piston across the skirts?.022 is way to much clearance !

At the skirt area. I somehow reset zero when I measured the pistons yesterday. Rechecked bores and pistons today. All is good. Rechecked the pin play. No 2 seems to be the source of the knock. The big end moves about 1/4".

As far as metal expansion rates, I do know this. That bit of info should have bubbled to the top when I was thinking of piston slap getting worse when hot.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Glad things seem to be a lot better than they might be, Chuck - you might make that time frame we spoke of! Keep at it .....

[Mart]

1/4"?? Wow. That's what's a knockin' all right.

Mart.

[trainguy]

1/4"side play in just one rod,wow,how is that possible without major wear or bad machining on the crank cheeks..This engine ran fine for years.How much side play in the other rods.I understand what you are saying,it rocks side to side 1/4"! I think you have found the problem.

[George/Maine]

My guess the rod got bent when in stalling piston. If you had another engine for a piston and rod would get you going.

[41ford1]

Yup, if held at the center of the pin it rocks from side to side. The rod looks straight. The small rod end bushing is worn. The block, head, crank and the piston & rod assemblies are at the machine shop. This six is down for a complete rebuild. The condition of the head and rings dictate that it is time. Hopefully there are no fatal cracks that show up.

[41ford1]

It is a bit surprising this engine ran as good as it did until the knock showed up. The head work is in progress. Hardened seats, valve guides are on the list for that. I found out today that the block needs a sleeve. One cylinder was cracked. When all is done it will be a 227".

[41ford1]

Update:
The machine shop needed two weeks to do the work and get the required parts.
The crack in #3 was circumferential near the top of the cylinder. It was low enough to catch the top comp ring. That cylinder is getting a sleeve. I will know today if I can get it back this week.
In the mean time I cleaned the parts I have in prep for paint. Forum member Tinker sold me a set of Barker High lift rockers. Those are installed on the rocker shaft now.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Thanks for keeping us posted Chuck. Sounds like progress is being made.

[41ford1]

Got it back from machining. It's now is a 226" OHV. Started the reassemby process. This should be a great runner.

BTW. Ol Ron knows his stuff! Hastings rings break in procedure on the box. " Tune engine to manufacturers specifications. Test run vehicle at 35MPH and accelerate at full throttle to from 35 to 55MPH. Repeat at least 10 times avoiding kick down on automatic transmission equipped vehicles. Cars may be driven normally after this although sustained high speed should be avoided. Trucks and tractors should be broken in on light duty if possible. Avoid lugging engine."

[Cecil/WV]

That's the same instructions Hastings put out 45 years ago. Good to see your progress.

[bobH]

Hastings... 'rebore-on-the-run'. Some of us here are surely old enough to remember.

[Old Henry]

41ford1, glad to see your progress. I'm just a step ahead of you. Just put the engine back in on Friday. Hope to have it back on the road tomorrow or the next day.

[41ford1]

Finished the install today. Ran it long enough to warm it up. Set the timing and checked for leaks. It sounds good. Will do some break in runs tomorrow as it is raining hard today.

[Old Henry]

Hope yours ends up better than mine did. (See my sad story here: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152238)

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by 41ford1

Finished the install today. Ran it long enough to warm it up. Set the timing and checked for leaks. It sounds good. Will do some break in runs tomorrow as it is raining hard today.

Looking very good Chuck!! You do nice work!!

[41ford1]

Originally Posted by trainguy

1/4"side play in just one rod,wow,how is that possible without major wear or bad machining on the crank cheeks..This engine ran fine for years.How much side play in the other rods.I understand what you are saying,it rocks side to side 1/4"! I think you have found the problem.

Phil,
I did find this condition strange. The big end of the rod to crank clearances were the same for all cylinders. Just that one rod rocked about 1/4". The wrist pin bushing obviously failed. That allowed the piston to slap in line with the wrist pin. This piston did not collapse. All 6 were re-sized and are back in the engine. This engine ran fairly well until the knock showed up. It did need a valve job.

I put about 50 miles on it today to start breaking it in. It runs a ton better than on the Maine tour or the two Florida bashes that it has been to. I did dial in too much timing advance. That caused a hot start problem and I have an exhaust leak to address. Otherwise all is good.

[BILL WZOREK]

Chuck ~ That sounds great !!

[chuck stevens]

Looks great Chuck, even though I'm a v8 guy, I think you have something special with that six. My dad had a 54 two door with a six. He always said the six goes fast enough- don't need a v8!! Keep up the good work maybe we'll see you in Florida, Chuck S.

[Cecil/WV]

My dad had a '54 six cyl Ford when I was in my teens. One day I was going down a hill pretty fast when I heard a loud bang from the engine, i kicked in the clutch and drifted a bit, then I let the clutch out and heard another bang. Towed it home and pulled the engine and found the crank broke in two places.

[41ford1]

Cecil, thanks for that bit of info. That is something I do not want to think about! LOL

[BILL WZOREK]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Chuck I haven't forgot you Just not enough time in the day.
Ducks that I am trying to get in a row keep jumping back into the pond.

[George49Ford]

For 41Ford1 - I am no where in your league as far as working on engines. But a million years ago I had a Chevy 6 that developed a knock that sounded for all the world like a rod or main bearing. After replacing them all it turned out to be a broken tooth on the timing gear.

[Cecil/WV]

Originally Posted by 41ford1

Cecil, thanks for that bit of info. That is something I do not want to think about! LOL

Anything i can do to cheer you up!