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Old 03-03-2012, 06:48 PM   #1
JeffM
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Default 1927 Model A Phaeton?

Friday morning, i set off at 5 with my old mate Kev to go pick up his new Model A. It was to be a long 13 hour day, and we had a great time.
The car in question, was brought by Kev 5 odd years back, sight unseen. The farmer who owned it, had had it for 40 years, and had done lots to it, but had left it sitting in an open shed.
Heres what we found after the five hours it took to get there.



The farmer tells us thats its a 1927 Model A. Im thinking theres no such thing, but kept my mouth shut.
This thing has model T foot pedals, and handbrake.
We load it up "farm Style", and go over to visit the local Ford guru.



We get told its not a 27, but early 28. Im thinking this is more likely, but Kevs convinced its a 27. Kevs been playing with Model As for over 30 years, and owns 3 or 4 still.





So it was a long day, and i had a great time. Slept well that night, and on Saturday night, Kevs turns up, and he had taken the Phaeton over to the city that morning. He has a panel n paint guy over there, and left the car with him to get bodywork done.
While he was there, he goes to see another Ford guru, and they track the build dates to the 22 of October, 1927.
This will make it the only one in the country, but im still not totally convinced.
So can any of the experts here confirm or deny the date? Any help would be much valued. Thanks in advance gentlemen.
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:11 PM   #2
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

The MARC/MAFCA Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards book has a chapter just for the Early 1928's. It has many things to look for to date the phaeton. It is interesting to note that it states "1927 vehicles - October through December, 1927, from the biginning of production to Engine number 4186." I think this would refer to the American built Model A's. If the phaeton was built in Canada, the standards say that the first Model A was built in February 1928. If you had some serial numbers(frame/engine) I am sure some of the experts could help out. Only thing I can tell fromn the pictures is no door handles.
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

Jeff as explained , the 1st RHD,s were no made till Jan 1928, allow 3 months to get to NZ , So cannot be a 1927, I viewed the vehicle & while SOME features were AR most was later , June August 1928 at the earliest, The 1st 3 ever to reach Nelson Was MAY 28 & those 3 still exist today , The engine number i beleive was in the 30-s , pos been changed , The vehicle has early pedals ( Common) but does not have ar drums ,, only one wheel was AR. Others may see it in a differant light to me , & senior MAFCA judges can be wrong , trust me, Derek , autum is back in Nelson.
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

Thanks Richard, i meant to get engine number, but forgot. I'll try and get them.
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:18 PM   #5
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

Thanks Derek. Your input is much appreciated.
Interesting that the first three model As in to Nelson still exist. Thats very cool.
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:45 PM   #6
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

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It doesn't have the early style front cross member, the engine in this chassis is supported by a yolk and not bolted directly to the cross member as early A's were. But then the front cross member could have been modified as per service buletins or replaced.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

Ithink it does have the early cross member,as it appears to have the 2 ribs pressed in.It was just cut off for the later mount.Being a RHD model.I would guess that it came from Canada & was made starting in feb 28.It would be good to know the engine number.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:28 PM   #8
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

Ok, From what I can make out, It does not have the V.early type gas tank, Later type oil pan, Later power house style mount bracket, Later type brake rod & housing arm assy, Later style rear motor mounts.. That front motor mount is of the Early 28 type thru NOV.?? U.S. It is not one of the type used in 1927..Shocks & Arms ?? Some of the above may have been changed over the years, But all that ??..
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:55 PM   #9
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

See if you can find a frame number on the left side and on top of the frame around the cowl area. That will be an engine number as well. (Frame and engine number being the same.) No New Zealand vehicles had frame numbers except a few of the very "Early Cars". (The term 'AR' should be abolished). I have only ever seen two numbered frames and both were "Early Cars" which I restored for customers way back. They both matched the Canadian engine numbers. I did not note at the time just what the numbers were, but I do recall the frame being stamped with 'CA' etc. The amazing part to all this is the numbers were consecutive and quite low. Both cars are still in my area and still being driven today.
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:03 AM   #10
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

Probably the earliest Model A [[ not a complete car as yet] in New Zealand is owned by Bick. This is a Canadian roadster, engine CA67, body F95. It is not a '1927', as Canadian production began in Feb. '28. It would share some production features in common with the first US Model A's.
The first Model A's put on show here was 14th May 1928 with built up shipments after that date.
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Old 03-04-2012, 03:43 AM   #11
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

Awesome replies gentlemen.
We were told the front engine mount had been changed, which was a way to lesson engine vibration.
Derek did get a look at the engine number, and i think when he read it out, it started with CA. He thought it was possibly a later engine.
After this coming weekends swap meet, i may never see this again, but if it dosent sell, it may end up next to my 30 A in my shed while it gets worked on.
Im keen on this, as im enjoying working on mine, and even thought about getting into the resto side of model As. If i had a big workshop, id change careers.
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:21 AM   #12
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

Howdy Jeff,

First, this is a heck of a find. That body overall looks pretty dang good.

Fred brought up many points that show this phaeton not to be a very early '28.

We don't know if this gas tank is a very early one or even was on this car originally. Is it a strap gas tank? In other words, is the choke rod held up by a bracket made out of flat stock or is it a forged bracket?

I don't see any features on the engine that would make me feel that it was a very early one.

It is unfortunate that these photos pixilate so I can't see much detail. Do the brake rods have bosses on them? How did the brake system return to a neutral position? Is there a pin on the frame and a coiled spring attached to return the brake system to a neutral position?

A495 is the 260th body to come out of the Rouge Plant. Its four phaeton doors have no ribs for reinforcement on the inside. The door on this car that we can see has ribs.

The early rear motor mounts were in two pieces. This car has the second generation one piece rear moto mount with the "rectangular cutout" closer to the engine than the later ones.

It looks like the stanchion base would be horizontal in front. That is an earlier feature.

About the first 1,000 A's had a three piece front cross member. This one doesn't. Looks like the tabs were cut and a later front motor mount was added.

Are the rear backing plates smooth? What do the rear axle tubes look like? Smooth, no seam? What about the boss at the end of the running board bracket, is it round or oblong? Do the clamps that hold the frame to the rear spring have square or rounded corners? Does the front axle have a large script? Are the front spring perches curved or straight like most? Chassis and body numbers would help a lot.

There are many, many questions that need to be answered to center in on a time window during which this phaeton was built in. High quality photos looking for details would help.

The one answer right now is that is a very nice body.

Congrats.
Dean

Last edited by dean from bozeman; 03-04-2012 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:36 AM   #13
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

Dean, all 28-29 RHD choke rods passed through the forged mount for the steering column, between the column and the tank. There was no separate mount for the rod
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:30 AM   #14
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

Thanks Dave. I remember seeing that now that you mention it.

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Old 03-04-2012, 11:56 AM   #15
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

Engine serial numbers starting with CA are Canadian installed. Originally painted grey in color. If the axle housings have NO weld seems running longitudenaly along the housings, and the rear wheel backing plates have NO provision for emergency brakes, then possibly it may have been manufactured late in 1927.
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:03 PM   #16
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

I am like the other I see no evidence it is a very early car. By what I see I would say May or June of 28 at best. Still alot of details I am looking dor can not be seen in the pic's. The real test will be the frame serial number if you can read it. Then try to figure out what all has been changed. Still a nice find for a RHD. Rod
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:23 PM   #17
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

A couple of other observations I can see in the pictures is that one of the front backing plates has reinforcment ribs. Also, the forged hood shelf bracket has two holes, which would put it after late Feb, 1928.
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Old 03-04-2012, 04:24 PM   #18
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

anyway nice find and good luck with the restoration .Weather it be early , mid or late ....
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:28 PM   #19
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

Looks like the ratchet mechanism on the framerail in the first photo for the left hand (er, uh outboard ?) emergency brake handle so it was probably originally equipped with some version of the early braking system, although most likely not the earliest. But then again I know very little about changeover dates on the export stuff. the one thing I noticed first is that the cowl has the flange for the welting which says that its certainly not the earliest version. I'd guess probably a mid 28 car with a lot of parts that have been upgraded and changed over the years.

I'm curious about the pedals though. Any chance you could post better photos of them? I doubt that the LHD pedals could be installed on a RHD car, so unless they're some kind of odd early feature the only other thing I could imagine would be if someone had grafted standard pedal heads onto RHD pedals. Weren't the pedals for RHD cars all round headed?


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Old 03-04-2012, 08:19 PM   #20
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Default Re: 1927 Model A Phaeton?

dlshady. no , not all round many 28,s had the oval pedals here. not sure of cut off date,
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